BR Blue in the 1960s

[40135]

I'm just curious (this is in part going to help with my railway modelling, but it's not only about that, hence why I'm starting the thread here) as to what extent BR Blue could be seen in the 1960s?

I understand it began in 1966, but would Class 37s, for instance, have been seen much in blue alongside the likes of late crest A4s on the ECML?

Were most A4s gone by this point?

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'm just curious (this is in part going to help with my railway modelling, but it's not only about that, hence why I'm starting the thread here) as to what extent BR Blue could be seen in the 1960s?

I understand it began in 1966, but would Class 37s, for instance, have been seen much in blue alongside the likes of late crest A4s on the ECML?

Were most A4s gone by this point?

This site is a good starting point, there's a very detailed chronology and gallery

http://www.railblue.com/

I suggest searching the site for your year of interest and then flicking through the pictures that come up. No result for "A4" though other than a snippet of text. "Steam" has a few hits such as http://www.railblue.com/pages/Photo%20Galleries/David%20Mant%20Collection/DMC_D2412_PT_310765.htm

 

[46223]

I think the remaining A4s were all withdrawn in September 1966.

BR blue was first seen 1n 1964 with the introduction of 'XP64' passenger stock in blue and grey and a Brush type 4 (class 47) No. D1733 (I think) in blue.

Edit: Forgot about the Blue Pullmans which, of course, appeared a few years earlier.

 

[DXMachina]

There's a photo somewhere of a 2-6-4T pushing a rake of blue/grey mk1s into a london terminus station for a Bulleid pacific to pull, in the last few weeks of steam on the SR

 

[Bevan Price]

I think the remaining A4s were all withdrawn in September 1966.

BR blue was first seen 1n 1964 with the introduction of 'XP64' passenger stock in blue and grey and a Brush type 4 (class 47) No. D1733 (I think) in blue.

Edit: Forgot about the Blue Pullmans which, of course, appeared a few years earlier.

And the electric locos E3001 onwards, that later became classes 81 to 85, albeit in a slightly different shade of blue to that later adopted as the standard.

 

[Royston Vasey]

A Merchant Navy 4-6-2 on a boat train with a mix of green Bulleid coaches and what appear to be blue/grey Mk 1s here, near the bottom of the page http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/catlin.htm

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm just curious (this is in part going to help with my railway modelling, but it's not only about that, hence why I'm starting the thread here) as to what extent BR Blue could be seen in the 1960s?

I understand it began in 1966, but would Class 37s, for instance, have been seen much in blue alongside the likes of late crest A4s on the ECML?

Were most A4s gone by this point?

By 1966, the only A4s in regular service were in Scotland, for the Glasgow - Aberdeen services - the last A4s at English depots were withdrawn during 1965. Apart from those sold for preservation, all A4s finished their lives in BR green livery.

Kings Cross steam depot closed during 1963, and apart from railtours, very few A4s (or other pacifics) appeared south of Peterborough after June 1963.
(And although not unknown, Class 37 was not common at the London end of the ECML when I lived 5 minutes walk from Harringay (West) station in 1963/1965. )

 

[46223]

And the electric locos E3001 onwards, that later became classes 81 to 85, albeit in a slightly different shade of blue to that later adopted as the standard.

Yes indeed. Forgot about those too. This old age has not a lot going for it!

 

[40135]

Some brilliant information and links posted in here, thank-you so much guys!

It's a fair bet A4s weren't seen with anything more blue than the occasional B/G coach in the very early days of such liveries then.

Thank-you once again.

 

[Taunton]

There were also the Glasgow electric 'Blue Trains' from 1960, of course.

When the blue/grey livery came along, apart from some special events little or no effort was made to marshal vehicles by colour, so stock was very mixed. I'm sure I saw a photo in a magazine at the time of about a 10 coach train with alternate vehicles in old and new colours. Even Trans-Pennine express dmus, one of the few dmus to receive the two-tone livery, could be seen in service with a mix of colours, and this could be worse if, as not infrequently happened, one of the driving cars was replaced by a local service Met-Cam car in all blue.

Because the green on the Southern was being replaced as well, and because there was a substantial inter-regional switch-around of stock in the years leading up to the Bournemouth electrification, there were also notable three-livery green, red and blue/grey trains running both out of Waterloo and from the South Coast up to The North. The Waterloo-Exeter service was a particular case.

 

[40135]

There were also the Glasgow electric 'Blue Trains' from 1960, of course.

