BR Intercity Network

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ainsworth74

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I mean I think you may need to narrow down your request slightly! That's basically like asking for a list of services operated by LNER, XC, Caledonian Sleeper, Avanti, GatEx, GWR (long-distance) and GA (London - Norwich) as well as host of extra services that don't exist anymore! It's quite an expansive request...

If you've got anything specific in mind I can root around my GBTTs for 1975 and 1989 for information and if there's anything in the former North Eastern Region of interest I have one a regional timetable from 1964 as well.
 

gordonthemoron

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I seem to remember that in the 80s, possibly 70s too, Manchester Victoria was the only Inter City station without a direct service to London
 

tbwbear

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see this map from 1970

That is a fascinating map. Was it done again in that (copy of the tube) format after 1970. I vaguely remember it ?

Obviously it doesn't show the whole Inter-City network of 1970 as it is just showing London links.

Interesting how it shows the detail of Manchester via Crewe/Stoke and Sheffield via Derby/Nottingham (even the reversal at Nottingham has to be shown) but skips other places like Holyhead (as mentioned) and maybe also Shrewsbury, Lincoln/Grimsby and anywhere in Scotland north of Glasgow / Edinburgh. There were direct day trains to Aberdeen in 1970 weren't there ? Or am I mistaken?
 
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WesternLancer

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I notice interestingly Holyhead to Euston is not on that map.
Yes, all sorts of things you might expect to be on it in 1970 were not - but then I doubt IC was quite as 'cast in stone' then as it became after sectorisation, as it were. The map may have been driven more by marketing people than operations people perhaps.
 

YorksLad12

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Yes, all sorts of things you might expect to be on it in 1970 were not - but then I doubt IC was quite as 'cast in stone' then as it became after sectorisation, as it were. The map may have been driven more by marketing people than operations people perhaps.
If it shows reversals it's probably driven by operations than marketing (in my experience).
 

tbwbear

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Yes, all sorts of things you might expect to be on it in 1970 were not - but then I doubt IC was quite as 'cast in stone' then as it became after sectorisation, as it were. The map may have been driven more by marketing people than operations people perhaps.

That is true enough. It probably wasn't defined too well back then. Inter-city was written on the side of some of the coaches and they had these maps, but was there an actual defined network as such?

I was giving the excellent (November 1969) BBC documentary - "Engines must not enter the potato siding" another watch (it is on you tube) recently and I thought it was kind of sad that the driver of a 76 heading towards Manchester on the Woodhead passenger service (cut just a few months later in 1970) was claiming that their hourly service from Sheffield (in an hour) was actually one of the best Inter City services in the UK !

I bet the marketing people didn't class it as such !
 

WesternLancer

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If it shows reversals it's probably driven by operations than marketing (in my experience).
Possibly - but maybe the marketing people needed to make the poster 'look like' a tube map - so would have been appealing to them to have that in the image for graphic design reasons perhaps. It is a poster after all.
 
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tbwbear

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Just to address the OP's question on train lengths -


I would have thought 10-12 carriage trains would have been much more common out of most of the London terminii but especially Kings Cross and Paddington in 1970. As the decade goes on you get more "Deltic/47 plus eight and "Class 50/47 plus eight" type formations and then of course the HST in 1976-8.

Probably train lengths from Euston stayed more or less the same around 10-12 coaches and the EMUs on the Southern Region (Inter-city if you believe the 1970 poster) would probably have stayed more or less the same; mostly 8 or 12 car EMUs

I will stick my neck out and say the average Inter-city train length in 1982 was quite a bit shorter than 1970. There was a movement over 12 years to shorter but more frequent trains... is that fair ?
 

Ash Bridge

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I notice interestingly Holyhead to Euston is not on that map.
I’m wondering if that may have been something to do with the Brittania Bridge fire during 1970? I have this tea towel purchased a couple of years or so later and Holyhead appears to have been reinstated!
 

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WesternLancer

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I’m wondering if that may have been something to do with the Brittania Bridge fire during 1970? I have this tea towel purchased a couple of years or so later and Holyhead appears to have been reinstated!
I’m wondering if that may have been something to do with the Brittania Bridge fire during 1970? I have this tea towel purchased a couple of years or so later and Holyhead appears to have been reinstated!
very good point!
 

Taunton

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I think this was when York-Liverpool/Holyhead was Inter City and Cross Country didn't exist
Cross Country in that era was known as "North-East/South West", a longstanding long distance Inter City route, all the way from Newcastle to Plymouth. I think it was about 1974 that one service was extended to run Edinburgh to Paignton, which I amused the Edinburgh station staff by calling it the "Torbay Express".
 

tbwbear

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I’m wondering if that may have been something to do with the Brittania Bridge fire during 1970? I have this tea towel purchased a couple of years or so later and Holyhead appears to have been reinstated!

