bought ticket with railcard Checked several times Inspector then noted out of date

[smiler93]

Bought a ticket face to face with Railcard and got discount of £6 approx. Ticket and railcard checked 2 more times. On return journey Inspector noted Railcard was out of date ( I'd not specifically checked it and thought expiry date was that of Two Together card).
Inspector very aggressive and reduced me to tears. Since I had no money to pay he took details. I received letter stating intention to prosecute.
If I'd had money on train would have paid. Surely should have been given opportunity to make payment. Wasn't given any details of next steps by inspector just told to wait for letter.
I now realise card was out of date, but wasn't done intentionally. Should I have been offered Unpaid Fare Notice ? Is it significant that several members of staff did their job poorly and didn't notice Railcard had expired (if I'd been told it was out of date when purchasing I would have bought correct ticket.)

 

[RPI]

In your post you state that you had no money to pay, then later on you say you should have had an opportunity to pay? Sadly it is your responsibility to ensure that your railcard is valid and in date and that you have a valid ticket.
Effectively you were travelling without a valid ticket and without means to pay.
I'm sorry if this seems blunt but sometimes it's important to focus on the facts.
Out of interest how much out of date was it and which train company?

 

[najaB]

Is it significant that several members of staff did their job poorly and didn't notice Railcard had expired (if I'd been told it was out of date when purchasing I would have bought correct ticket.)

In a word: no, and blaming others for your mistake isn't going to get you far.

The agreed procedure if you are found on a train with a railcard-discounted ticket and no valid railcard is to sell a new undiscounted ticket, which will be refunded if, within 14 days, you present a railcard that would have been valid at the time the incident occurred. Since (a) you didn't purchase the undiscounted ticket; and (b) wouldn't have been able to present railcard which was valid at the time the TOC is within their rights to seek to either recover their loss through a private settlement or bring a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act.

In all likelihood, unless there are other aggravating factors they are likely to settle on a fare-plus basis, where the 'plus' is likely to be around £100 (to cover their costs).

 

[island]

Couldn’t you have purchased a new ticket by card from the inspector?

 

[142blue]

Does the company not offer you to pay the excess to a full fare ticket with the excess being refundable upon presentation of your railcard. I've heard of that before

 

[najaB]

Couldn’t you have purchased a new ticket by card from the inspector?

Does the company not offer you to pay the excess to a full fare ticket with the excess being refundable upon presentation of your railcard.

The OP has indicated that wasn't an option:

Since I had no money to pay he took details...
If I'd had money on train would have paid.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does the company not offer you to pay the excess to a full fare ticket with the excess being refundable upon presentation of your railcard. I've heard of that before

That (recent) procedure is for when someone has an in-date railcard but forgets it. I think other threads have pointed out that you can't legitimise the out of date card by back-issuing a replacement. (Which is basically what post #3 is stating anyway.)

 

[142blue]

Ahhhh yes my mistake

Though in that case pay to the right fare and then it's at the price it should be

 

[najaB]

Though in that case pay to the right fare and then it's at the price it should be

If the original ticket was a single then it could be refunded (minus administration fee) as it would be unused.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I'd had money on train would have paid. Surely should have been given opportunity to make payment.

A bit confusing - how would you make payment on the train with no money?

Is it significant that several members of staff did their job poorly and didn't notice Railcard had expired (if I'd been told it was out of date when purchasing I would have bought correct ticket.)

No - it’s entirely your responsibility under the Bylaws to have the right ticket and a valid Railcard I’m afraid.

 

[142blue]

If the original ticket was a single then it could be refunded (minus administration fee) as it would be unused.

Why would the ticket not be clipped/stamped or at least marked to show it has been excessed

 

[najaB]

Why would the ticket not be clipped/stamped or at least marked to show it has been excessed

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post.

I meant that if an undiscounted replacement ticket had been sold instead of excessing then the original ticket would remain unused..

 

[142blue]

But then the person has two tickets, one that's wrong (no valid RC) and one that is right

Interested to know why the TOC doesn't just charge the OP the difference in fare to make it to the cost of a non discounted fare

Is there variation between TOCs in regard to this

 

[AlterEgo]

But then the person has two tickets, one that's wrong (no valid RC) and one that is right

Interested to know why the TOC doesn't just charge the OP the difference in fare to make it to the cost of a non discounted fare

Is there variation between TOCs in regard to this

How would that then be a disincentive to people travelling with no Railcard? They’d always pay the discounted rate and on the odd occasion they get stopped they just end up paying the excess up to the fare they had a legal obligation to pay in the first place.

 

[najaB]

Interested to know why the TOC doesn't just charge the OP the difference in fare to make it to the cost of a non discounted fare.

