Boris unveils the first roadworthy Borismaster

[90019]

Where else has such a high passenger volume?

How does a bus with less seating capacity and an extra staircase wasting space help with that?

Does everywhere else manage

Having travelled to large cities all over the world, I've yet to find anywhere that doesn't.

When other places want speedier boarding and alighting, they add an extra set of doors to the bus, rather than go for some awkward bespoke design that will add to building and maintainance costs, and will then end up being relatively worthless when they don't want them anymore.

 

[Mojo]

How does a bus with less seating capacity and an extra staircase wasting space help with that?

Because it allows for more standing room and easier routes up and down.

When other places want speedier boarding and alighting, they add an extra set of doors to the bus, rather than go for some awkward bespoke design that will add to building and maintainance costs, and will then end up being relatively worthless when they don't want them anymore.

Existing vehicles already have two different types of doors and this design is adding additional doors, there will be three instead of two.

It's a bit premature to be talking about them not being required any more, as a design like this will probably last longer on the streets than existing designs. Most London routes have two doors yet most operators outside of London only have one and this doesn't pose a problem, operators for many years have managed to remove the exit doors.

 

[DarkestDreams]

I quite like these new busses, and I don't see why they couldn;t be used outside of London. Just remove the middle door and have a one staircase up/one staircase down policy. Would definitely reduce wait times in other cities too, no?

I do however wonder why London didn't use double deckers with a long wheelbase instead of normal ones; surely it would be a good compromise between loss of the large downstairs standing capacity of an arctic and the need for double deckers?

 

[WatcherZero]

Because they need a second member of staff on the bus to operate the rear doors, nevermind the middle doors.

 

[DarkestDreams]

Because they need a second member of staff on the bus to operate the rear doors, nevermind the middle doors.

No they don't - that member of staff is only needed if they are in 'always open' mode. The driver can operate them normally at all other times.

 

[mbonwick]

I'd hardly call a B9TL/Olympus a long wheelbase vehicle!

 

[tbtc]

These buses are the latest generation hybrids, the engine will charge the batteries, which drive electric motors for the wheels. I expect the bus may be a key component in driving down particulates in the centre of the city. A key aspect for avoiding fines from Europe. So no these buses will not have problems meeting future atr standards. The design is a just a shell, the key technology is the engines. I imagine they will also produce a two door version for the inner suburbs in the near future. Well see how much two staircases matter to loading speed.

These buses will be stuck in London for twenty years, double the normal time that a bus spends in the capital before it is "too old".

We have no idea of how technology will change over those years (e.g. twenty years ago the concept of a "low floor" bus was still just a concept).

Strange how Birmingham/ Manchester/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc have managed with normal buses all this time...

 

[Blindtraveler]

interesting you highlight edinburgh, a city where the bus is king. discounting the 1 route which, some day, wil have trams on it we manage fine with 1 door busses of an off the shelf design.

Some of our early tridents had 2 doors but many were converted and since we have been a 1 door city. I dont use busses in London much but dont see theres a need for this particularly in cash strapped brittain and also because they have less seats!

That said I wate with an open mind to see the results wgen some are out. i think however many opperaters will be reluctant to order as they are used to cascading X London stock elsewhere so this will put up there costs surely? also how much is it likely to cost to convert these for out of London use?

 

[kylemore]

A total farce, all this money to produce a standard DD with an open platform which will remain closed almost all of the time. Idiots with a never ending supply of taxpayers/borrowed money - just about sums up the UK.

 

[Blindtraveler]

can somebody in the know here (mojo maybe) tel us when they DO intend using the platform? if it can and sounds like it can and wil be closed much of the time. Thanks

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I agree. Horrible thing this Borimaster is.

It would look a lot better instantly if only they'd paint the whole front under the windscreen red instead of having that black diagonal section; that's what really ruins it.

The shape itself, once you ignore the black area, is somewhat reminiscent of the old trolleybuses.

 

[DarkestDreams]

One thing that does bug me; one reason for arctic withdrawal was fare evasion, so why can you board the new bus at any door?

 

[anthony263]

One thing that does bug me; one reason for arctic withdrawal was fare evasion, so why can you board the new bus at any door?

The rear open section is supposed to be closed off when the buses are in use overnight, early mornings etc, basically when there are no conducters onboard

 

[pemma]

Strange how Birmingham/ Manchester/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc have managed with normal buses all this time...

Other places don't tend to have a 'one bus for all routes' type approach - while London isn't literally like that it's close.