Kings Lynn is on the tea towel too.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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I’m wondering if that may have been something to do with the Brittania Bridge fire during 1970? I have this tea towel purchased a couple of years or so later and Holyhead appears to have been reinstated!

Could be, I would have thought it would have still gone as far as Bangor still though to connect to road transport to Holyhead for the ferry. The London services didn't stop completely did they while the bridge was rebuilt?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Cross Country in that era was known as "North-East/South West", a longstanding long distance Inter City route, all the way from Newcastle to Plymouth. I think it was about 1974 that one service was extended to run Edinburgh to Paignton, which I amused the Edinburgh station staff by calling it the "Torbay Express".

Inter City at one time described just the service level on the trains, and XC services would often be below that level, as well as not primarily serving London.
BR also went though a phase of combining Midland and XC services under one management ("MXC") which confused things further.
IC as a business eventually (1990?) took over all the assets linked to its services, collapsing the Regions which previously had supplied all the trains/staff.

I'm not sure any TP routes were ever regarded by BR as IC - York-Liverpool was "Regional" and so were all the stations en route including Leeds, Man Vic and maybe even Lime St.
 

hexagon789

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That is true enough. It probably wasn't defined too well back then. Inter-city was written on the side of some of the coaches and they had these maps, but was there an actual defined network as such?

I was giving the excellent (November 1969) BBC documentary - "Engines must not enter the potato siding" another watch (it is on you tube) recently and I thought it was kind of sad that the driver of a 76 heading towards Manchester on the Woodhead passenger service (cut just a few months later in 1970) was claiming that their hourly service from Sheffield (in an hour) was actually one of the best Inter City services in the UK !

I bet the marketing people didn't class it as such !
Maybe frequent but not very fast, post-1968 linespeed on the Woodhead line was cut to 60mph.

Cross Country in that era was known as "North-East/South West", a longstanding long distance Inter City route, all the way from Newcastle to Plymouth. I think it was about 1974 that one service was extended to run Edinburgh to Paignton, which I amused the Edinburgh station staff by calling it the "Torbay Express".
Very longstanding; the LNER and GWR operated a joint though service between similar points even as far back as the 1920s
 

MarlowDonkey

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There was a movement over 12 years to shorter but more frequent trains... is that fair ?


Faster presumably as well once the HST set a standard.

It may be relevant that the buffers at Paddington for example have moved further towards Reading without any compensating length being added at the other end.
 

Taunton

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Could be, I would have thought it would have still gone as far as Bangor still though to connect to road transport to Holyhead for the ferry. The London services didn't stop completely did they while the bridge was rebuilt?
The mail ships were not running from Holyhead. They were diverted to Heysham.
 

randyrippley

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Could be, I would have thought it would have still gone as far as Bangor still though to connect to road transport to Holyhead for the ferry. The London services didn't stop completely did they while the bridge was rebuilt?
Rerouted to Heysham I believe
 
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The 1981 equivalent of the map, albeit in black and white, is here (from the November 1981 ABC Guide, courtesy of Timetable World). Compared to the tea towel version, it appears to add Inverness (possibly the tea towel was pre-Clansman?), Aberdeen, Shrewsbury, Harrogate, Cleethorpes and Harwich Parkeston Quay, but Wolverhampton-Stafford disappears and the Nottingham reversal is no longer indicated.
 

busesrusuk

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The 1981 equivalent of the map, albeit in black and white, is here (from the November 1981 ABC Guide, courtesy of Timetable World). Compared to the tea towel version, it appears to add Inverness (possibly the tea towel was pre-Clansman?), Aberdeen, Shrewsbury, Harrogate, Cleethorpes and Harwich Parkeston Quay, but Wolverhampton-Stafford disappears and the Nottingham reversal is no longer indicated.
The difference in the timings between various places is interesting to see. Edinburgh has improved a fair bit with Glasgow now lagging behind compared to the 1970 map...
 

Ianno87

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The difference in the timings between various places is interesting to see. Edinburgh has improved a fair bit with Glasgow now lagging behind compared to the 1970 map...

Is it? Both are typically 4hrs 30mins or so from London (in the non-Covid universe)
 

busesrusuk

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Is it? Both are typically 4hrs 30mins or so from London (in the non-Covid universe)
I was comparing 1970 with 1980; according to those two maps:

1970 Glasgow 5hr 54 and in 1980 5hr 08

1970 Edinburgh 5hr 45 and in 1980 4hr 37
 
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