Because it would be too easy to game the system - buy a railcard discounted ticket and show your out of date railcard. Worst thing that happens is you have to pay the fare you should have paid in the first place.

 

[142blue]

How would that then be a disincentive to people travelling with no Railcard? They’d always pay the discounted rate and on the odd occasion they get stopped they just end up paying the excess up to the fare they had a legal obligation to pay in the first place.

That's a very reasonable point

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's easily done, though. I actually managed, years ago, to make several journeys on an out of date Railcard by accident. In the end it was noticed by a ticket office, fortunately, and not an RPI, and was immediately renewed. The railway never lost any money, as if you want a Railcard continuously from age 16 to 2 days before your 27th birthday there is a fixed number you have to purchase - any gaps just mean the last one is for slightly less than a year (effectively).

FWIW I don't think it's reasonable to expect a Railcard holder (most of whom are either young or old, and therefore not made of money) to carry the money for an Anytime ticket "just in case". Really there needs to be a scheme for those who hold Railcards for a short period after expiry (say one month) whereby if you do forget to renew you can renew back-dated and pay, after the event, a simple admin fee of £10 rather than be prosecuted. If you fail to deal with that, then prosecute away.

 

[najaB]

Really there needs to be a scheme for those who hold Railcards for a short period after expiry (say one month) whereby if you do forget to renew you can renew back-dated and pay, after the event, a simple admin fee of £10 rather than be prosecuted. If you fail to deal with that, then prosecute away.

Seems reasonable enough. I wouldn't be surprised to see something of the sort in the near future.

 

[island]

The OP has indicated that wasn't an option:

The OP said he/she had no money, which I take to mean no cash. I am not aware of anyone who has a Railcard these days who goes out without carrying a credit or debit card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP said he/she had no money, which I take to mean no cash. I am not aware of anyone who has a Railcard these days who goes out without carrying a credit or debit card.

Depending on the journey, it's quite likely a Railcard holder will have one of those things but it will not contain enough money for an Anytime fare for the journey. The holders of most Railcards are often of limited means through being young or old - that's the whole point of those Railcards.

 

[najaB]

The OP said he/she had no money, which I take to mean no cash. I am not aware of anyone who has a Railcard these days who goes out without carrying a credit or debit card.

They may very well have a credit or debit card. That doesn't mean they had the means to pay for a new ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

Depending on the journey, it's quite likely a Railcard holder will have one of those things but it will not contain enough money for an Anytime fare for the journey. The holders of most Railcards are often of limited means through being young or old - that's the whole point of those Railcards.

Are they?
I can think of numerous people who hold Disabled and Aged Persons Cards who would find that comment quite insulting.

 

[island]

Depending on the journey, it's quite likely a Railcard holder will have one of those things but it will not contain enough money for an Anytime fare for the journey. The holders of most Railcards are often of limited means through being young or old - that's the whole point of those Railcards.

The OP’s ticket cost £12 and was a return ticket (therefore not an Advance).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they?
I can think of numerous people who hold Disabled and Aged Persons Cards who would find that comment quite insulting.

That’s kind of the point. Not to insult, but to provide differential pricing largely (but only roughly) based on spending power.

 

[Llanigraham]

That’s kind of the point. Not to insult, but to provide differential pricing largely (but only roughly) based on spending power.

But that isn't what you said.

 

[AlterEgo]

But that isn't what you said.

It’s still true though. On average I would expect most railcard holders to have a lower disposable income than non-holders. That’s exactly why most demographic railcards exist.

 

[AndrewE]

It's easy to overlook things going out of date (especially if the discount card wasn't bought online, or linked to a website which sends an email reminder.) I've even been embarrassed by offering an out-of-date CAMRA/Wetherspoons voucher!
In these circumstances I just say sorry and pay the penalty (hopefuly in this case just excessing it up to the single full fare), but it seems from the tales of woe on this and other threads that RPIs are going over the top and treating every occurrence as premeditated fraud.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's easy to overlook things going out of date (especially if the discount card wasn't bought online, or linked to a website which sends an email reminder.) I've even been embarrassed by offering an out-of-date CAMRA/Wetherspoons voucher!
In these circumstances I just say sorry and pay the penalty (hopefuly in this case just excessing it up to the single full fare), but it seems from the tales of woe on this and other threads that RPIs are going over the top and treating every occurrence as premeditated fraud.

If it was suspected premeditated fraud then the OP would be looking at a RoRA prosecution. They aren’t.

 

[221129]

If it was suspected premeditated fraud then the OP would be looking at a RoRA prosecution. They aren’t.

I didn't realise there has been any confirmation of that..