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Bosnian Steam

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Richard Scott

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Hoping to go to Bosnia in a few weeks to try and track down remaining steam workings (hoping they still run, if not be hunting out 661 diesels). We're hiring a car so would anyone know if any good locations where I could see these workings? Also any locations where the 661s work would also be useful.
Many thanks in advance.
Realised this may have been better in the trip planning section if mods wish to move, sorry!
 
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littledude

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They work(ed) in the Lukavac/Tuzla area out of the coal mines

Whether they still do or not, I can’t be sure. I’d be keen to know, though! It’s very much on my radar!

Cheers,
Tom
 

181

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Have you looked at https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/europe.htm#Bosnia? It's a bit of a jumble, and you may have to read through quite a lot of it to find all the information you need, but there is quite a lot there. It would be good if you could send the site a report of what you find, for the benefit of future visitors.

Post #5 in this thread indicates that steam is still active in Bosnia.

I visited (without a car) in 2012 and again in 2013 (there are a couple of my reports on the internationalsteam site); feel free to ask if you think I might be able to help with any questions, but bear in mind that my latest visit was 8 years ago.

Here (if I've got the links right) are Google satellite images of some of the sites (zoom out to see the context):

Bukinje works. When I visited I was given a guided tour for 25 euros.
Dubrave colliery sidings. Reasonable views from publicly accessible places, I seem to remember, and on one occasion I was able to pay the staff to get in for a short visit.
Sikulje colliery. I found that views of the sidings from outside the site were somewhat limited, and wasn't able to get in.
Oskova. I got in by asking in the office in Banovici and being given a (free) guided tour, but I think others have reported being able to walk or drive in. I don't know how good the views are from outside the site.
Banovici. Narrow-gauge depot at upper left; mining company HQ (to which I was directed) lower right of centre, labelled 'Rudnik mrkogi uglja Banovici'.

My understanding is that steam is now (a change since my visits) confined to shunting at Dubrave, Sikulje and (sometimes) Oskova, and no longer runs to main line exchange sidings, although if a narrow gauge locomotive is in use, I'd guess (no more than a guess) that it might run under its own steam to get from Banovici to Oskova to take up its duties, and vice versa.

Unless anyone knows otherwise, I think use of class 62 0-6-0s (think of the Southern Railway's 'USA' class) at Durdevik not far from Banovici and Dubrave, and at Zenica and Breza a considerable distance away towards Sarajevo, has now ceased.

I can't tell you much about the class 661 diesels, I'm afraid, although I think I saw a few on freight trains around Tuzla, so you might find them bringing trains in and out of the sites mentioned above.
 

Richard Scott

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Have you looked at https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/europe.htm#Bosnia? It's a bit of a jumble, and you may have to read through quite a lot of it to find all the information you need, but there is quite a lot there. It would be good if you could send the site a report of what you find, for the benefit of future visitors.

Post #5 in this thread indicates that steam is still active in Bosnia.

I visited (without a car) in 2012 and again in 2013 (there are a couple of my reports on the internationalsteam site); feel free to ask if you think I might be able to help with any questions, but bear in mind that my latest visit was 8 years ago.

Here (if I've got the links right) are Google satellite images of some of the sites (zoom out to see the context):

Bukinje works. When I visited I was given a guided tour for 25 euros.
Dubrave colliery sidings. Reasonable views from publicly accessible places, I seem to remember, and on one occasion I was able to pay the staff to get in for a short visit.
Sikulje colliery. I found that views of the sidings from outside the site were somewhat limited, and wasn't able to get in.
Oskova. I got in by asking in the office in Banovici and being given a (free) guided tour, but I think others have reported being able to walk or drive in. I don't know how good the views are from outside the site.
Banovici. Narrow-gauge depot at upper left; mining company HQ (to which I was directed) lower right of centre, labelled 'Rudnik mrkogi uglja Banovici'.

My understanding is that steam is now (a change since my visits) confined to shunting at Dubrave, Sikulje and (sometimes) Oskova, and no longer runs to main line exchange sidings, although if a narrow gauge locomotive is in use, I'd guess (no more than a guess) that it might run under its own steam to get from Banovici to Oskova to take up its duties, and vice versa.

Unless anyone knows otherwise, I think use of class 62 0-6-0s (think of the Southern Railway's 'USA' class) at Durdevik not far from Banovici and Dubrave, and at Zenica and Breza a considerable distance away towards Sarajevo, has now ceased.

