Boris: I can cut rail fares and crowding on suburban lines

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philjo

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In Thursday's Evening Standard.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/boris-i-can-cut-rail-fares-and-crowding-on-suburban-lines-7581634.html

22 March 2012

Boris Johnson today promised to cut fares if he wins control of London’s suburban railways.

The Mayor said he could deliver a cheaper and more frequent service and bring an end to overcrowded trains and heaving platforms.

On the campaign trail in Wimbledon, he told the Evening Standard: “We think we can cut them. Overground rail has seen eye-watering fare increases. We think we can deliver a cheaper service.”

His pledge will be seen as an attempt to overshadow his Labour rival Ken Livingstone’s own fares policy of cutting Tube and bus fares by seven per cent — which critics say would result in huge cuts to infrastructure projects.

Mr Livingstone won a huge boost in the polls after he announced the policy in January — though the Mayor now appears to be back in the lead, with the latest poll showing an eight-point gap. It comes after Chancellor George Osborne promised more investment in London’s transport network in yesterday’s Budget.

This could include extending and improving services, new rolling stock and bigger, better platforms.

Mr Johnson has now set his sights on getting a greater say over how overground rail is run — with two franchises, Greater Anglia and South Eastern, up for renewal in 2014.

He is lobbying the Treasury and Department of Transport ahead of the five-year rail plan which will be published in June. Under the plan he could gain significant control of key routes. He would then “integrate” these lines with the Underground and makes efficiencies that would allow him to cut fares.

Mr Johnson said: “This is the next big thing. Everybody knows that suburban rail is overcrowded, the service isn’t good enough. It’s a massive opportunity to improve transport in London. We’re doing Crossrail and the Tube upgrade and expanding and improving suburban rail is the next thing.” He added: “If we’re given a say in running overground rail then actually we’ll be able to drive down fares.” Mr Johnson has submitted a document to the Government setting out where he would make improvements. Ministers are said to be “looking seriously” at the proposals, which include:

Longer trains at Wimbledon — trains that go via Kingston, Richmond and Clapham Junction to Waterloo would increase from eight carriages to 10. Station upgraded.

Selected Essex Thameside services extended from eight to 12 cars, providing up to 80 additional vehicles (Barking, Dagenham Dock and Rainham).

Lengthen peak South Eastern services from Kent Coast to Victoria from eight to 12 cars, providing an additional 16 vehicles (Bexley, Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Albany Park).

Lengthen half-hourly Southern service on the West London Line from four to eight cars.


Obviously trying to outdo Ken's pledge to cut tube fares.
 
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calc7

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Obviously trying to outdo Ken's pledge to cut tube fares.
Quite clever segment targeting - the suburban lines being the ones used by 'Outer London' commuters from leafy environs who are more likely to swing to Tory.
 

SS4

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Do we really believe old Boris? Of course not, they'll say anything to get elected and have catastrophic policy-related amnesia in office.

"Chancellor George Osborne promised more investment in London’s transport network in yesterday’s Budget."

In other words either Londoners will pay or the nation will pay.
 

Bungle73

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The big problem with the Mayor having control of those lines is that they run outside of Greater London, and people living outside of Greater London cannot vote for him!
 

ushawk

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Longer trains at Wimbledon — trains that go via Kingston, Richmond and Clapham Junction to Waterloo would increase from eight carriages to 10. Station upgraded.
Isnt this already being done ?

Selected Essex Thameside services extended from eight to 12 cars, providing up to 80 additional vehicles (Barking, Dagenham Dock and Rainham).

Lengthen peak South Eastern services from Kent Coast to Victoria from eight to 12 cars, providing an additional 16 vehicles (Bexley, Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Albany Park).
Where will the stock for this come from ?

Lengthen half-hourly Southern service on the West London Line from four to eight cars.
Again, wasnt this already planned to go to 8-car once Southern get the 377/5's and when platform extensions are complete. Also, Half-Hourly ? Where is it said that its going to go half-hourly ?

Without turning it into a fantasy topic, there was a news article yesterday about the lack of rail links from Gatwick, could start a service there and run it via the WLL to either Watford or MK and time it to run the opposite half-hour to the current service.

I can see other London "suburban" lines coming under the control of TFL though, and judging by the results so far of LOROL, it could work.
 

jopsuk

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The 10-car suburban project on SWT is nothing to do with TfL, funding wise, I thought? is this like him taking credit for the ELL?
 

island

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I'm not overly concerned about capacity on the Kent lines, but I would appreciate any price cuts that can genuinely be offered.