There's also something called common sense applied. For instance, bendy buses operate on First Manchester's Manchester-Bury services (which go near JD Sport's head office which Metrolink doesn't) but bendy buses aren't seen on the busy Oxford Road corridor, where most buses are double deckers and increasingly a number of buses on that route are hybrid that use battery power when travelling under 15mph.

Boris decided 'no bendy buses in London' without even looking at the different London routes in detail.

 

[Electrostar]

Friday's report on ITV's London Tonight clearly showed an abundance of Oyster readers on poles inside the bus. Considering one of Boris's many criticisms of the bendy bus was potential for fraud it does seem mad that the Boris Bus will be allowing the same opportunities. Remember the second member of the bus crew is unlikely to be a conductor but a "uniformed presence" which sounds to me like a hop-on-hop-off inspector.

On the same programme Boris clearly claimed the bus would sell abroad. I'm not so sure.

I can't find the London Tonight report online but this is from UTV.
http://www.u.tv/News/Wrightbus-gets-thumbs-up-from-Boris/c7fc8553-cc36-4913-9c39-80a1d841e620

 

[Ivo]

On the same programme Boris clearly claimed the bus would sell abroad. I'm not so sure.

Anyone know of any plans for a single-deck version...?

 

[Electrostar]

I don't know much about buses but from seeing three-door buses in some European cities I guess a single-deck version could sell abroad albeit converted to left-hand drive.

Boris's team aren't stupid. They know this retro-styled bus will debut just before the Mayoral Election and it will be hailed as a London icon in time for the Olympics. We won't find out if it copes or not for several months after when the full extent of the three-door, rear platform, dual staircase and fraud will be assessed. I expect the second crewman to be visible for the first few months before cut back to a hop-on-hop-off role this time next year.

 

[DarkestDreams]

The rear open section is supposed to be closed off when the buses are in use overnight, early mornings etc, basically when there are no conducters onboard

Yes, but you can also board at the middle door it seems - this video shows Oyster readers at every door. Also, isn't the rear platform door still going to be used at night, albeit operated by the driver at bus stops? If you can board the bus at all three doors, then the fave evasion argument falls flat.

 

[lookingforit35]

The "nostalgia" routes still ocassionally operated by Routemasters (I use the 15 infrequently) are a fantastic study in why open platforms work so well.

They quite often catch up with the more modern designs because of the speed in which passengers get on and off. Plus you can decide to abandon ship if the traffic is exceptionally heavy to walk instead.

And as a Brucie bonus, it's often amusing to see tourists run after them when they accelerate away.

 

[90019]

Some of our early tridents had 2 doors but many were converted and since we have been a 1 door city.

There are still a few dual door Tridents kicking about, but there aren't many left now.

 

[Blindtraveler]

thought theyd all gone in the latest atack of the geminis? Not that im grumbling, hate them!

 

[bb21]

I imagine they will also produce a two door version for the inner suburbs in the near future. Well see how much two staircases matter to loading speed.

I quite like these new busses, and I don't see why they couldn;t be used outside of London. Just remove the middle door and have a one staircase up/one staircase down policy. Would definitely reduce wait times in other cities too, no?

The design of buses won't affect loading speed that much at the moment. The biggest factor contributing to loading times is the ticketing process. Unless off-bus ticketing is introduced in provincial areas it won't matter a jiffy how many staircases or doors a bus has.

Strange how Birmingham/ Manchester/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh etc have managed with normal buses all this time...

I think Mojo made a very valid point regarding the differing nature of passenger flow in London when compared to provincial areas. Unfortunately Boris decided that political spin is more important to him than looking at real life solutions. He had a solution already implemented in front of him, although not most appropriately for some routes. (I refer you to Route 73 as a prime example.) He decided that in times like these, it is better to start again from scratch rather than making good use of what is already there.

Other places don't tend to have a 'one bus for all routes' type approach - while London isn't literally like that it's close.

There's also something called common sense applied. For instance, bendy buses operate on First Manchester's Manchester-Bury services (which go near JD Sport's head office which Metrolink doesn't) but bendy buses aren't seen on the busy Oxford Road corridor, where most buses are double deckers and increasingly a number of buses on that route are hybrid that use battery power when travelling under 15mph.

Boris decided 'no bendy buses in London' without even looking at the different London routes in detail.

Well put, sir.

Boris's team aren't stupid. They know this retro-styled bus will debut just before the Mayoral Election and it will be hailed as a London icon in time for the Olympics.

That was the real reason behind the go-ahead given to this new development.

 

[krisk]

I like them. If only first Manchester would invest in air con vehicles

 

[Ivo]

As a thought, would these things do for University routes? High-speed loading with smartcard readers aplenty (to be part-funded by the University in question) with a fair degree of standing room for higher capacity where required. The only problem for me is that they won't get under Lower Oldfield Park bridge unless they're the absolute minimum decker height of 13'8" (or lower still?)...