I can't tell you much about the class 661 diesels, I'm afraid, although I think I saw a few on freight trains around Tuzla, so you might find them bringing trains in and out of the sites mentioned above.
Thanks very much, I'll take a look at all that. Will report back on what I find (or don't find!).
 

EuroRail

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I visited Bosnia in 2015 and 2016, but this was as a participant in two small group tours (Linesiding Tours - John Raby). http://www.rabylee.uk/linesidingindex.html We had organised access to the loading points at Dubrave and Sikulje on both occasions - personally I found Sikulje the more photogenic of the two loading points and the activity easier to photograph. John organised a more recent trip in 2018 and you can find the reports here: http://www.rabylee.uk/bosnia2018.html
The only potential working USA class 62 is at Oskova as one of the two standby steam locos. I think all others that survive at mines are dumped. We saw one steaming at Durdevik in 2015, but this was a charter and there were no wagons - coal was going out by road.
There is a stabling point just outside Tuzla where you might find class 661 diesels in between duties, mainly to the power station although we spotted one (in 2016) going into and out of the Salt factory. Now of course, they run up the lines to Dubrave and Sikulje to drop off empties and pick up fulls. Lukavac is a reasonably photogenic location (fulls from Sikulje) and if you are lucky, you might see the Soda Factory diesel shunter bringing out some wagons, plus of course there is the odd passenger train - when I was there, an elderly dmu or loco and one or two carriages.
If your transport interests are broader than trains, Sarajevo has ordered some new trams from Stadler, so I guess any older trams (or the secondhand ones) will disappear soon.
It will be interesting to hear what you find on your trip.
Nigel
 

Richard Scott

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I visited Bosnia in 2015 and 2016, but this was as a participant in two small group tours (Linesiding Tours - John Raby). http://www.rabylee.uk/linesidingindex.html We had organised access to the loading points at Dubrave and Sikulje on both occasions - personally I found Sikulje the more photogenic of the two loading points and the activity easier to photograph. John organised a more recent trip in 2018 and you can find the reports here: http://www.rabylee.uk/bosnia2018.html
The only potential working USA class 62 is at Oskova as one of the two standby steam locos. I think all others that survive at mines are dumped. We saw one steaming at Durdevik in 2015, but this was a charter and there were no wagons - coal was going out by road.
There is a stabling point just outside Tuzla where you might find class 661 diesels in between duties, mainly to the power station although we spotted one (in 2016) going into and out of the Salt factory. Now of course, they run up the lines to Dubrave and Sikulje to drop off empties and pick up fulls. Lukavac is a reasonably photogenic location (fulls from Sikulje) and if you are lucky, you might see the Soda Factory diesel shunter bringing out some wagons, plus of course there is the odd passenger train - when I was there, an elderly dmu or loco and one or two carriages.
If your transport interests are broader than trains, Sarajevo has ordered some new trams from Stadler, so I guess any older trams (or the secondhand ones) will disappear soon.
It will be interesting to hear what you find on your trip.
Nigel
Thanks Nigel.
Any info is appreciated as we're effectively running blind never having been there before. We'd like to see the steam but won't be considering the trip a failure if all we see are 661s, especially if hauling some decent coal trains!!
We're staying in Sarajevo so will also be interested in seeing the trams. We're also planning day trip to Mostar on the train as somewhere I want to visit.
 

181

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plus of course there is the odd passenger train - when I was there, an elderly dmu or loco and one or two carriages.
Sadly the current European Rail Timetable shows no trains to or from Tuzla -- the trains from Doboj all seem to terminate at Petrovo Novo, before the boundary between the Serb and Bosniak/Croat parts of Bosnia. I don't know how permanent this situation is, but in Bosnia reductions in passenger services seem more common than increases.
We're also planning day trip to Mostar on the train as somewhere I want to visit.
And a very scenic train journey, as you may know. (Although it's likely to be dark on the way back, so make the most of the outward journey!)
 

Cowley

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Thanks Nigel.
Any info is appreciated as we're effectively running blind never having been there before. We'd like to see the steam but won't be considering the trip a failure if all we see are 661s, especially if hauling some decent coal trains!!
We're staying in Sarajevo so will also be interested in seeing the trams. We're also planning day trip to Mostar on the train as somewhere I want to visit.