However, given Boris has spent two months saying that Ken's accounting for the fare cuts he was promising was bogus, it seems a bit dubious that he now says it's possible.
 

swt_passenger

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These are all planning assumptions that have been around a while , and not therefore new TfL initiatives ......
SWT's 10 car inner suburban isn't just a planning assumption - the infrastructure is a committed and contracted scheme, the contractor was announced last October...

But these claims and counter claims are pretty much as you'd expect - if Ken were still Mayor you can imagine London Rail would also be re-announcing the existing NR plans under his signature.

I'm interested in how people think the ELL opening should have been dealt with though. Any major local authority scheme, anywhere in the country, (at least any that took longer to build than a particular mayoral term), would almost certainly be ceremonially opened by the current Mayor at the time, rather than a previous Mayor. That's just how it works, surely? He's there as figure head of the GLA, and he's saying 'we the GLA' have organised this project?

I mean, will Lord Adonis open HS2, or will it be the Transport Secretary of the day?
 

bgstrowger

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"Lengthen peak South Eastern services from Kent Coast to Victoria from eight to 12 cars"?

Being a regular user of SET Kent coast services to and from VIC in peak time, I can say that a majority are already 12-car. The only one i know of is the 16.57 VIC- RAM/DVP which is 10-car.

Anyhoo, where would he get the powers to enact such a grand scheme?
 

ntg

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The big problem with the Mayor having control of those lines is that they run outside of Greater London, and people living outside of Greater London cannot vote for him!
This is my problem as well, it's not very democratic! I'm all up for London Overground running to my station at Potters Bar, but I'd like to think I have as much say over that as the people living 5 miles south of me in London. And there's little to say in defense to TOCs arguing that the Mayor and London Assembly has no authority to start acquiring all the suburban routes in the home countries should the time come.

I'd like to see it happen though.
 

whhistle

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Do we really believe old Boris? Of course not, they'll say anything to get elected and have catastrophic policy-related amnesia in office.
Obviously looking at this issue without prejudice or impartiality :roll:


But these claims and counter claims are pretty much as you'd expect - if Ken were still Mayor you can imagine London Rail would also be re-announcing the existing NR plans under his signature.
And anyone who thinks anything different is a fool.
 

bailey65

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If ken cuts fares by 7% that's all well and good but how will it be paid for there will either have to be a cut in infrastructure improvements or a fat hike in council tax then listen to londoners whinge.
 

Southern

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"Lengthen peak South Eastern services from Kent Coast to Victoria from eight to 12 cars"?

Being a regular user of SET Kent coast services to and from VIC in peak time, I can say that a majority are already 12-car. The only one i know of is the 16.57 VIC- RAM/DVP which is 10-car.

Anyhoo, where would he get the powers to enact such a grand scheme?
16:22 is still 8-car and a few morning peak services from Ramsgate/Dover.

To be honest, the message seems a little mixed as it talks about lengthening Kent Coast services but then has Bexley, Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Albany Park in brackets. As you probably know, Gillingham is the furthest destination where trains come from that stop/pass any of those stations in the morning/evening peak. The person who compiled that article probably doesn't even know life exists outside the M25! ;) Kent Coast to me has always been services heading to Dover/Ramsgate/Margate via Folkestone or Faversham - Margate/Ramsgate.
 

bgstrowger

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16:22 is still 8-car and a few morning peak services from Ramsgate/Dover.

To be honest, the message seems a little mixed as it talks about lengthening Kent Coast services but then has Bexley, Bexleyheath, Sidcup and Albany Park in brackets. As you probably know, Gillingham is the furthest destination where trains come from that stop/pass any of those stations in the morning/evening peak. The person who compiled that article probably doesn't even know life exists outside the M25! ;) Kent Coast to me has always been services heading to Dover/Ramsgate/Margate via Folkestone or Faversham - Margate/Ramsgate.
Ah, the good old 16.22, my usual train home :)

Frankly, I'd settle for a faster journey home, rather than a longer train, seeing as the journey time has increased by nearly 10 minutes since I started commuting from Whitstable.

That and move the departure of the 16.22 to Platform 2 so I don't have to walk so far ;)
 

Clip

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Stop it. Now.

There is no way this would work. As has been outlined too many conflicting journeys and there is no way people outside the boundary would like anything that increased their journey time - which this will.
 

Class377/5

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Anyone else notice that Boris is pledging to lengthen Southern services on the "Brighton Main Line to 12 cars".

Seriously if he gonna try and get credit for that he really is out of his mind. Even trying to get 12 cars on the Thameslink I could understand (but never agree), but Southern's?
 

SS4

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Anyone else notice that Boris is pledging to lengthen Southern services on the "Brighton Main Line to 12 cars".

