Borismaster: the future

[hst43102]

Three door rigid single deckers are (or have been, I can't find a nearside photo of the current ones) used on the "Red Arrows", but I think that's it unless you count bendies. I'm not aware of any other three door double deckers - Berlin is the preserve of those.

Interesting. Singapore has recently placed orders for hundreds of three door deckers - I was wondering if those would be suitable for London...

 

[Vespa]

I'd have thought that, for most Londoners, having the hopper fare and fare freeze actually meant more than a zip wire and having one of the most expensive buses in the UK both to buy and to run.

Anyone could have done that, it's easy to do, there's nothing permanent or long reaching done. Khan is defined by how little he has done.

 

[MotCO]

Three door rigid single deckers are (or have been, I can't find a nearside photo of the current ones) used on the "Red Arrows", but I think that's it unless you count bendies. I'm not aware of any other three door double deckers - Berlin is the preserve of those.

Are you saying the rigid Citaros, Nationals or Merlins used on Red Arrrows had three doors? I only remember the artic Citaros as having three doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you saying the rigid Citaros, Nationals or Merlins used on Red Arrrows had three doors? I only remember the artic Citaros as having three doors.

I believe the rigid Citaros were three-door but I could be wrong, it might be the current vehicles. I can't find any nearside photos!

 

[MotCO]

I believe the rigid Citaros were three-door but I could be wrong, it might be the current vehicles. I can't find any nearside photos!

Here's one!

*Special Livery* Go Ahead London, Red Arrow (London General) | Route 507, MBA50 (MEC50) BT09GPJ - Victoria Bus Station.

Explore AL6NT.'s 2749 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

(Not my photo; photo shows nearside of Citaro on route 507 in London, with only two doors on the nearside.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers, I remember wrong then!

 

[GusB]

Could we remain on topic please?

 

[Snow1964]

Some trial modifications have apparently been tried out on LT149, but I don’t know what.

LVF shows this bus (allocated to Abellio) hasn’t been used in service since December 2019 (nearly 15 months ago), so unless it had major damage (eg accident), there must be a reason for its continuing absence

Anyone know where it is or what is happening with it

 

[MotCO]

The New Routemaster has been in service for almost 10 years. Whilst some would see it as a vanity project of Boris, the fact is there are 1,000 buses in London which probably will not see service anywhere else. The bus is a hybrid and introduced when such buses were still fairly new and innovative. Since then, electric buses have become the norm.

Two questions:

1. What will happen when they are time expired?
2. Could they be converted to battery power - Magitec have converted some buses, why not the New Routemaster?

Ultimately, Sadiq Khan will probably want to get rid of them as soon as possible since they were a Boris idea, but Boris holds some sway over TfL because of their funding crisis, so may instruct Khan to keep the buses (whether or not converted to battery power) as part of a future funding agreement. It may be a cheaper option to convert them in order to introduce full electric powered buses.

Any views?

 

[JonathanH]

Boris holds some sway over TfL because of their funding crisis, so may instruct Khan to keep the buses (whether or not converted to battery power) as part of a future funding agreement

No way does the Prime Minister have the power to require TfL to use the NBfL vehicles. The treasury may well make it difficult to fund their replacements, but only in an indirect way through any future settlement.

As you note, further developments in bus building technology may make it cheaper for operators to buy new vehicles, than run converted NBfL vehicles.

One of the reasons the programme came to an end was because the private operators / bus manufacturers had moved some of the concepts into the mainstream market.

 

[SynthD]

It’s not right to ‘predict’ that if Khan is told it’s economically efficient to dump them, then people should assume he took an anti Johnson decision himself. We won’t get there and they’ll just adapt them cheaply, thanks to someone cutting their subsidy away.

 

[Sm5]

Either way they will be in scrap piles after many years sooner than the old Routemaster.

It’s not right to ‘predict’ that if Khan is told it’s economically efficient to dump them, then people should assume he took an anti Johnson decision himself.

it might not be, but thats the way it will be percieved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As they already have electric transmission, it would strike me that conversion to battery power would be feasible (or even hydrogen fuel cells with a pod on the roof). They don't seem knackered.