Could you let us know how this goes please Richard? I’d be very interested to hear about what you find.
 

EuroRail

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Sadly the current European Rail Timetable shows no trains to or from Tuzla -- the trains from Doboj all seem to terminate at Petrovo Novo, before the boundary between the Serb and Bosniak/Croat parts of Bosnia. I don't know how permanent this situation is, but in Bosnia reductions in passenger services seem more common than increases.

And a very scenic train journey, as you may know. (Although it's likely to be dark on the way back, so make the most of the outward journey!)
I must admit I hadn't picked up that this service had been reduced, thanks for pointing it out. It is a shame - I wonder if it's down to Covid service reductions or something more permanent? Of course, the Bosnian rail network for passengers is now very much isolated from the rest of Europe as the international train to Zagreb no longer runs. Sarajevo station is a very empty place most of the time!!

Looking forward to hearing how your trip goes Richard.

Nigel
 

Richard Scott

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I must admit I hadn't picked up that this service had been reduced, thanks for pointing it out. It is a shame - I wonder if it's down to Covid service reductions or something more permanent? Of course, the Bosnian rail network for passengers is now very much isolated from the rest of Europe as the international train to Zagreb no longer runs. Sarajevo station is a very empty place most of the time!!

Looking forward to hearing how your trip goes Richard.

Nigel
Now back from Bosnia and was fairly successful. We had next to no information so really was just a case of turn up and see. We hired a car, stayed in the Grand Hotel in Sarajevo, which was a good base. Two of our party had invested in Bosnian SIM cards for phones, which were invaluable as Google maps is a must. Headed out to Banovici first of all which yielded a USA tank shunting there, we then attempted to find the works for the steam locos pinpointing a likely spot in Bukinje, which proved to be spot on. With the help of a phrase book and a helpful chap at the entrance we got a tour around the works with an employee who spoke good English. He told us there were two locos outstationed at Sikuje colliery (no vantage point so a waste of time) and one loco at Dubrave - easy to see loco shunting so worth the effort.
The next day was spent travelling to Mostar on the train - stunning scenery and Mostar well worth a visit.
The last whole day we had was spent in the car travelling to Doboj as appeared to have a decent yard there. Lots of stored diesel and electric locos there along with some electric units. There was one coach left in the platform and no sign of a unit so we were hoping for a loco vice unit on the Petrovo Novo turn. Our luck was in as 661276 duly appeared and coupled up complete with working steam heat boiler.
Sarajevo itself is worth a look just from a history point of view and seems the Bosnians don't do masks despite them supposedly being mandatory. We found food and drink to be very cheap and the Bosnians to be very friendly.
We went with no expectations and came away with some great experiences, if you're thinking of going take the plunge. You'll need a car, a Bosnian SIM card and a bit of luck! If anyone wants more info please message and I'll do my best to answer.
 

181

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Thankyou for letting us know what you found, Richard, and glad you enjoyed it. I've send a link to this thread to Rob Dickinson of https://www.internationalsteam.co.uk, but if you want to contact him directly (address at the bottom of each page of his site) with any information or pictures, I'd imagine he'd be interested.

You'll need a car, a Bosnian SIM card and a bit of luck!
For anyone who doesn't drive/isn't confident driving abroad/doesn't have a smartphone/doesn't manage to get a Bosnian SIM card/etc., I had two worthwhile visits with only the third of those three things. (Admittedly there was a bit more steam to find back then, and on one occasion the luck involved bumping into another British railway enthusiast who gave me lifts to a couple of sites).
 

Richard Scott

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For anyone who doesn't drive/isn't confident driving abroad/doesn't have a smartphone/doesn't manage to get a Bosnian SIM card/etc., I had two worthwhile visits with only the third of those three things. (Admittedly there was a bit more steam to find back then, and on one occasion the luck involved bumping into another British railway enthusiast who gave me lifts to a couple of sites).
From our experience you'd be hard pressed to find any steam without a car, the SIM card was exceptionally useful as allowed us to identify the works for the Steam locos and then the areas they were working with the information we were given. Public transport is almost a non-starter in Bosnia. If you just want to visit Sarajevo and the few places you can reach by train then that's a possibility but if you're after steam then I really think you'd be wasting your time without a car.
 

