Boundary Zone 4 to Bedford Off Peak Day Return

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Keith Jarrett

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Several connected questions.
Note that I have a disabled railcard as well as an annual zone 1-4 travelcard. I propose using this ticket as a means of travelling from London to use a 3 in 7 East Midlands Rover on a weekday in August.
1. How much for the BZ4 to Bedford Off Peak Day Return with the Railcard please?
2. What are the morning peak restrictions M-F on the BZ4 to Bedford Off Peak Day Return?
3. I believe that I am OK to use East Midlands Trains services from/to St Pancras that do not call at Bedford as National Conditions of Carriage 19(c) applies. Assuming there are morning peak restrictions on the off peak day return BZ4 to Bedford ticket, what is the first available train from St Pancras to Leicester?
4. Finally, is there a separate off peak day return fare for travel BZ4 via Watford & Bletchley to Bedford? If so, how much and what at the MF morning peak restrictions?
All assistance appreciated.
 
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John @ home

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I believe that I am OK to use East Midlands Trains services from/to St Pancras that do not call at Bedford as National Conditions of Carriage 19(c) applies.
Sorry, Condition 19(c) does not apply in this instance. You intend to use:
  • an annual zone 1-4 travelcard. This is a Season Ticket.
  • a Railcard Boundary Zone 4 - Bedford Off Peak Day Return. This is neither a Season Ticket nor a leisure travel pass.
  • a 3-in-7 East Midlands Rover. This is a leisure travel pass.
Condition 19(c) states:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and ...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.
This allows one or more other ticket(s) to be combined with one Season Ticket or leisure travel pass. It does not allow allows one or more other ticket(s) to be combined with more than one ticket in the category "Season Ticket or leisure travel pass".
 

calc7

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Interesting question related to John @ home's post:

In making a journey along a line A-B-C-D-E, with an A-B season, a B-D single and a D-E season; on a train calling at A-C-E, could a passenger argue that they are making two successive journeys (given the calling point is at a place on the single ticket) and use this through train?
 

MikeWh

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Interesting question related to John @ home's post:

In making a journey along a line A-B-C-D-E, with an A-B season, a B-D single and a D-E season; on a train calling at A-C-E, could a passenger argue that they are making two successive journeys (given the calling point is at a place on the single ticket) and use this through train?
If BOJ was allowed on the single then probably, yes. Otherwise I'd say you were pushing things a little too far.
 

headshot119

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You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and ...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.


John, is that correct? My bold? I read that as saying at least one of the tickets has to be a season / leisure pass, the others can be, or don't have to be.
 

John @ home

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You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and ...
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.
I read that as saying at least one of the tickets has to be a season / leisure pass, the others can be, or don't have to be.
I take a different view. My opinion is that 19(c) requires that:
  • one (and only one) of the tickets is a Season Ticket or a leisure travel pass, and
  • the other ticket(s) are neither Season Tickets nor leisure travel passes.
 

RJ

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Interesting question related to John @ home's post:

In making a journey along a line A-B-C-D-E, with an A-B season, a B-D single and a D-E season; on a train calling at A-C-E, could a passenger argue that they are making two successive journeys (given the calling point is at a place on the single ticket) and use this through train?
I don't think so. I'd happily use a Zone 1-2 Season Travelcard, a BZ2 to Bedford and EM 3 in 7 on a train that stops at Bedford then Leicester. But if it only stopped at Luton then Leicester, I wouldn't risk it. I personally feel that such a combination would be drawing on both Parts B and C.

I take a different view. My opinion is that 19(c) requires that:
  • one (and only one) of the tickets is a Season Ticket or a leisure travel pass, and
  • the other ticket(s) are neither Season Tickets nor leisure travel passes.
Agreed, clearly says one period ticket only and the rest non-period tickets for the combination to qualify.

 
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bb21

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I don't think so. I'd happily use a Zone 1-2 Season Travelcard, a BZ2 to Bedford and EM 3 in 7 on a train that stops at Bedford then Leicester. But if it only stopped at Luton then Leicester, I wouldn't risk it. I personally feel that such a combination would be drawing on both Parts B and C.
If the train calls at Luton, I am of the opinion that you would be using 19(c) twice to remain on the same train, claiming two separate journeys: on to Luton and one from Luton. I see no reason why this is not permitted.
 

RJ

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Several connected questions.
Note that I have a disabled railcard as well as an annual zone 1-4 travelcard. I propose using this ticket as a means of travelling from London to use a 3 in 7 East Midlands Rover on a weekday in August.
1. How much for the BZ4 to Bedford Off Peak Day Return with the Railcard please?
2. What are the morning peak restrictions M-F on the BZ4 to Bedford Off Peak Day Return?
3. I believe that I am OK to use East Midlands Trains services from/to St Pancras that do not call at Bedford as National Conditions of Carriage 19(c) applies. Assuming there are morning peak restrictions on the off peak day return BZ4 to Bedford ticket, what is the first available train from St Pancras to Leicester?
4. Finally, is there a separate off peak day return fare for travel BZ4 via Watford & Bletchley to Bedford? If so, how much and what at the MF morning peak restrictions?
All assistance appreciated.
1. £11.15.

2. You may depart St Pancras at or after 09:00 and return at any time. Break of journey permitted.

3. I agree with the first reply made by John @ Home

4. £11.15. Route Bletchley. Valid on any train except those timed to depart before 09:15. Return by any train.
 