Seriously if he gonna try and get credit for that he really is out of his mind. Even trying to get 12 cars on the Thameslink I could understand (but never agree), but Southern's?
People have very short memories. I reckon it would be pretty easy to deflect credit from a TOC seen as poor or even incompetent to the Mayor of London via TfL for the largely successful overground.

I wonder why the chancellor is making more money available. Surely there are more places that need it?
 

Robbies

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SWT's 10 car inner suburban isn't just a planning assumption - the infrastructure is a committed and contracted scheme, the contractor was announced last October...

But these claims and counter claims are pretty much as you'd expect - if Ken were still Mayor you can imagine London Rail would also be re-announcing the existing NR plans under his signature.

I'm interested in how people think the ELL opening should have been dealt with though. Any major local authority scheme, anywhere in the country, (at least any that took longer to build than a particular mayoral term), would almost certainly be ceremonially opened by the current Mayor at the time, rather than a previous Mayor. That's just how it works, surely? He's there as figure head of the GLA, and he's saying 'we the GLA' have organised this project?

I mean, will Lord Adonis open HS2, or will it be the Transport Secretary of the day?
Certainly the Wimbledon ten car trains is going to happen as it is mixing of the coaches within the Juniper 458's and 460's which are going to be moved from the London - Reading route with the HC capacity Desiro's in there place taking over. This has been an idea with SWT for the last two years with approval given last year for the go - ahead for those plans to take shape.

People have very short memories. I reckon it would be pretty easy to deflect credit from a TOC seen as poor or even incompetent to the Mayor of London via TfL for the largely successful overground.

I wonder why the chancellor is making more money available. Surely there are more places that need it?
The order for the new 377 coaches has been made to Bombardier all ready for Southern to have the extra trains. Thi spoint makes me laugh as the 12 car trains on the Brighton would have happened a few years ago, if Southern had not been forced to passover the new Class 377 trains that they ordered to FCC. Southern in a few years time, will be part of Thameslink and Thameslink will be getting new Siemens Desiro trains, so what will happen to the surplus class 377 trains I wonder?
 
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Class377/5

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People have very short memories. I reckon it would be pretty easy to deflect credit from a TOC seen as poor or even incompetent to the Mayor of London via TfL for the largely successful overground.

I wonder why the chancellor is making more money available. Surely there are more places that need it?
Sounds like using short memory to lie about your campaign promise to me. Worth a offical complaint.

Certainly the Wimbledon ten car trains is going to happen as it is mixing of the coaches within the Juniper 458's and 460's which are going to be moved from the London - Reading route with the HC capacity Desiro's in there place taking over. This has been an idea with SWT for the last two years with approval given last year for the go - ahead for those plans to take shape.



The order for the new 377 coaches has been made to Bombardier all ready for Southern to have the extra trains. Thi spoint makes me laugh as the 12 car trains on the Brighton would have happened a few years ago, if Southern had not been forced to passover the new Class 377 trains that they ordered to FCC. Southern in a few years time, will be part of Thameslink and Thameslink will be getting new Siemens Desiro trains, so what will happen to the surplus class 377 trains I wonder?
12 car running exists prior to the ordering of the 377/5. Are you talking about the plan for 10 railway? The original idea was to use the 377/5 and the 377/3 to create 10 cars (now which is going to be filled by the 377/6 fleet). 377/5 were never for an 12 car train lengthing as it already exists!


The 377/5 are reversed for upping the Milton Keynes service from am 4 car 1tph service to an 8 car 2tph. Current 1tph requires 5 trains, so to go 8 car and double frequency will need nearer 20 units. The rest of the units will be in a common pool like all the 377/2 currently are.
 

mister-sparky

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Without turning it into a fantasy topic, there was a news article yesterday about the lack of rail links from Gatwick, could start a service there and run it via the WLL to either Watford or MK and time it to run the opposite half-hour to the current service.
lack of paths between east croydon and gatwick will make this option a definite no no. unless they divert an existing victoria service, which is 99% not gonna happen.
 

ert47

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He is lobbying the Treasury and Department of Transport ahead of the five-year rail plan which will be published in June. Under the plan he could gain significant control of key routes. He would then “integrate” these lines with the Underground and makes efficiencies that would allow him to cut fares.
By "integrate", does he mean "convert the sub-surface lines to 3rd rail and then run through services"? :lol:
 

Chris M

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I wonder why the chancellor is making more money available. Surely there are more places that need it?
Because the Tory leadership want Boris as mayor. Not to have someone of the same political persuasion, but because they really don't want him making a bid for Cameron's job.
 
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