Cowley

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Now back from Bosnia and was fairly successful. We had next to no information so really was just a case of turn up and see. We hired a car, stayed in the Grand Hotel in Sarajevo, which was a good base. Two of our party had invested in Bosnian SIM cards for phones, which were invaluable as Google maps is a must. Headed out to Banovici first of all which yielded a USA tank shunting there, we then attempted to find the works for the steam locos pinpointing a likely spot in Bukinje, which proved to be spot on. With the help of a phrase book and a helpful chap at the entrance we got a tour around the works with an employee who spoke good English. He told us there were two locos outstationed at Sikuje colliery (no vantage point so a waste of time) and one loco at Dubrave - easy to see loco shunting so worth the effort.
The next day was spent travelling to Mostar on the train - stunning scenery and Mostar well worth a visit.
The last whole day we had was spent in the car travelling to Doboj as appeared to have a decent yard there. Lots of stored diesel and electric locos there along with some electric units. There was one coach left in the platform and no sign of a unit so we were hoping for a loco vice unit on the Petrovo Novo turn. Our luck was in as 661276 duly appeared and coupled up complete with working steam heat boiler.
Sarajevo itself is worth a look just from a history point of view and seems the Bosnians don't do masks despite them supposedly being mandatory. We found food and drink to be very cheap and the Bosnians to be very friendly.
We went with no expectations and came away with some great experiences, if you're thinking of going take the plunge. You'll need a car, a Bosnian SIM card and a bit of luck! If anyone wants more info please message and I'll do my best to answer.

That sounds like a great trip Richard, thanks for the update
 

181

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From our experience you'd be hard pressed to find any steam without a car, the SIM card was exceptionally useful as allowed us to identify the works for the Steam locos and then the areas they were working with the information we were given. Public transport is almost a non-starter in Bosnia. If you just want to visit Sarajevo and the few places you can reach by train then that's a possibility but if you're after steam then I really think you'd be wasting your time without a car.
I'm sure having Google Maps live is very useful -- just not essential in my experience. From 2013 I remember looking at Google Maps at home when planning the trip; I can't remember whether I did that in 2012 or not.

As for public transport, my observation was that Bosnia appeared to have (and I'd be surprised if this has changed much) plenty of buses*, both local and long-distance** -- it was just finding out when and where they went that was the problem. Different people will have different levels of tolerance for just turning up and seeing what happens; I wouldn't be keen to rely on that to get there in the first place (so yes, today's absence of trains in and out of the country, and to Tuzla, would have made my trip harder, although there seems to be more bus information online these days), but it worked fairly well for getting around locally. As well as local buses, some distances are short enough just to walk (about 90 minutes from Dubrave back to Tuzla), and there's a report on the International Steam site from someone who took a folding bicycle with him.

*Many appeared to be second-hand from elsewhere in Europe, so maybe bus enthusiasts would find it worth visiting.

**Although my guidebook said that services between the Serb and Bosniak/Croat parts of the country can be sparser than those within either part.
 

Richard Scott

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I'm sure having Google Maps live is very useful -- just not essential in my experience. From 2013 I remember looking at Google Maps at home when planning the trip; I can't remember whether I did that in 2012 or not.

As for public transport, my observation was that Bosnia appeared to have (and I'd be surprised if this has changed much) plenty of buses*, both local and long-distance** -- it was just finding out when and where they went that was the problem. Different people will have different levels of tolerance for just turning up and seeing what happens; I wouldn't be keen to rely on that to get there in the first place (so yes, today's absence of trains in and out of the country, and to Tuzla, would have made my trip harder, although there seems to be more bus information online these days), but it worked fairly well for getting around locally. As well as local buses, some distances are short enough just to walk (about 90 minutes from Dubrave back to Tuzla), and there's a report on the International Steam site from someone who took a folding bicycle with him.

*Many appeared to be second-hand from elsewhere in Europe, so maybe bus enthusiasts would find it worth visiting.

**Although my guidebook said that services between the Serb and Bosniak/Croat parts of the country can be sparser than those within either part.
I'm sure you 'could' get around by public transport but from what I saw that would be unlikely and would take too long to achieve anything. Reported what I found and would stick to what I said, if you are going there hire a car and buy a SIM. If spending hundreds of pounds going somewhere I'm sure investing in a smart phone (if you don't have one) and a SIM would be a minimal additional expense. If not keen on driving abroad go as a group (didn't take me long to find three others who were keen) ensuring one is happy to drive. I'll admit Bosnian drivers are somewhat bonkers and almost along the lines of Italian driving so not for faint hearted but I survived!!!!
 

