Boris unveils the first roadworthy Borismaster

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by Ivo, 4 Nov 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ivo

    Ivo Established Member

    Messages:
    7,308
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Bath (or Southend)
    Apologies if this has been covered already, but I can't see anything suggesting as much.

    (from the TfL site: New bus for London)

    There is also a time-lapse video of it under construction and plenty of specifications for anyone interested.
     
    Last edited: 4 Nov 2011
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. trentside

    trentside Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    3,166
    Joined:
    14 Aug 2010
    Location:
    The back cab
    I'd hoped this daftness would have been put to bed by now.

    I've forgotten what the cost per bus is, but I believe it to be significantly higher than a standard double deck vehicle or articulated bus. What do you get for that? Something that looks hideous, with exceptionally poor seating capacity of only 62 (40/22).

    The other major issue with these, they have no prospects outside of London when it comes for them to be retired. I don't believe these could possibly be another Routemaster in the making - the world has moved on. With ever changing accessibility and emissions regulations they will be ousted from the streets (providing they get there in any significant numbers) before you know it.

    Frankly the whole thing is farcical and I'm amazed it's got this far.
     
  4. mbonwick

    mbonwick Established Member

    Messages:
    6,077
    Joined:
    26 Oct 2006
    Location:
    Milnthorpe (Nr. Kendal)
    We'll just have to hope Boris doesn't remain as mayor!
     
  5. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,082
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    Are all the lights LED lamps?

    Does it have air conditioning?

    Given the futuristic design, why couldn't they have developed a high-definition LED display to allow TfL to finally accept the replacement of the blinds for something that would offer as good legibility as we have now (or even more, as the LEDs would make the displays easier to read from a distance)?

    Otherwise, all we have is a bus with an odd looking seating arrangement and weird exterior - which may attract tourists but serves little actual purpose and will no doubt date incredibly quickly.

    As said above, how will these be cascaded to rural operators? I use buses that are ex-London buses, but doubt they'll buy these things.

    On the other hand, I recently went on one of the new hybrid 73 buses, and that's a great bus. Ran on electric power for a lot of the time (in traffic, when idle at stops), has air con upstairs, nice seating and - well, a perfectly good bus that is 'off the shelf' so-to-speak.
     
  6. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

    Messages:
    4,988
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2009
    Location:
    Between Edinburgh and Exeter
    ...At least the first lot are to be built by Wrights, so they won't fall apart / shake themselves to death as quickly as our well known scottish builder - Our 08 plate Enviros are AWFUL! :-x :lol:
     
  7. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    8,944
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    This photo of the unveiling says it all:

    [​IMG]

    more video of the launch with boris behind the wheel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0pXnprQvSA

    Also at a time the rail industry is facing a major cost cutting program these buses employ a seperate conductor, if just 10% of London buses were these models they would cost another £54m a year to operate. Tfl is saying that to keep costs down they will run most with no conductor, but that would mean that the extra doors would have to be locked, making the whole thing a total waste of money.
     
  8. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    22,841
    Joined:
    4 Feb 2010
    Even if Boris gets ousted at the next election, we're stuck with these ugly monsters. The last thing we want is another episode of political struggle wasting millions replacing perfectly fine vehicles. They'll be on the streets for probably the next ten years or more. Embrace yourselves.
     
  9. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    8,944
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    Though thankfully London hasnt actually signed up to buy more than the prototypes....yet.
     
  10. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    Joined:
    22 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Evercreech Junction
    So the pendulum will swing once again, and Ken will scrap them (before, hopefully, too many of the things have been delivered) and, what, reintroduce artics? Was this the sole point of having a Mayor for London, so that they can use buses as a football?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That's the thing, isn't it; Wrights have invested so much in it, whereas the Bendy Buses were a drop in the ocean for Mercedes, who didn't have to spend anything in design and development of something specially for London, the city where conditions are so exceptional (:roll:) that they always have to have specially designed Buses. If the program was to be scrapped by a "new" Mayor, how much money would Wrights see going down the drain?
     
  11. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,753
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    isn't the current contract for only seven or so of them?
     
  12. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    Joined:
    22 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Evercreech Junction
    prototypes, yes, but considering the amount of design effort Wrights must have put in, I think they'd be decidedly disgruntled if Ken decided to use it as yet another political football.
     
  13. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,201
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2008
    Location:
    South Wales
    Nothing wrong with our enviro 200's in fact there are more on order including some new enviro 300's to replace our volvo b10m's which are due to be retired in early 2012.

    As for wrights yes they are ok, Although I would suggest you have a go on their new streetlite, I had a ride on a demostrator yesterday horrible thing, where is a solo when you want 1
     
  14. jamaal

    jamaal Member

    Messages:
    479
    Joined:
    20 Aug 2007
    Location:
    London
    It does have air conditioning as it has no opening windows. I think the original cost for 1 vehicle was evaluated at something silly like £1m but the price would be significantly reduced when ordered in bulk. To be honest, I don't like this thing, its ugly, non-practical and just another media stunt in a desperate attempt for Boris Johnson to win over his critics.
     
  15. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,201
    Joined:
    19 Aug 2008
    Location:
    South Wales
    I agree. Horrible thing this Borimaster is.
     
  16. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,882
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Most London buses are "too old" after about ten years, and cascaded to "the provinces" where we have abandoned hope of regularly buying decent quantities of *new* buses in most towns/ cities.

    Fair enough, an ex London double decker can still last as long outside the capital - apart from the "odd position" of the staircase there's little difference to newer (non-London) buses.