34D

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If the train calls at Luton, I am of the opinion that you would be using 19(c) twice to remain on the same train, claiming two separate journeys: on to Luton and one from Luton. I see no reason why this is not permitted.
I agree with bb (about calling st panc, luton and leicester).

As always, its what a judge thinks that matters.

Are we sure that the proposed rover constitutes a season?
 

John @ home

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Are we sure that the proposed rover constitutes a season?
It is a leisure travel pass.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage - Condition 19 said:
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
 

LexyBoy

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I'd find it a bit cheeky to claim what is obviously a single journey as being two journeys in order to make use of 19(c). Disembarking at C would be required in calc7's example by my interpretation (or asking the guard in advance).

I don't think so. I'd happily use a Zone 1-2 Season Travelcard, a BZ2 to Bedford and EM 3 in 7 on a train that stops at Bedford then Leicester. But if it only stopped at Luton then Leicester, I wouldn't risk it. I personally feel that such a combination would be drawing on both Parts B and C.
Would you feel the same if it were a Day Travelcard rather than a Season? Or a London-West Hampstead Season and WHD-BDM SDS?

It's my understanding that BZ tickets are not zonal tickets, but rather count as an excess fare. I think it makes sense to call your London-Bedford ticket a non-season ticket, as the Season-BZ combination is only valid for 1 day. Therefore you are combining a Season (the Rover) with a non-Season (the Travelcard/BZ tickets), and as such there's no need to call at Bedford.

Just my thoughts...
 

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I'd find it a bit cheeky to claim what is obviously a single journey as being two journeys in order to make use of 19(c). Disembarking at C would be required in calc7's example by my interpretation (or asking the guard in advance).



Would you feel the same if it were a Day Travelcard rather than a Season? Or a London-West Hampstead Season and WHD-BDM SDS?

It's my understanding that BZ tickets are not zonal tickets, but rather count as an excess fare. I think it makes sense to call your London-Bedford ticket a non-season ticket, as the Season-BZ combination is only valid for 1 day. Therefore you are combining a Season (the Rover) with a non-Season (the Travelcard/BZ tickets), and as such there's no need to call at Bedford.

Just my thoughts...
If it was a Day Travelcard then it would count under Condition 19c.

I would feel the same as previously stated if BZ2 was substituted for WHP.

How could anyone justify ending and starting a new journey whilst remaining on the same train? Think anyone trying this deserves to have the book thrown at them!

 

bb21

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Previously stated if BZ2 was substituted for WHP.

How could anyone justify ending and starting a new journey whilst remaining on the same train? Think anyone trying this deserves to have the book thrown at them!

So get off the train and immediately back on again. This just gets silly.
 

RJ

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So get off the train and immediately back on again. This just gets silly.
That's not ending and starting a new journey. People generally leave the train altogether and go about their business at the end of a journey.

The only thing that's silly is this inane interpretation of the rules! I don't expect anybody with a reasonable approach to accept that a journey can be ended without getting off the train altogether. It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
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LexyBoy

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You can't have your cake and eat it.

If the A-E train were the last train of the day and broke down at C, would you be content to be left there on the basis that you had completed your journey? The Railway is after all under no responsibility to ensure that you can complete a second, unrelated journey.
 

RJ

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There does seem to be a certain desperation to extract the urine out of the written/unwritten word. Just because there isn't a given definition of the word "journey" in the CoC, it doesn't mean it can be taken to mean anything.

I don't think it does the forum's reputation any favours at all to see established members trying to peddle the idea that you can end a journey without getting off a train.
 

34D

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There does seem to be a certain desperation to extract the urine out of the written/unwritten word. Just because there isn't a given definition of the word "journey" in the CoC, it doesn't mean it can be taken to mean anything.

I don't think it does the forum's reputation any favours at all to see established members trying to peddle the idea that you can end a journey without getting off a train.
Well you use three tickets for one journey, and so I don't see why one ticket can't be used for two journeys.

Don't think I'd have put it in the same way as you though
 

bb21

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The kind of question that will continue to see the site and associated ventures ridiculed!

I don't think ATOC will be that concerned about this discussion seeing some of the other things that have been discussed on here. ;)
 

RJ

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Well you use three tickets for one journey, and so I don't see why one ticket can't be used for two journeys.

Don't think I'd have put it in the same way as you though
Yes, but anything I do is clearly permitted by text which I can readily refer to. I do normal journeys which involve starting at a station and ultimately end with me leaving the system at another station. Using multiple tickets to do this is permitted by Condition 19.

How can you end a journey without actually getting off the train? I wouldn't even want to see an enthusiast trying to explain this to a guard with "Define a journey" as it would be plain cringeworthy.

I don't think ATOC will be that concerned about this discussion seeing some of the other things that have been discussed on here. ;)
So have they confirmed that the will be including a definition of the word journey in the next version of the CoC then :p.

It's a given that they will take on valid points made in other, more sensible discussions but I don't see how this one in particular will be considered as important with regards to their members or the overwhelming majority of passengers.

I'm sure ATOC and the TOCs have acted on things posted on here like loopholes that are beneficial to the passenger - good shout!
 
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MikeWh

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As a point of interest, we often suggest ending a journey and starting another straight away on this forum. Often it will be a return ticket where multiple routes exist with the actual destination being on the return leg.
 

RJ

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As a point of interest, we often suggest ending a journey and starting another straight away on this forum. Often it will be a return ticket where multiple routes exist with the actual destination being on the return leg.
That's not ending a journey though - the destination shown on the ticket doesn't necessarily signify the ultimate destination one ia travelling to.

 
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