Cloud Strife

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I'll admit Bosnian drivers are somewhat bonkers

Funnily enough, they seem quite normal and calm to me.

...then I remember that I'm used to Polish drivers, where crap and aggressive driving is the absolute norm.

**Although my guidebook said that services between the Serb and Bosniak/Croat parts of the country can be sparser than those within either part.
This is generally a major issue in Bosnia as a whole. It seems strange, but traffic between the entities can be very light, and there's not much demand for services between the two. There's very much a mental border between the two entities, as perhaps illustrated best by the Istočno Sarajevo bus station - it's just a few metres within the Republika Srpska, yet you won't find a bus to destinations within Serbia and the Republika Srpska from Sarajevo proper - everything is leaving from the Istočno Sarajevo bus station.

I stayed in Bihać for a week a few years ago, and our very cheery and pleasant hosts told us that they simply had no reason to ever go to the Republika Srpska. It wasn't because of any perceived danger, they just didn't have a reason to go, nor did they feel the need to go. In their words - there's nothing there, and Banja Luka is small compared to Sarajevo or Mostar.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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Things could get seriously bad soon.


The international community’s chief representative in Bosnia has warned that the country is in imminent danger of breaking apart, and there is a “very real” prospect of a return to conflict.

In a report to the UN seen by the Guardian, Christian Schmidt, the high representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina, said that if Serb separatists carry out their threat to recreate their own army, splitting the national armed forces in two, more international peacekeepers would have to be sent back in to stop the slide towards a new war.
 

Richard Scott

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Cowley

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Unfortunately this seems to be a possibility. Spoke to someone on the plane back who spent a lot of time there and she commented on the political turmoil.

Yes I’ve been keeping an eye on this developing. Not good at all.
 

Cloud Strife

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This is just the usual political games being played by the nationalist parties in Bosnia. The country is paralysed because of the shortcomings of Dayton (and there are many!), and each ethnic group keeps electing the same nationalist parties, which in turn operate a very cosy system of patronage. Dodik in the Republika Srpska is simply playing to his domestic audience to cover up the failings of his government, just as (Bakir) Izetbegović does with the Bosniak SDA and Dragan Čović does with the Croat HDZ.

Without going into too much tedious detail, Bosnia is essentially a three party state where each party pretends to argue with the other two so that they distract voters from the corrupt nature of their parties. No-one has anything to gain from war or secession, and the Dayton formula essentially ensures that these parties will rule over Bosnia until Dayton is either repealed or people finally realise that they're being taken for fools.

To give an example: in Sarajevo, you need to be a member of the SDA to have a shot at a government job. There's not much in the way of meaningful private enterprise, so a young Bosniak has to join the youth wing of the SDA. They'll hand out leaflets, they'll carry out political work, and then they've got a path into the SDA itself. SDA membership at university then becomes a path into getting a job in a SDA-controlled company or institution. Even in private companies, you'll find that the owners are linked to the SDA, so it becomes a kind of vicious circle in which the family votes for the SDA simply to protect the position of their family member. So, in this case, Dodik of the SNSD operates exactly the same system. There are elections coming soon in Bosnia (next October, if I'm not mistaken), and so Dodik is simply making sure that he'll get re-elected by proposing things that are popular in the Republika Srpska.

What's needed in Bosnia is for the international community to sit down and abolish Dayton. BiH is a failed state on many levels, as witnessed by the fact that Mostar went for years and years without an elected mayor. It's explained here in more detail - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubo_Bešlić - but essentially, the HDZ and SDA in Mostar had nothing to gain by holding elections there. It was better for them to maintain the status quo, as they each held power over their respective half of Mostar, including appointing people to various well paid positions.

The problem is: it's unlikely that any of the Bosnian political leaders would agree to abolish Dayton. The system guarantees a Bosniak, a Serb and a Croat President, which effectively rules out any other ethnic minority from becoming one of the collective Presidents. As a result, without being too cynical, perhaps it actually would be better if the Republika Srpska left BiH. The remaining Bosniak-Croat Federation could then be reformed into a normal state with some minority rights to protect the Croat minority, which would also end the dominance of the SDA in the affairs of the existing FBiH.