When the blue/grey livery came along, apart from some special events little or no effort was made to marshal vehicles by colour, so stock was very mixed. I'm sure I saw a photo in a magazine at the time of about a 10 coach train with alternate vehicles in old and new colours. Even Trans-Pennine express dmus, one of the few dmus to receive the two-tone livery, could be seen in service with a mix of colours, and this could be worse if, as not infrequently happened, one of the driving cars was replaced by a local service Met-Cam car in all blue.

Because the green on the Southern was being replaced as well, and because there was a substantial inter-regional switch-around of stock in the years leading up to the Bournemouth electrification, there were also notable three-livery green, red and blue/grey trains running both out of Waterloo and from the South Coast up to The North. The Waterloo-Exeter service was a particular case.

Lovely information!

I do like the motley collection of liveries that could be seen...

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I think that BR Blue/Grey livery was very smart looking, after of course the older traditional colours of the SR, GWR, & LMS. Much better than some of the modern day liverys.

I thought that brown/orange that came in the late 1970s/1980s was awful.

I was pleased to see that when the super, but sadly short lived, service from Marylebone to Shropshire used that blue/grey livery again. It always looked very smart indeed.

 

[40135]

I think that BR Blue/Grey livery was very smart looking, after of course the older traditional colours of the SR, GWR, & LMS. Much better than some of the modern day liverys.

I thought that brown/orange that came in the late 1970s/1980s was awful.

I was pleased to see that when the super, but sadly short lived, service from Marylebone to Shropshire used that blue/grey livery again. It always looked very smart indeed.

Was that the Hull Trains set?

I know Chiltern operate out of Marylebone and they use (used?) Mark 3 stock in blue.

The Hull Trains DVT looked fabulous in blue.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Was that the Hull Trains set?

I know Chiltern operate out of Marylebone and they use (used?) Mark 3 stock in blue.

The Hull Trains DVT looked fabulous in blue.

I don't know if it was a Hull Trains set....I only know what Hull Trains look like now which is a sort of first group purple/blue colour. (I did travel with Hull Trains not long after they first started when it was something to do with Anglia Trains and on the KX/Hull route they used 3 car diesel units, (when I went it was 2 units joined up to form a 6 car set) and the livery then was a greenish colour)

The Marylebone to Shropshire trains which lasted a year or 2 I think, was infact called Wrexham & Shropshire railway and I think did have a sort of connection with Chiltern Railways. The trains was comprised of a big diesel loco, 3 or 4 Mk 3 carriages that had been refurbished in a good way and painted as I say in the BR Blue/grey livery, then there was a Driving unit the other end so the Diesel did not have to run around at the Terminus.

It's those carriages which have been painted a gray/silver colour and is called the silver trains service that Chiltern now have and use on some of the Marylebone/Birmingham services and are really good.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't know if it was a Hull Trains set....I only know what Hull Trains look like now which is a sort of first group purple/blue colour. (I did travel with Hull Trains not long after they first started when it was something to do with Anglia Trains and on the KX/Hull route they used 3 car diesel units, (when I went it was 2 units joined up to form a 6 car set) and the livery then was a greenish colour)

At that time Hull Trains were hiring three car class 170 DMUs from Anglia Railways to work their services.

Hull Trains loco-hauled mark 3 set came later: After their own "Pioneer" unit 222103 had been dropped on the deck, the mark 3 set was brought in as cover: BR blue liveried 86101 was hired from the AC Loco Group, the blue & grey mark 3s came from Cargo-D, and DVT 82115 was painted in a non-authentic BR blue livery to match.

The Marylebone to Shropshire trains which lasted a year or 2 I think, was infact called Wrexham & Shropshire railway and I think did have a sort of connection with Chiltern Railways. The trains was comprised of a big diesel loco, 3 or 4 Mk 3 carriages that had been refurbished in a good way and painted as I say in the BR Blue/grey livery, then there was a Driving unit the other end so the Diesel did not have to run around at the Terminus.

Wrexham & Shropshire initially hired mark 3 carriages from Cargo-D when they first set up, who had their fleet painted in BR blue/grey colours. At the start these were top and tailed with class 67 locos, as the DVTs had not yet been converted to work with class 67s.

By the time that W&S had received their small fleet of class 67 compatible 823xx DVTs, Wrexham & Shropshire had begun to introduce their own refurbished mark 3 carriages in their silver/grey livery to match the DVTs, though at least one blue & grey rake remained in service right up to the end, most commonly paired with the unique Chiltern blue & white liveried DVT, 82302.

Wrexham & Shropshire did seem to have a good working arrangement with Chiltern, and later in their short life of course they were both under DB ownership.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

Some brilliant information and links posted in here, thank-you so much guys!