    However, these brutes will be no use outside London.

    Which means either (1) London keeping buses in service till they are fifteen/twenty years old (despite the fact that they don't meet the newest emission standards for 2025 etc), or (2) scrapping mechanically sound buses half way through their working life (because of the daft bodywork).

    Aren't the Tories meant to be cutting down on daft public overspending?
     
  17. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,032
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Thank god I'm not the only one who doesn't see the problem with off the shelf too door double decker designs that will cost half as much and be able to be sold for twice as much as the're usable outside London!
     
  18. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,521
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Yes they'll have to remain in London until they are life expired. How will London cope knowing they can't cascade their old vehicles somewhere else and get nice new ones to replace them.

    Most children know for safety reasons you can't stand on the stairs or upstairs on a double decker, while on a bendy bus you can stand in both sections. Unfortunately, Boris didn't realise.
     
  19. Rational Plan

    Rational Plan Member

    Messages:
    228
    Joined:
    3 Aug 2011
    These buses are the latest generation hybrids, the engine will charge the batteries, which drive electric motors for the wheels. I expect the bus may be a key component in driving down particulates in the centre of the city. A key aspect for avoiding fines from Europe. So no these buses will not have problems meeting future atr standards. The design is a just a shell, the key technology is the engines. I imagine they will also produce a two door version for the inner suburbs in the near future. Well see how much two staircases matter to loading speed.
     
  20. Daimler

    Daimler Established Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    5 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Hertfordshire
    The cost per bus is reported to be comparable (perhaps marginally more) than other double-deck buses using similar hybrid technology. Of course, these first few will have cost a lot more than that, as they are shouldering much of the development cost for the new bus. Once full-scale production has started, the average cost should fall to an acceptable level.

    Regarding the bus in general, while I'm not sure London needed a bespoke bus to suit the city (and one of dubious use elsewhere in the country at that), I personally think that it's a great design, both from a visual and a technical point of view - figures show it to be significantly more environmentally friendly than either conventional or other hybrid buses*.

    * Conventional Double-Decker: 5.8mpg, Current Hybrids: 8.6mpg, NBFL: 11.6mpg [source]
     
  21. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    23,082
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    Well, silly as the idea was, if they are air conditioned and the seats are comfortable; I actually think they'll be okay for most people (ignoring the cost and politics).

    They'll have some attraction for visitors (or even people from the rest of the UK) and the environment will be far more comfortable in the summer for passengers who suffer hugely (especially upstairs) when stuck in traffic.

    Hopefully it also means an end to the damp conditions when a bus ends up all misted up in the winter.

    Nevertheless, they could have added aircon to any exiting new builds of current design buses that seem to do the job here and abroad! Will these new buses be a lot better than the hybrid buses Arriva just introduced on the 73 route?
     
    Last edited: 5 Nov 2011
  22. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,509
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    It looks even better than the mock-up and cannot wait to see these on the streets. Hopefully TfL will ensure this is of top quality and better than those rattling and shaking 'off the shelf' designs.

    London does need its own unique design as continental designs are generally unsuitable on London roads and regional stage-carriage traffic is of a different nature, and typically far less busy. Although saying that with more and more local authorities and PTEs wishing to start up their own statutory quality schemes they could use these vehicles elsewhere?
     
  23. 90019

    90019 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,513
    Joined:
    29 May 2008
    Location:
    Edinburgh/Leeds
    Just like all the other news hybrids then.

    What has suddenly changed to require a bespoke design?
    Other than stupid looking bodywork, what exactly is there inside that's not available on any other design?

    I find it highly unlikely that this design will make it beyond London.
     
  24. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,509
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    Nothing has changed (aside from the huge growth in passenger numbers) but the current 'off the shelf' vehicles are unsuitable on a lot of the routes.

    To misquote one of my most hated platitudes...
    "If it's broke... then hurry up and fix it!"
     
  25. 90019

    90019 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,513
    Joined:
    29 May 2008
    Location:
    Edinburgh/Leeds
    So, if this new design is needed, how have they managed up until now without it?

    Why?
     
  26. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,509
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    They haven't! Whilst many are trying to bury their heads in the sand and pretend a problem doesn't exist, TfL are attempting to try something new and deliver a brilliant new bus.

    Loading times are too slow, boarding/alighting is not possible anywhere other than bus stops, the amount of standing space is insufficient, many of the vehicles make a racket, and so on.

    With the abolition of bendy buses which helped to resolve many of those problems, but caused many more, then something else was needed.
     
  27. 90019

    90019 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,513
    Joined:
    29 May 2008
    Location:
    Edinburgh/Leeds
    This requires a bus with less seating than a normal bus, 2 staircases to take up even more space, and with 3 different types of door just to increase the maintainance cost, does it?
     
  28. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    Joined:
    22 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Evercreech Junction
    What exactly is so exceptional about London that they need to have everything specially designed? I think really, in most other cities the congestion is no worse than it ever was in London (the Congestion Charge was just a way to generate money for TfL, rather than being something that was needed because it was so bad in london). Is not being able to hop on & off between stops not a desirable thing in London, but just something that they have to put up with in Manchester, Bristol, Glasgow etc?
     
  29. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,753
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    the drive train IS essentially off-the-shelf, in that it is the latest version of the same hybrid drive train already common in London.

    The chances of that rear platform being open between stops is still low...
     
  30. dggar

    dggar Member

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2011
    Everywhere else manages
     
  31. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,509
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    Where else has such a high passenger volume?

    Does everywhere else manage; or would they rather in fact have an open platform?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page