Boundary between northern and southern England on WCML

[Western Sunset]

I always felt that seeing the large base-load power stations such as Rugeley, Ratcliffe and West Burton, heralded the arrival of the "north". Of course, Didcot was the outlier...

 

[Meerkat]

The entire WCML is North of the Thames, so it’s all northern!

 

[59CosG95]

The entire WCML is North of the Thames, so it’s all northern!

By that logic, is the GWML east of Maidenhead northern?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chester is barely in England. Some of its suburbs are in Wales.

And its football ground... (though I think the access and public facilities are in England).
Saltney station and junction was in England, while the urban area was/is in Wales.
Chester PSB controls the railway across the border as far as the outskirts of Wrexham, and as far as Connah's Quay on the North Wales Coast line.
Carlisle PSB controls a little way across the border into Scotland.
Borders are funny things.

The BBC North Region was always defined as including "north Derbyshire, north Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire".
Which was presumably the reach of the original Holme Moss transmitter.

 

[CW2]

Traditionally on the WCML the boundary between West Midlands and North is at Madeley, the summit (and watershed) between Crewe and Stafford.

 

[The Planner]

Traditionally on the WCML the boundary between West Midlands and North is at Madeley, the summit (and watershed) between Crewe and Stafford.

Certainly in planning terms its Madeley.

 

[NeilWatson]

Deleted

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Traditionally on the WCML the boundary between West Midlands and North is at Madeley, the summit (and watershed) between Crewe and Stafford.

Certainly in planning terms its Madeley.

Isn't Whitmore (just north of the site of the old station) the actual summit of the line?
Around MP 148.

 

[CW2]

Isn't Whitmore (just north of the site of the old station) the actual summit of the line?
Around MP 148.

Yes, Whitmore is the actual summit but Madeley is the nearest operating location, and hence the administrative boundary.

 

[Gareth]

Presumably, it's Crewe or just south thereof. That is, the boundary between the Network Rail routes and where the Manchester & Rugby ROCs areas of operation are slated to meet.

 

[The Planner]

Presumably, it's Crewe or just south thereof. That is, the boundary between the Network Rail routes and where the Manchester & Rugby ROCs areas of operation are slated to meet.

There are different boundaries depending on what department you talk to. Planning was at Madeley and Mow Cop/Congleton, LNW south and north is at Armitage, Rugeley and Penkridge, the sectional appendix routes won't change for internal NW&C route boundaries.

How does that fit with the old Sectional Appendices and WTTs being "LMR [Western Lines] Crewe and South Thereof" and "Crewe and North Thereof?"

Nothing alters there, no one will change them.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

North of Milton Keynes and south of Crewe is Midlands. North of Crewe is North. South of Milton Keynes is south.

 

[Philip]

North of Milton Keynes and south of Crewe is Midlands. North of Crewe is North. South of Milton Keynes is south.

I find the accent can be a good non-official indicator. If we're to include the West Midlands then I think my initial suggestion of Kilsby is quite accurate between the Southern/RP accent turning into West Midlands. Both in railway, canal and urbanization terms I find Stafford and Stone the most northern points to hear a predominantly West Midlands accent.

Cheshire East might be geographically and officially in the north, but the accent certainly isn't 'northern'.

 

[eMeS]

North of Milton Keynes and south of Crewe is Midlands. North of Crewe is North. South of Milton Keynes is south.

Just to confuse matters, Milton Keynes seems to have been joined to Bedford (18 miles to the east) for NHS grouping purposes; and on TV yesterday (I think) I saw the first recognition of this new grouping.

 

[py_megapixel]

Heading north from London:
- Anything served by GTR, I consider to be the south, so I would say Milton Keynes is towards the north of the south
- Roughly between MK and Stoke , the local stopping services are primarily provided by West Midlands Trains, so you're in the Midlands
- Between Stoke and the Scottish border, the local stopping services are primarily provided by Northern, so you're in the North
- After that, you're in Scotland.

No idea if this is a sensible way to think about at all, but that's the way it is in my brain...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Heading north from London:
- Anything served by GTR, I consider to be the south, so I would say Milton Keynes is towards the north of the south
- Roughly between MK and Stoke , the local stopping services are primarily provided by West Midlands Trains, so you're in the Midlands
- Between Stoke and the Scottish border, the local stopping services are primarily provided by Northern, so you're in the North
- After that, you're in Scotland.

No idea if this is a sensible way to think about at all, but that's the way it is in my brain...

That's both as logical and as arbitrary as any analysis we've had so far.

So that would presumably place both Rugby and Stafford as in the "Midlands"?

 

[py_megapixel]

That's both as logical and as arbitrary as any analysis we've had so far.

So that would presumably place both Rugby and Stafford as in the "Midlands"?

Yes... it probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but honestly drawing a figurative line like this is always going to create some issues. In reality it's more of spectrum from northern to southern england - with Stafford clearly being more "northern" than Rugby, but neither being definitely in the North or the South.

To someone living in Cumbria, it likely feels that they're a long way into the south by the time they reach Rugby, but for someone living in Birmingham or Coventry possibly less so.

 

[73128]

When I was younger, and lived south of the Thames (and was roaming around the country on all-line rovers), I always considered that Watford tunnel led to the north. oh for the 0745 Euston to Glasgow and 1730 back (due Euston 2237) and the Electric Scots....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

North of Milton Keynes and south of Crewe is Midlands. North of Crewe is North. South of Milton Keynes is south.