It's a fair bet A4s weren't seen with anything more blue than the occasional B/G coach in the very early days of such liveries then.

Thank-you once again.

That is correct. There must have been very few blue locomotives in service anywhere when the last A4s were withdrawn from Scotland. However, if you want to run the occasional A4 alongside blue and green diesels, you could always have one on a 1967 railtour before the steam ban came into operation.

I think 60009 ran on a few specials that year, although they were mainly confined to Scotland.

 

[euryalus]

The question at the start of this thread was asking about the extent to which corporate blue livery could be seen in the 1960s, and I would say that, by about 1968, it was widespread. By the time I went to university in 1970 there were very few green engines or dmus left. The "transition period" between the old and new liveries came in 1966-68.

 

[theblackwatch]

The question at the start of this thread was asking about the extent to which corporate blue livery could be seen in the 1960s, and I would say that, by about 1968, it was widespread. By the time I went to university in 1970 there were very few green engines or dmus left. The "transition period" between the old and new liveries came in 1966-68.

This maes it all the more bizarre that one or two preserved railway which try to portray the 1960s image seem to desist from the use of BR blue or blue/grey.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

The question at the start of this thread was asking about the extent to which corporate blue livery could be seen in the 1960s, and I would say that, by about 1968, it was widespread. By the time I went to university in 1970 there were very few green engines or dmus left. The "transition period" between the old and new liveries came in 1966-68.

That is a rather sweeping statement, which seems to be a result of distant memories playing tricks as one gets older.

There were certainly far more than "very few" green engines left in 1970. There were "very few" green engines left in 1978, and it is believed that 20141 was the final survivor into 1980 before being painted blue.

You might like to read http://www.railblue.com/rail_blue_history_2.htm which lists all the locos that were green for long enough to be renumbered into the TOPS scheme before receiving attention from the blue painters.

 

[euryalus]

That is a rather sweeping statement, which seems to be a result of distant memories playing tricks as one gets older.

The statement is nothing to do with "distant memories playing tricks" - it is based upon observations at places such as Witney, Oxford and Lancaster, and on the evidence of 35 mm colour slides taken during the period 1969-1973. As far as the Witney branch was concerned, blue class 22s were predominant by 1968/69, and every railtour that visited the branch in its final months of operation was in blue or blue & grey livery. The last green unit to visit the branch was a class 117 set on 14 September 1968. Interestingly, some of the Warships used on the OW&WR route were still in maroon livery circa-1968, and they were hauling blue & grey coaches.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

This maes it all the more bizarre that one or two preserved railway which try to portray the 1960s image seem to desist from the use of BR blue or blue/grey.

I think the NYMR have a rake of a few blue/grey carriages, and some of the other preserved railways have some blue DMUs.

I liked the blue/grey livery of that area. Not so keen on plain blue though.

 

[Madge Wildfire]

That is a rather sweeping statement, which seems to be a result of distant memories playing tricks as one gets older.

The statement is nothing to do with "distant memories playing tricks" - it is based upon observations at places such as Witney, Oxford and Lancaster, and on the evidence of 35 mm colour slides taken during the period 1969-1973. As far as the Witney branch was concerned, blue class 22s were predominant by 1968/69, and every railtour that visited the branch in its final months of operation was in blue or blue & grey livery. The last green unit to visit the branch was a class 117 set on 14 September 1968. Interestingly, some of the Warships used on the OW&WR route were still in maroon livery circa-1968, and they were hauling blue & grey coaches.

Unfortunately, using a few unrepresentative branch lines with a regular blue diesel as local power for trains does not tally with the wider picture.

As for colour slides, one would have to know if the photographer was deliberately concentrating on newly painted blue locomotives, rather than the green of the "old regime", then seen as outdated and associated with the steam era. You can watch old steam videos of NW England and believe that diesels hardly existed in 1967/8, mainly because the cameramen (with one or two exceptions) did their utmost to avoid filming the "boxes on wheels".

Lancaster would have seen more than its fair share of class 50s in those days, locos that were delivered in blue when new, so that is not representative of the pattern elsewhere, either.

Anyway, there are plenty of Railway Observer magazines which show the true picture, and prove the statement "in 1970 there were very few green engines or dmus left" to be incorrect.

 

[neilmc]

That is a rather sweeping statement, which seems to be a result of distant memories playing tricks as one gets older.

Unfortunately, using a few unrepresentative branch lines with a regular blue diesel as local power for trains does not tally with the wider picture.