 

[Deerfold]

As a thought, would these things do for University routes? High-speed loading with smartcard readers aplenty (to be part-funded by the University in question) with a fair degree of standing room for higher capacity where required. The only problem for me is that they won't get under Lower Oldfield Park bridge unless they're the absolute minimum decker height of 13'8" (or lower still?)...

Surely they won't have higher capacity as they'll have another staircase.

The only way I can see that speeding things up appreciably is if we had a one-way system in the bus with everyone boarding and leaving in the sme direction. I doubt that's going to happen in London. Otherwise it's a more expensive lower capacity ugly version of a modern hybrid double decker.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe the next version of the Boris bus will be longer, to keep the same seating numbers with the extra doors and staircases.

They could possibly make it bend in the middle...

 

[lemonic]

As a thought, would these things do for University routes? High-speed loading with smartcard readers aplenty (to be part-funded by the University in question) with a fair degree of standing room for higher capacity where required. The only problem for me is that they won't get under Lower Oldfield Park bridge unless they're the absolute minimum decker height of 13'8" (or lower still?)...

Bendy buses seem to suit these requirements perfectly! Not necessarily the new Routemasters though...

 

[Via Bank]

The "nostalgia" routes still ocassionally operated by Routemasters (I use the 15 infrequently) are a fantastic study in why open platforms work so well.

They quite often catch up with the more modern designs because of the speed in which passengers get on and off. Plus you can decide to abandon ship if the traffic is exceptionally heavy to walk instead.

And as a Brucie bonus, it's often amusing to see tourists run after them when they accelerate away.

I am a regular user of the 15 and can attest to this: especially during the evening peak on the section east of Aldwych, it's often a little quicker to wait a couple of minutes for a RM, because it'll usually overtake a couple of regular 15s en-route. Plus, there are usually more seats available (with the exception of the middle of the day on weekends, because they're always packed with tourists who try and pay the clippie as soon as they get on.)

Of course, whether or not this speed will be matched with the Borismaster remains to be seen: the front and middle doors will still need to be opened (by the driver) and then closed, and the second crew member will need (presumably) to give the driver two bells before she's allowed to set off.

If there was an enforced (or even de facto) policy of "exit via the rear door wherever possible", this problem could be obviated a little: if you have an open platform, alighting passengers can safely queue to get off, and then hop off the very second that the bus is moving at a safe speed (before it's even stopped, usually.) This is better than current double-deckers, where most passengers remain in their seat and then have to barge their way through a dozen or so standing passengers after the doors have opened.

For passenger flows, I'd say the Borismaster is built on very sensible principles, but we'll need to wait for it to arrive in London and work a few 38s in the peak hour to see if it's worth it in practice. Of course, I doubt this will have any major effect on the future of the bus: if Ken is elected, he'll consign the prototypes to the LTM as a symbol of a previous administration; if Boris retains his position, he'll plough gleefully onwards, and by 2015 there will be armies of scarlet-coloured humming Milk Trays on London's streets, for better or for worse.

 

[cainebj]

If there was an enforced (or even de facto) policy of "exit via the rear door wherever possible", this problem could be obviated a little: if you have an open platform, alighting passengers can safely queue to get off, and then hop off the very second that the bus is moving at a safe speed (before it's even stopped, usually.) This is better than current double-deckers, where most passengers remain in their seat and then have to barge their way through a dozen or so standing passengers after the doors have opened.

Then you get Health & Safety sticking their noses in, saying that passengers must remain seated until the bus has stopped, to prevent an accident. We had such an accident in Cumbria last year, a bus was approaching a bus stop, an old lady got up to alight, but the lorry in front of the bus suddenly braked heavilly, the bus went into the back of it, resulting in the old lady becoming injured, after falling over on impact.
It does make you question health & safety though, they say passengers must remain seated incase such an accident re-occurs, but how can a standee remain seated, when they are already stood up Answers on a postcard to the madness that is British Health & Safety. What is wrong with a good old piece of common sense?

 

[jon0844]

How about you just recommend people stay seated until the bus has come to a stop, but let people make up their own mind. If they ignore the advice, they accept responsibility for their own actions and common sense prevails.

The ambulance chasers can then bugger off and get a real job.

We all do silly things every now and then, but in most cases, it's our own fault and we shouldn't look to cash in by blaming someone else.

In reality, most Health & Safety rules are based on common sense, and it's usually the people who misinterpret the guidelines/laws and come up with stupid 'just in case' rules that are unnecessary.