Borismaster: the future

[Goldfish62]

In which case I expect tender costs to rise for the contracts using NBfL when they are next out to tender. Maybe having to pay x pounds more (if operators tender a lower cost to run conventional hybrids) will focus minds such they they end up scrapped.

No. Battery replacement has not been a surprise. It's always been factored in from the start and is reflected in contract prices, apart from early routes where TfL paid for battery replacement.

Also, TfL specifies which routes are to use NRMs so the option to bid with alternative vehicles is not available.

I personally thought that all-electric buses would be concentrated in Central London, so if NBfL was retained for the central routes that would not be possible. However, is it possible to replace the diesel gubbins with more batteries, and convert the NBfL to all electric? That would solve both issues.

The bus is right on the weight limit for a twin axle double deck. For it to support the weight of batteries it would either have to gain a third axle or reduce passenger capacity to an unacceptable degree.

 

[Vespa]

I've only ever been on a Borismaster once, and I hope never to go on one again, it was boiling hot and loads of people just hopped on the back or middle doors without paying and went straight upstairs!

That's been stopped, it's front entry, rear exit only, this way you have to pay to get on, the middle and rear doors are open by the driver only if there is anybody getting off, I have noticed Boris Routemaster have regular revenue inspector sweeps especially in fare evasion hotspots.

I must be one of the few that actually like them, innovative design, rear staircase, smooth quiet ride, I can see them being a future design classic.

 

[Robertj21a]

No. Battery replacement has not been a surprise. It's always been factored in from the start and is reflected in contract prices, apart from early routes where TfL paid for battery replacement.

Also, TfL specifies which routes are to use NRMs so the option to bid with alternative vehicles is not available.


The bus is right on the weight limit for a twin axle double deck. For it to support the weight of batteries it would either have to gain a third axle or reduce passenger capacity to an unacceptable degree.

In which case, the interesting thing will be how tender prices might alter dependent on which specific batch of Borismasters an operator will be given for that route - are most/all due for imminent battery replacement (very expensive) or have they just been renewed?. Following on, what then happens at the 5 year stage if they are offered the 2 year extension for 'good conduct'. Presumably, an existing operator with buses due then for imminent battery renewal will have to adjust the tender accordingly - and take the risk of losing the contract. Whether or not that might be a risk worth taking will be down to a whole host of other factors, such as overall profitability, what other work they have, staffing issues, garage capacity etc etc
I bet most TfL operators wish the Borismaster had never been invented.

 

[Goldfish62]

I bet most TfL operators wish the Borismaster had never been invented.

TfL wishes the Borismaster had never been invented, but it wasn't their decision. All they could do was mitigate the craziest aspects of the design that the mayor had in mind.

In which case, the interesting thing will be how tender prices might alter dependent on which specific batch of Borismasters an operator will be given for that route - are most/all due for imminent battery replacement (very expensive) or have they just been renewed?. Following on, what then happens at the 5 year stage if they are offered the 2 year extension for 'good conduct'. Presumably, an existing operator with buses due then for imminent battery renewal will have to adjust the tender accordingly - and take the risk of losing the contract. Whether or not that might be a risk worth taking will be down to a whole host of other factors, such as overall profitability, what other work they have, staffing issues, garage capacity etc etc

It's really not a significant issue. The biggest aspect that affects tender prices is staff costs, which account for oner half of total costs.

Re battery replacement costing, this is no different to when operators offer existing conventional hybrids in their bids. bids

 

[MotCO]

I must be one of the few that actually like them, innovative design, rear staircase, smooth quiet ride, I can see them being a future design classic.

I'm one of the few as well - maybe there are more than just a few.

 

[gka472l]

I'm one of the few as well - maybe there are more than just a few.

Me too, I think they're great buses to travel on, and they will become a design classic in my opinion.....they do the job they were designed for very well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Me too, I think they're great buses to travel on, and they will become a design classic in my opinion.....they do the job they were designed for very well.