Unfortunately, the international community doesn't want to hear about independence of the RS. It's a bad move for long term peace, because the RS simply doesn't want to be part of BiH. They don't want war (they remember what happened last time, and they know fine well that they were within 2-3 t weeks of completely losing the Republika Srpska had the Bosnian Army been allowed to go for Banja Luka), but they don't want to stay in BiH as well. Letting the Republika Srpska go their own way wouldn't be very problematic, and it would be possible to make it clear to Serbia that any concept of Greater Serbia is not on the table.

(it's also worth reading about the Brcko District, which works very well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brčko_District)

But yes, talk of war is just silly. No-one wants war there, and unlike in 1991-1992, the RS forces don't have access to large amounts of artillery and other heavy equipment.
 

Richard Scott

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This is just the usual political games being played by the nationalist parties in Bosnia. The country is paralysed because of the shortcomings of Dayton (and there are many!), and each ethnic group keeps electing the same nationalist parties, which in turn operate a very cosy system of patronage. Dodik in the Republika Srpska is simply playing to his domestic audience to cover up the failings of his government, just as (Bakir) Izetbegović does with the Bosniak SDA and Dragan Čović does with the Croat HDZ.

Without going into too much tedious detail, Bosnia is essentially a three party state where each party pretends to argue with the other two so that they distract voters from the corrupt nature of their parties. No-one has anything to gain from war or secession, and the Dayton formula essentially ensures that these parties will rule over Bosnia until Dayton is either repealed or people finally realise that they're being taken for fools.

To give an example: in Sarajevo, you need to be a member of the SDA to have a shot at a government job. There's not much in the way of meaningful private enterprise, so a young Bosniak has to join the youth wing of the SDA. They'll hand out leaflets, they'll carry out political work, and then they've got a path into the SDA itself. SDA membership at university then becomes a path into getting a job in a SDA-controlled company or institution. Even in private companies, you'll find that the owners are linked to the SDA, so it becomes a kind of vicious circle in which the family votes for the SDA simply to protect the position of their family member. So, in this case, Dodik of the SNSD operates exactly the same system. There are elections coming soon in Bosnia (next October, if I'm not mistaken), and so Dodik is simply making sure that he'll get re-elected by proposing things that are popular in the Republika Srpska.

What's needed in Bosnia is for the international community to sit down and abolish Dayton. BiH is a failed state on many levels, as witnessed by the fact that Mostar went for years and years without an elected mayor. It's explained here in more detail - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubo_Bešlić - but essentially, the HDZ and SDA in Mostar had nothing to gain by holding elections there. It was better for them to maintain the status quo, as they each held power over their respective half of Mostar, including appointing people to various well paid positions.

The problem is: it's unlikely that any of the Bosnian political leaders would agree to abolish Dayton. The system guarantees a Bosniak, a Serb and a Croat President, which effectively rules out any other ethnic minority from becoming one of the collective Presidents. As a result, without being too cynical, perhaps it actually would be better if the Republika Srpska left BiH. The remaining Bosniak-Croat Federation could then be reformed into a normal state with some minority rights to protect the Croat minority, which would also end the dominance of the SDA in the affairs of the existing FBiH.

Unfortunately, the international community doesn't want to hear about independence of the RS. It's a bad move for long term peace, because the RS simply doesn't want to be part of BiH. They don't want war (they remember what happened last time, and they know fine well that they were within 2-3 t weeks of completely losing the Republika Srpska had the Bosnian Army been allowed to go for Banja Luka), but they don't want to stay in BiH as well. Letting the Republika Srpska go their own way wouldn't be very problematic, and it would be possible to make it clear to Serbia that any concept of Greater Serbia is not on the table.

(it's also worth reading about the Brcko District, which works very well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brčko_District)

But yes, talk of war is just silly. No-one wants war there, and unlike in 1991-1992, the RS forces don't have access to large amounts of artillery and other heavy equipment.
Thanks for that, learned a lot whilst I was there as we found out about the three president set up (seems elections cost an absolute fortune to run, is this correct?). Know we're drifting off topic but it is a fascinating country in many ways.
 

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This is just the usual political games being played by the nationalist parties in Bosnia. The country is paralysed because of the shortcomings of Dayton (and there are many!), and each ethnic group keeps electing the same nationalist parties, which in turn operate a very cosy system of patronage. Dodik in the Republika Srpska is simply playing to his domestic audience to cover up the failings of his government, just as (Bakir) Izetbegović does with the Bosniak SDA and Dragan Čović does with the Croat HDZ.