 

[A0wen]

As they already have electric transmission, it would strike me that conversion to battery power would be feasible (or even hydrogen fuel cells with a pod on the roof). They don't seem knackered.

The oldest ones are coming up on their 10th birthday - the approach of stripping down and rebuilding buses a la London Transport with the RTs and RMs has gone completely out of fashion.

It would be cheaper to simply buy a new battery / hyrbid design and build in the design features i.e. the Routemaster 'look' with a carefully specified body.

Either way they will be in scrap piles after many years sooner than the old Routemaster.

The old Routemaster should never have lasted as long as they did though - that was simply LT intransigence that lead to that. When every other city in the UK had managed to move to modern OMO buses, LT insisted on running antiques because it couldn't manage the change needed to adapt to modern buses.

Much as I liked the old RMs - the reality shouldn't be ignored about why they lasted as long as they did and indeed outlasted the Daimler Fleetline in London - the latter being a robust chassis that pretty much every city and corporation had bought and successfully run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The oldest ones are coming up on their 10th birthday - the approach of stripping down and rebuilding buses a la London Transport with the RTs and RMs has gone completely out of fashion.

It would be cheaper to simply buy a new battery / hyrbid design and build in the design features i.e. the Routemaster 'look' with a carefully specified body.

This is a fair point - indeed, the ADL Enviro400 City pretty much looks like one, bar the rear staircase and door.

 

[overthewater]

If the buses are still working fine, what is the problem? If they can operate another 5 maybe 7 years then I see no real problem.

 

[Sm5]

The old Routemaster should never have lasted as long as they did though - that was simply LT intransigence that lead to that. When every other city in the UK had managed to move to modern OMO buses, LT insisted on running antiques because it couldn't manage the change needed to adapt to modern buses.

i beg to differ, much of the world runs on old technology. Its just western countries that bins useful stuff when it goes out of fashion.

LT maximised its use.
Not that it maximised its use of everything else.. 1980’s Titans didnt make it, though the MCW‘s seemed to be around a long time.

The problem we have now is too much money spent in boutique bespoke luxury thats delicate, restrictive and high cost… when the wind changes (as it is) we end up financially broke as well as boutiquely broke and struggle....

On a wider topic that could be the treasuries way of managing this on railways.. when the money runs out, use your toys much less, rotate them to make them last longer…but rot sets in eventually.

 

[GusB]

Post #69 onwards were moved here from a separate thread

 

[A0wen]

i beg to differ, much of the world runs on old technology. Its just western countries that bins useful stuff when it goes out of fashion.

LT maximised its use.
Not that it maximised its use of everything else.. 1980’s Titans didnt make it, though the MCW‘s seemed to be around a long time.

The problem we have now is too much money spent in boutique bespoke luxury thats delicate, restrictive and high cost… when the wind changes (as it is) we end up financially broke as well as boutiquely broke and struggle....

On a wider topic that could be the treasuries way of managing this on railways.. when the money runs out, use your toys much less, rotate them to make them last longer…but rot sets in eventually.

Just not true - the running costs of an 80s Olympian were getting on for half that of a traditional RM by the time ypu cover the Olympian's better fuel economy ~20% better and lower manning costs of 1 man vs 2. The Olympian (and its contemporaries) offered a better passenger environment as well with 2 wide doors and better accessibility.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the buses are still working fine, what is the problem? If they can operate another 5 maybe 7 years then I see no real problem.

They're being deprecated over 14 years and because TfL owns they need to sweat the assets and use them for at least 14 years. The assumption is that they'll have no resale value.

The current refurbishment programme is at midlife.

 

[johncrossley]

The old Routemaster should never have lasted as long as they did though - that was simply LT intransigence that lead to that. When every other city in the UK had managed to move to modern OMO buses, LT insisted on running antiques because it couldn't manage the change needed to adapt to modern buses.