I quite like them too, and I think the idea of having something that looks "cool" to make public transport "cool" is money well spent. FWIW, I don't think the problem was in the bodyshell, though (other than the stupid non-specification of opening windows to start with), it was all the underlying stuff. Indeed, Alexander Dennis came up with the E400 City, which basically has most of the charm while being more conventional:

HA9, LK65 BZF

Arriva London E400H City HA9 passes Tower Hill whilst carrying a 78 service for Shoreditch Vehicle Details Operator: Arriva London Fleet Details: HA9 Registration: LK65 BZF Vehicle Type: Alexander Dennis Enviro 400H City

www.flickr.com

However I do think a rear (rather than centre) door makes a bus more practical when heavily loaded, as does a second staircase with one being used for boarding and one for alighting, so I think that was a correct decision too (and is what Berlin has in much more conventional looking deckers). Yes, it makes cascading to the regions less viable, but why should London get something that is secondary to what is needed just so it can have a life in Manchester later?

 

[Deerfold]

I quite like them too, and I think the idea of having something that looks "cool" to make public transport "cool" is money well spent. FWIW, I don't think the problem was in the bodyshell, though (other than the stupid non-specification of opening windows to start with), it was all the underlying stuff. Indeed, Alexander Dennis came up with the E400 City, which basically has most of the charm while being more conventional:

HA9, LK65 BZF

Arriva London E400H City HA9 passes Tower Hill whilst carrying a 78 service for Shoreditch Vehicle Details Operator: Arriva London Fleet Details: HA9 Registration: LK65 BZF Vehicle Type: Alexander Dennis Enviro 400H City

www.flickr.com

However I do think a rear (rather than centre) door makes a bus more practical when heavily loaded, as does a second staircase with one being used for boarding and one for alighting, so I think that was a correct decision too (and is what Berlin has in much more conventional looking deckers). Yes, it makes cascading to the regions less viable, but why should London get something that is secondary to what is needed just so it can have a life in Manchester later?

If they had been arranged to have one staircase for boarding and one for alighting that might have helped, but I've never seen them working in that way and there's no signage to suggest people do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they had been arranged to have one staircase for boarding and one for alighting that might have helped, but I've never seen them working in that way and there's no signage to suggest people do that.

They are now "on at the front, off at the middle/back" as per other London buses, so that will be happening by default without signage.

 

[Mikey C]

I always tend to use the rear staircase, but as it's of the curved variety, some people might feel more comfortable going down the front straight one. Which leads to the middle door anyway

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always tend to use the rear staircase, but as it's of the curved variety, some people might feel more comfortable going down the front straight one. Which leads to the middle door anyway

I've never understood straight staircases on buses. While I'm fully mobile, because I'm tall and heavy I find bus staircases very awkward, and I definitely find spiral ones much easier than straight.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've never understood straight staircases on buses. While I'm fully mobile, because I'm tall and heavy I find bus staircases very awkward, and I definitely find spiral ones much easier than straight.

Agreed. I never understood why the curved staircases were changed to a more dangerous straight version.

 

[MotCO]

Agreed. I never understood why the curved staircases were changed to a more dangerous straight version.

I find straight staircases more dangerous, particularly when descending whilst the bus is on the move. If the bus has to stop suddenly, I would be thrown down the full staircase; if the staircase had corners, I would only be thrown against the next corner.

 

[Vespa]

I always tend to use the rear staircase, but as it's of the curved variety, some people might feel more comfortable going down the front straight one. Which leads to the middle door anyway

I prefer to use the rear curved staircase as well, I feel comfortable with it, it's also for nostalgic reason as I remember the old Routemaster rear staircase.

At least you have options between straight and curved

I've not yet had the chance to ride on the BYD all electric bus yet to compare.

 

[Snow1964]

TfL wishes the Borismaster had never been invented, but it wasn't their decision. All they could do was mitigate the craziest aspects of the design that the mayor had in mind.


It's really not a significant issue. The biggest aspect that affects tender prices is staff costs, which account for oner half of total costs.

Re battery replacement costing, this is no different to when operators offer existing conventional hybrids in their bids. bids

I believe the Borismasters are leased to Operators at nominal rate (£1 per year each ?), so tender prices for their routes are based on operating costs and ignore any lease rental or depreciation.

Ultimately if TfL pay for mid life refurbishment directly, its not like they incur any extra cost over Operator doing it. Because if Operator did it, they would just increase tender price to cover the cost incurred so TfL would still be ultimate payer.

 

[James H]

There were mutterings about reviewing the affordability of the mid-life refurb at today's TfL programmes and investment committee.