Without going into too much tedious detail, Bosnia is essentially a three party state where each party pretends to argue with the other two so that they distract voters from the corrupt nature of their parties. No-one has anything to gain from war or secession, and the Dayton formula essentially ensures that these parties will rule over Bosnia until Dayton is either repealed or people finally realise that they're being taken for fools.

To give an example: in Sarajevo, you need to be a member of the SDA to have a shot at a government job. There's not much in the way of meaningful private enterprise, so a young Bosniak has to join the youth wing of the SDA. They'll hand out leaflets, they'll carry out political work, and then they've got a path into the SDA itself. SDA membership at university then becomes a path into getting a job in a SDA-controlled company or institution. Even in private companies, you'll find that the owners are linked to the SDA, so it becomes a kind of vicious circle in which the family votes for the SDA simply to protect the position of their family member. So, in this case, Dodik of the SNSD operates exactly the same system. There are elections coming soon in Bosnia (next October, if I'm not mistaken), and so Dodik is simply making sure that he'll get re-elected by proposing things that are popular in the Republika Srpska.

What's needed in Bosnia is for the international community to sit down and abolish Dayton. BiH is a failed state on many levels, as witnessed by the fact that Mostar went for years and years without an elected mayor. It's explained here in more detail - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubo_Bešlić - but essentially, the HDZ and SDA in Mostar had nothing to gain by holding elections there. It was better for them to maintain the status quo, as they each held power over their respective half of Mostar, including appointing people to various well paid positions.

The problem is: it's unlikely that any of the Bosnian political leaders would agree to abolish Dayton. The system guarantees a Bosniak, a Serb and a Croat President, which effectively rules out any other ethnic minority from becoming one of the collective Presidents. As a result, without being too cynical, perhaps it actually would be better if the Republika Srpska left BiH. The remaining Bosniak-Croat Federation could then be reformed into a normal state with some minority rights to protect the Croat minority, which would also end the dominance of the SDA in the affairs of the existing FBiH.

Unfortunately, the international community doesn't want to hear about independence of the RS. It's a bad move for long term peace, because the RS simply doesn't want to be part of BiH. They don't want war (they remember what happened last time, and they know fine well that they were within 2-3 t weeks of completely losing the Republika Srpska had the Bosnian Army been allowed to go for Banja Luka), but they don't want to stay in BiH as well. Letting the Republika Srpska go their own way wouldn't be very problematic, and it would be possible to make it clear to Serbia that any concept of Greater Serbia is not on the table.

(it's also worth reading about the Brcko District, which works very well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brčko_District)

But yes, talk of war is just silly. No-one wants war there, and unlike in 1991-1992, the RS forces don't have access to large amounts of artillery and other heavy equipment.

Interesting stuff and thanks for taking the time to explain things. I considered starting a thread in the general discussion section about this the other day but having read that I’m not sure that I’ve got enough of a handle on things to do a complicated situation justice actually.
It’ll be interesting to see if someone else starts one at some point though.
 

Cloud Strife

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Interesting stuff and thanks for taking the time to explain things. I considered starting a thread in the general discussion section about this the other day but having read that I’m not sure that I’ve got enough of a handle on things to do a complicated situation justice actually.
It’ll be interesting to see if someone else starts one at some point though.

It's worth starting one all the same - I'll happily contribute and answer your questions! edit: I've started one here - please feel free to contribute!

But going back, this is actually part of the reason why there's such trouble with railway infrastructure in Bosnia. The infrastructure itself belongs to the respective entities, so a perfectly logical train serving Sarajevo-Zenica-Doboj-Tuzla has to cross the entity borders twice. There's not much intercity demand in Bosnia (in fact, it's quite remarkable how empty the roads are!), so for instance, Tuzla-Doboj trains (until they were suspended last year) were serving only 12 passengers on average per day.

Then there's the issue of infrastructure itself - the Republika Srpska had no real motivation to invest in the Tuzla-Doboj line. Private buses are faster and cheaper, so it just leads to a complete deterioration of the railways in the country as a whole. Contrary to what some people might think, roads in BiH are generally of good quality - so the bus can do Tuzla-Sarajevo in just over 3 hours.
 
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