As for colour slides, one would have to know if the photographer was deliberately concentrating on newly painted blue locomotives, rather than the green of the "old regime", then seen as outdated and associated with the steam era. You can watch old steam videos of NW England and believe that diesels hardly existed in 1967/8, mainly because the cameramen (with one or two exceptions) did their utmost to avoid filming the "boxes on wheels".

Lancaster would have seen more than its fair share of class 50s in those days, locos that were delivered in blue when new, so that is not representative of the pattern elsewhere, either.

Anyway, there are plenty of Railway Observer magazines which show the true picture, and prove the statement "in 1970 there were very few green engines or dmus left" to be incorrect.

I was still spotting in 1970 and I'd say green locos probably comprised 30%+ of main line diesels, the more so for classes such as 20 and 47 many of which were only a few years old. The freight examples tended to stay green much longer than the passenger ones or classes such as Westerns and Deltics which did a lot more mileage, though some green locos were admittedly in a filthy condition.

 

[euryalus]

Unfortunately, using a few unrepresentative branch lines with a regular blue diesel as local power for trains does not tally with the wider picture. As for colour slides, one would have to know if the photographer was deliberately concentrating on newly painted blue locomotives, rather than the green of the "old regime", then seen as outdated and associated with the steam era.

The original question was, "to what extent BR Blue could be seen in the 1960s?" and I don't think anyone really answered the question - the thread having gone way off track by talking about A4 Pacifics, etc. All I am saying is that, in my personal experience, BR blue was widespread by 1968 and predominant by 1970. That is based upon observations (and my own photographs) in, around and between Oxford and Lancaster.

Of course, the WCML would have had a larger than average quota of blue engines because the Class 50s were turned out in blue from their very inception - to that extent the Preston/Lancster area may not have been entirely typical. However, the Class 117 units used between Oxford and Paddington (or most of them) were in all-over blue by about 1969-70. On the other hand, the last 08 that I saw at Witney (or was it a class 10?) was in the all-over black livery that pre-dated the green colour scheme.

 

[Taunton]

Of course, the WCML would have had a larger than average quota of blue engines because the Class 50s were turned out in blue from their very inception.

Also on the WCML, the electric locos were always blue; I think many people never really noticed their change in shade from the previous Electric Blue to the slightly darker Rail Blue. Furthermore, it needed coaching stock with electric heating, which had not been common until about 1960, so much modern, and indeed most LMR new, vehicles were concentrated there.

There were certainly quite a number of blue/grey coaches around before the end of steam. The final steam mainstream passenger service in 1968, the "15 guinea special", was mostly blue/grey

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Steam/UK0410.jpg

On the Western, they had painted many of the Westerns in maroon (although there were always some green ones), and then followed on with repainting a number of the green Warships into this colour as well, shortly before the blue standard, so there was a time in the mid-late 1960s when there seemed to be equal numbers of all three colours around.

 

[46223]

There were certainly quite a number of blue/grey coaches around before the end of steam. The final steam mainstream passenger service in 1968, the "15 guinea special", was mostly blue/grey

The last steam hauled named train on BR, the 'Belfast Boat Express' had all blue / grey stock in 1968.

 

[euryalus]

I was still spotting in 1970 and I'd say green locos probably comprised 30%+ of main line diesels, the more so for classes such as 20 and 47 many of which were only a few years old. The freight examples tended to stay green much longer than the passenger ones or classes such as Westerns and Deltics which did a lot more mileage, though some green locos were admittedly in a filthy condition.

I would say that, on balance, this figure is probably about right as far as locomotives are concerned, although coaches and dmus seem to have appeared in blue livery at a somewhat faster rate. LMR freight locos at places such as Carnforth were often still in green by 1969-70, which makes it even odder that the class 22s on the WR (which were being withdrawn by that stage) were often painted in the new blue livery. There were also a few hybrid liveries, such as green class 22s with double arrow symbols, and blue Hymeks with pale green body stripes and off-white window surrounds.

 

[Royston Vasey]

No specific dates on this video but it's listed at 1958-1967 "Waterloo Sunset" with Merchant Navy class and plenty others. Occasional blue mark Is but no full trains at this point. Fascinating watch in its own right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjzXLMi8ANE

 

[Taunton]

There weren't a lot of repaints of hauled stock on the Waterloo line. The Southern had built quite a lot of Bulleid main line stock after nationalisation, and the newest of these had concentrated at Waterloo after electrification elsewhere, and would be scrapped once the line was electrified. The best and most recent BR standard stock on the Southern, meanwhile, was withdrawn for conversion to the 4-REP and 4-TC units, which were mostly rebuilds rather than all-new. What blue/grey stock was to be seen there was mainly on the Exeter trains which had become the responsibility of the WR.