 

[PG]

There were mutterings about reviewing the affordability of the mid-life refurb at today's TfL programmes and investment committee.

Which leads back to the 'it might be cheaper (overall) to scrap them' argument...

Indeed, Alexander Dennis came up with the E400 City, which basically has most of the charm while being more conventional:

For a more visually direct comparison this photo shows the exterior similarities - not too much in it really plus the City has deeper upper deck windows so less claustrophobic:
BCE47020, LB69 JPX by West Midlands Buses, on Flickr

I find straight staircases more dangerous, particularly when descending whilst the bus is on the move. If the bus has to stop suddenly, I would be thrown down the full staircase; if the staircase had corners, I would only be thrown against the next corner.

The logic of forward ascending staircases escapes me for this very reason. An accelerating bus will try to throw you back down the stairs while under braking it wants to throw you forwards down the stairs!

I have a distinct younger memory of travelling on an ECW Bristol VR that had a nearly straight (right angles top and bottom) rearward ascending staircase, no awkward varying angles to catch out the less agile or visually impaired.

I can see the benefits (from an operator perspective) of a curved forward ascending staircase but for a passenger the only benefit is that the corners might save you falling completely down the stairs!

 

[scosutsut]

There were mutterings about reviewing the affordability of the mid-life refurb at today's TfL programmes and investment committee.

Which will be amusing as if all full electric / hybrid battery vehicles were reverted to diesel or scrapped at mid life surely questions have to be asked if there is any environmental saving at all!

A bit like early Prius's, you had to drive I think it was over 100k before the environmental saving outweighed the additional environmental impact of manufacturing them?

Edit: the latter might be Clarksonesque spin, I just recall it said as "fact"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which will be amusing as if all full electric / hybrid battery vehicles were reverted to diesel or scrapped at mid life surely questions have to be asked if there is any environmental saving at all!

Which misses the point of switching to electric in cities entirely, as people often do. Electric in cities is about removing particulate and NOx pollution at the point of use where it causes most harm. Carbon emission is very much secondary; electric buses in cities would still be of benefit even if 100% of the electricity was generated by way of coal-fired power stations, provided they had decent exhaust scrubbers and weren't located in large cities.

It's not dissimilar to people in smoke-free zones switching to electric or even gas heating from coal fires, as most did when those were introduced - the point was to move the pollution away from where people were routinely breathing it in.

 

[Vespa]

Maybe it's time to revive a technology which was ahead of its time but updated, with wires outside the centre and battery in the city centre especially with complicated road junctions.

Yes.....a trolleybus !

After all they brought trams back in several UK cities, so why not a trolleybus system.

 

[scosutsut]

Which misses the point of switching to electric in cities entirely, as people often do. Electric in cities is about removing particulate and NOx pollution at the point of use where it causes most harm. Carbon emission is very much secondary; electric buses in cities would still be of benefit even if 100% of the electricity was generated by way of coal-fired power stations, provided they had decent exhaust scrubbers and weren't located in large cities.

It's not dissimilar to people in smoke-free zones switching to electric or even gas heating from coal fires, as most did when those were introduced - the point was to move the pollution away from where people were routinely breathing it in.

I get your point, there is a reduction in population centres, but if we're still punching the environment in the cajones somewhere, burning holes in the ozone layer, the problem has not gone away!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get your point, there is a reduction in population centres, but if we're still punching the environment in the cajones somewhere, burning holes in the ozone layer, the problem has not gone away!

Part of the problem has, though, and it's the more pressing one.

That's why it makes sense to switch to electric now - we get an immediate benefit - we can then phase electricity generation over to low-carbon or zero-carbon methods and it gets better over time.

 

[Goldfish62]

Part of the problem has, though, and it's the more pressing one.

That's why it makes sense to switch to electric now - we get an immediate benefit - we can then phase electricity generation over to low-carbon or zero-carbon methods and it gets better over time.

Completely agree. As with most things you have to start somewhere.

Same with hybrids. They were always only interim technology to incentivise companies to get on and develop viable battery electric buses.

With the mass introduction of battery electric vehicles will come improvements in battery technology.

 

[Arriva Fan]

I prefer the WrightBus SRM, it's so much better looking than the E400City imo.