In railway terms, HS2 will eventually dictate boundaries.
Assuming it reaches Crewe in essentially one bound (combining Phases 1 and 2a), that will put HS2 and its ETCS operation south of Crewe in the "south".
You'd maybe expect the current WCML south of there* to also be "south" (but probably under a different management), and that leaves everything north of Crewe as "north", as per ROC plans.
How HS2b north of Crewe and the linked NPR will be managed, is for the future.
And Crewe itself - under NR "north" I would guess.
We still don't know who will be controlling/maintaining HS2, and under what contractual basis.
(HS1 is operated by NR under contract to London & Continental, and the route is differently regulated to the classic network).

* Presumably the section around Colwich currently controlled from Stoke will eventually migrate to Rugby, making the 135 miles Watford-Crewe (exclusive) controlled from Rugby.

 

[The Planner]

In railway terms, HS2 will eventually dictate boundaries.
Assuming it reaches Crewe in essentially one bound (combining Phases 1 and 2a), that will put HS2 and its ETCS operation south of Crewe in the "south".
You'd maybe expect the current WCML south of there* to also be "south" (but probably under a different management), and that leaves everything north of Crewe as "north", as per ROC plans.
How HS2b north of Crewe and the linked NPR will be managed, is for the future.
And Crewe itself - under NR "north" I would guess.
We still don't know who will be controlling/maintaining HS2, and under what contractual basis.
(HS1 is operated by NR under contract to London & Continental, and the route is differently regulated to the classic network).

* Presumably the section around Colwich currently controlled from Stoke will eventually migrate to Rugby, making the 135 miles Watford-Crewe (exclusive) controlled from Rugby.

Colwich goes into Rugby in 2023. I doubt the boundaries need to change, NR and HS2 have a route boundary and thats it, there needs to be one somewhere around the signal system transition anyway.

 

[Watershed]

making the 135 miles Watford-Crewe (exclusive) controlled from Rugby.

I imagine that will make it the longest section of route continuously controlled by one signal box/SCC? York ROC has a greater overall geographic reach (Kings Cross to just north of Northallerton) but Peterborough and Doncaster PSBs control quite a bit of the route in between.

 

[40129]

I always used to think of the Midlands as being the part of the country where the Midland Red Omnibus Co ran the local town services. This split both Staffordshire and Oxfordshire in two as PMT ran Stoke on Trent and City of Oxford ran Oxford, whereas Midland Red ran Stafford and Banbury*

* IIRC Stagecoach now run Banbury as part of their Oxfordshire rather than Midland Red South operation though they still use the old Midland Red 'B' prefix for Banbury town services

 

[midland1]

North of Milton Keynes and south of Crewe is Midlands. North of Crewe is North. South of Milton Keynes is south.

Back in the 1970s they used to an advert for some beer a group of men were talking about where the midlands were and one said it starts at Bletchley and ends at Crewe so I think the above is about right. Northampton to me is in the midlands, as Northamptonshire is part of the shires( Leic, Derby, Notts, Linc.)

 

[norbitonflyer]

On the opposite side of the Country Lincoln similarly straggles both as the city is firmly midlands but the rest of the county is certainly northern.

Brought up in Lincoln by London-born parents. I wouldn't say that Lincolnshire as a whole is northern. In fact the three old "Parts" of Lincolnshire seem to belong to different regions - Lindsey (the part of the county north of the Witham and Fossdyke) is definitely northern in character, particularly the industrial belt by the Humber. The south western part, Kesteven, is a typical East Midland Shire county. And the Parts of Holland, in the SE, as its name suggests, is part of the fenlands of East Anglia.
The City of Lincoln is an oddity though - north of the river, and in particular the "uphill" area, felt more "shire county" than the southern part which had a lot of heavy industry in the past.

For most purposes though I would put the North/South divide as the River Trent, which crosses the ECML at Newark and the WCML at Rugeley. (I ignore the fact that it crosses back at Colwich!)

 

[BeijingDave]

Therefore, officlally, many parts of the Midlands are further north than places which are 'up north' proper and vice versa. This will not necessarily coincide with the perceptions of people who live in those borderline areas between 'Midlands' and 'North' as to whether they consider themselves to be 'Midlanders' or 'Northerners'. Places like Retford, Worksop, Glossop, Buxton, Stoke on Trent, Newcastle under Lyme, Chesterfield etc all spring to mind, all in the Midlands but their next nearest major regional city not being so. Accents, TV channels, which major regional centre they look towards for work, retail etc will all influence or distort that self or others perception of regional identity or affiliation one way or the other.

The same applies between the Midlands and the South. Banbury is in the 'South East' because it is in Oxfordshire whereas Kings Sutton, a few miles south of Banbury, is in the 'East Midlands' because it is in Northamptonshire.

Hope that clears that up.

All countries that are contiguous landmasses will have grey areas, and it's reasonable to highlight them there (Stoke's a good example because no-one, including a mate of mine from The Potteries, knows if they are North West or Midlands and I don't think anyone really wants to claim them either).

However, only a Southerner who never leaves the South East could possibly think of Birmingham or Coventry as 'oop north' (as they often like to sarcastically say it).

 

[flixtonman]

In the early days of the M1 motorway there was a sign reading 'Hatfield and the North'. Perhaps it's still there.

 

[Gareth]

The main cultural North/South divide in this country is a line from the Severn to the Wash. It's our Mason-Dixon line.

 

[Nottingham59]

a line from the Severn to the Wash

Which interestingly intersects the WCML at Kilsby tunnel .....

 

[muddythefish]

I lived in the NE for 3 years before moving South to West Yorkshire

A work colleague in Darlington said he's got a job "down south"...... which turned out to be Manchester!

 

[muddythefish]

The main cultural North/South divide in this country is a line from the Severn to the Wash. It's our Mason-Dixon line.

Yes, agree. South of it there is no culture.

On the WCML, travelling from the north I always considered the train to be in the "south" once it had gone past the Bletchley area.