By the late 80s Routemasters were surely less than 10% of the fleet. They were still perceived to be useful on busy routes because modern buses were slow at boarding. There was still a culture of paying the driver in cash which slowed things down. Free boarding on modern buses could have ended the Routemaster sooner but faster boarding had to wait for the introduction of Oyster. After that the fast boarding reason for Routemasters was no longer relevant.

 

[WatcherZero]

The New Routemaster has been in service for almost 10 years. Whilst some would see it as a vanity project of Boris, the fact is there are 1,000 buses in London which probably will not see service anywhere else. The bus is a hybrid and introduced when such buses were still fairly new and innovative. Since then, electric buses have become the norm.

Two questions:

1. What will happen when they are time expired?
2. Could they be converted to battery power - Magitec have converted some buses, why not the New Routemaster?

Ultimately, Sadiq Khan will probably want to get rid of them as soon as possible since they were a Boris idea, but Boris holds some sway over TfL because of their funding crisis, so may instruct Khan to keep the buses (whether or not converted to battery power) as part of a future funding agreement. It may be a cheaper option to convert them in order to introduce full electric powered buses.

Any views?

It was a hybrid with lower fuel economy and higher emissions than existing pure diesels because of all the extra added weight.

 

[Goldfish62]

It was a hybrid with lower fuel economy and higher emissions than existing pure diesels because of all the extra added weight.

And more frequent battery replacement.

 

[Leki]

It was a hybrid with lower fuel economy and higher emissions than existing pure diesels because of all the extra added weigh

TfL didn’t seem to agree with you in 2014 so is that just an opinion?

New data shows that New Routemasters are almost 50 per cent more fuel efficient than predecessors

Source

 

[M803UYA]

Not that it maximised its use of everything else.. 1980’s Titans didnt make it, though the MCW‘s seemed to be around a long time.

The Titans achieved a 'normal' operating life in London - there were still A registered examples operating at 17/18 years old with London General which were seen off by low floor double deckers. The MCW Metrobus also achieved a long operational life of similar length to the Titan.

A number of Volvo Olympians didn't - thanks to the enthusiasm to convert everything to low floor operation. But those Olympians, like their DMS great grandparents found ready homes across the UK.

LT's issues with the DMS are fairly well documented - once those 'London' features were removed from the vehicles they became very reliable machines and highly sought after on the secondhand market.

 

[WatcherZero]

TfL didn’t seem to agree with you in 2014 so is that just an opinion?

Source

The engine was 50% better than routemaster buses built in the 50's and early 60's. Not by the standards of the buses in 2010's.
They stuck a low emission engine in, but with the fuel consumption and passenger capacity the per passenger emissions were atrocious.

The New Routemaster in real world conditions were getting about 6MPG vs 8MPG for Volvo and ADL double decker hybrids.
(a lot of that due to power hungry systems)

 

[Leki]

The engine was 50% better than routemaster buses built in the 50's and early 60's. Not by the standards of the buses in 2010's.
They stuck a low emission engine in, but with the fuel consumption and passenger capacity the per passenger emissions were atrocious.

The New Routemaster in real world conditions were getting about 6MPG vs 8MPG for Volvo and ADL double decker hybrids.
(a lot of that due to power hungry systems)

That doesn’t appear to be what TfL were claiming. I could be wrong but my interpretation was the comparison was with existing (standard 2010s) diesel buses

 

[WatcherZero]

"Compared to the previous buses that operated these routes". And they are Routemaster routes.

 

[Leki]

"Compared to the previous buses that operated these routes". And they are Routemaster routes.

Not in 2014 they weren’t, when the last of the testing on the “previous buses” was stated to have been done.

 

[WatcherZero]

Route 9 and 15 were still operating the original Routemaster until replaced by the new routemaster.

There was also the battery issue still to come after this report where almost all the batteries stopped holding a charge after a few months of use and they were operating straight diesel electric rather than off stored battery.

Finally the figures in the Tfl report were generated from rolling road testing at the Millbrook proving ground and wernt while carrying passengers with the power hungry air conditioning and heating on.