Sovereign VHR45207

El carrosser Wright ofereix una versió del NBfL sobre bastidor Volvo B5LH. Exteriorment són molt semblants, excepte per la disposició de portes i escala a la part posterior. Existeix una versió amb bateries recarregables per pantògrafs als finals de linia.

flickr.com

 

[Mikey C]

There were mutterings about reviewing the affordability of the mid-life refurb at today's TfL programmes and investment committee.

Which is where politics tends to get in the way. You can guarantee that Labour would be very happy for the Borismasters to be publicly scrapped as a symbol of Boris's failure, while similarly the Tories would be very keen for them to stay in use as as a very visible symbol of Boris's "get things done" time as Mayor.

America has Trump Towers as a physical symbol of Trump's power and wealth, the UK has a bus

 

[Vespa]

Which is where politics tends to get in the way. You can guarantee that Labour would be very happy for the Borismasters to be publicly scrapped as a symbol of Boris's failure, while similarly the Tories would be very keen for them to stay in use as as a very visible symbol of Boris's "get things done" time as Mayor.

Pretty much why Khan cancelled the contract for further new Routemasters, it's a symbol of Boris time as a Mayor and Khan to date hasn't really made much of a stamp on London apart from lots of instagrams of him going to parties and hanging around for photos with famous people.

The new Routemaster is very different and looked striking with a classic look, standing out from bland anybuses in red, long may it continue.

 

[carlberry]

Pretty much why Khan cancelled the contract for further new Routemasters, it's a symbol of Boris time as a Mayor and Khan to date hasn't really made much of a stamp on London apart from lots of instagrams of him going to parties and hanging around for photos with famous people.

The new Routemaster is very different and looked striking with a classic look, standing out from bland anybuses in red, long may it continue.

I'd have thought that, for most Londoners, having the hopper fare and fare freeze actually meant more than a zip wire and having one of the most expensive buses in the UK both to buy and to run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I prefer the WrightBus SRM, it's so much better looking than the E400City imo.

Sovereign VHR45207

El carrosser Wright ofereix una versió del NBfL sobre bastidor Volvo B5LH. Exteriorment són molt semblants, excepte per la disposició de portes i escala a la part posterior. Existeix una versió amb bateries recarregables per pantògrafs als finals de linia.

flickr.com

That's TfL-spec rather than a commercial endeavour, isn't it? It does retain the look while being more conventional, but I really do see a big benefit, on busy routes, of the rear door, indeed if I was speccing a two-door electric bus (no transmission tunnel ior beam axle needed for electrics if you have independent motors on each rear wheel) I'd go for front and rear with no middle (wheelchair users often seem to prefer boarding by the driver anyway, I recall this from previous threads on the matter).

Interestingly this is no new thing - I've mentioned elsewhere the Dutch design like that, but it was also the original Runcorn Busway spec!

I'd have thought that, for most Londoners, having the hopper fare and fare freeze actually meant more than a zip wire and having one of the most expensive buses in the UK both to buy and to run.

I think I'd separate "having a fancy body" from "being technologically experimental" - it's the latter that cost the money, not the former. An "iconic" London bus is to me a very good thing, and if you're buying them in the sort of volume London does, having a distinctive style of bodywork is hardly going to be that expensive, particularly if TfL commissioned the designer so more than one manufacturer could be contracted to build it (in the manner of say the Networker EMUs, where both ABB and BREL built them to a very similar spec, though there are slight visual differences they are clearly from one family).

Having said that, the Wright Eclipse did a fairly good job of being that "look" for quite a number of years - it really is quite an attractive and distinctive design, and had quite a number of good poster campaigns designed around it, a bit like the distinctive lines of the Class 350 became the base for pretty much all of LM's publicity material even though that too wasn't a custom design.

 

[hst43102]

Have three-door buses ever been used in the UK, other than the NBFLs? AFAIK they are very common on the continent and seem to work well in cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have three-door buses ever been used in the UK, other than the NBFLs? AFAIK they are very common on the continent and seem to work well in cities.

Three door rigid single deckers are (or have been, I can't find a nearside photo of the current ones) used on the "Red Arrows", but I think that's it unless you count bendies. I'm not aware of any other three door double deckers - Berlin is the preserve of those.