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BR Intercity Network

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KeithMcC

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Some of the shorter sleeper services had their uses. As a student in London there was a very annoying restriction stopping the use of student railcards on Friday afternoons out of K+ up to 19.00 - but the last train with a Sunderland connection was the 19.00. I therefore used the coast sleeper once or twice, the other option being a seated overnight service arriving into Newcastle at something like 04.00, then adjourn to the buffet to await the first Sunderland train! Not really fun, particularly the morning that the windows were frozen so I couldn't get the door open!
I also had later a project in Caernarfon with regular 10.00 meetings. No train up early enough so a regular method was to take a Holyhead sleeper, sleep on until 7 or so at the station then catch a local train back to Bangor.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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That's all that InterCity was, as far as I am concerned - a collection of profitable routes - a way of branding your flagship services - which is why it is such a strange combination of routes (e.g. an ordinary person might think that a Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Durham - Newcastle train serves slightly more stations than a non-stop London - Gatwick service but the former wasn't "InterCity" and the 80mph Class 73 on the latter was "InterCity").


Even nowadays, some enthusiasts try to act like there's some proper distinction between an "InterCity" route and a "non-InterCIty" route, as if BR had some criteria for the level of service or the frequency or the top speed - whereas it was only ever a way of advertising the most lucrative routes to the Great British Public (which is why it was fine to have disparities between different InterCity services - e.g. some CrossCountry ones were run by 158s!)

I don't know about the idea of getting rid of any route that didn't qualify for InterCity status - there were a lot of routes around London that didn't get InterCity but were never in danger under the Serpell suggestions - but InterCity was certainly a good benchmark of the kind of lines that BR thought had a healthy future
I'd just add that the DfT policy at the time was to organise BR into commercial, London commuter and Other Provincial services so that a debate about subsidy could be had for each sector.
All part of the management process to allocate revenue and costs directly to the services needing them, which gave us the sectors, and now the franchises.
Before then BR had no real idea where its money went.
The marketing just followed the business imperative.
It was also why OPS (Regional) was starved while IC got the investment.
London commuting (NSE) also got a lot more investment as its revenue potential was realised, with Regional still desperately trying to cut costs.
Regional, arguably, has never got out of that cycle.
 

greyman42

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I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?


There was a corresponding Overground by night poster produced to promote Inter-City Sleepers.
Some interesting long-gone overnight destinations are shown: Barrow-in-Furness, Stranraer, Hartlepool, Paris and the good old Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

medium_DS170577.jpg

Source: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...city-sleepers-overground-by-night-1974-poster
Copyright: The Board of Trustees of The Science Museum, London.
Reproduced under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)
I don't recall the Glasgow to Nottingham sleeper. When was this service withdrawn?
 
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I don't recall the Glasgow to Nottingham sleeper. When was this service withdrawn?
I think it only existed for a few years in that form (it was the remnant of the former London-Glasgow via MML sleeper - in fact, I think the seated coaches came from St Pancras and the sleepers were added at Nottingham). I can half-recall hearing 1977 or 1978 for the date of withdrawal. It's in the March 1973 Cook's but not in the May 1979 one.
 

hexagon789

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That sounds about right, and Euston Glasgow was mainly every two hours with a couple of extras, plus as far as Carlisle a 'semi-fast' from Euston to Carlisle which picked up all the stops Crewe inclusive northwards as most Glasgow's were Preston and Carlisle only plus some calls at Watford or Motherwell, and the Birmingham and Man/Liv trains also tended to miss most of the intermediate calls. Probably at best two trains every three hours between Preston and Carlisle and mainly hourly north thereof.
I recall mentioning in another thread the paucity of the main line calls at Oxenholme in this period.
Certainly the immediate post electrification timetable gave a two-hourly Euston-Glasgow and 4 daily Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh & 3 Liverpool/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh, the latter would make a roughly two-hourly service.

And the smaller stops seemed to get only a handful of token calls in the fast trains.

One plan mentioned in Modern Railways was to de-electrify north of Preston, with that becoming the terminus for Euston trains. Scotland would have been served by a diesel Manchester - Glasgow service................shades of TransPennine
And what a mess that would be

I think the first inter city branding on coaches was on the MK2 sets out of Euston from 1966 wasn’t it ? Was it ever applied to any Mk1 sets ?
Mk2As were the first. It was meant to be only applied to air braked stock but some 2Z were branded in error.

At that period there were about four a day to Birmingham (one extended to Plymouth), all I think split at Carstairs, and four/five in varying combinations to Liverpool/Manchester, some splitting at Carstairs, some doing so at Preston. They were all full length, maybe 10-11 coach trains, and also notable compared to today's TPE trains was how full they were. They were balanced through the day - you could get from Edinburgh to Liverpool in most hours in varying combinations.

Regarding how well used the line was, it was significantly more so at night, with sleepers, a notable number of parcels trains, Freightliners, and other freight of all combinations. I think there were more trains per hour over Shap between 00.01 and 06.00 than at any other time of day.
I do have timetables of the era, so I was just generalising rather than bothering looking it up to be honest.
 

D6130

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I don’t think the Intercity branding was actually applied to any mk2 until the beginning of the 1970s tbh, regarding mk1s if memory serves correct the only ones were Intercity Sleeper and Intercity Motorail stock. Now
I’ll wait for someone to prove me wrong on this ;)
Just been looking at my copy of Keith Parkin's excellent book "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" and the front cover colour photo is of FO no. 3107 in 'InterCity Executive' livery in 1988, with the later one word italic capitals branding at the left-hand end, viz. 'INTERCITY'. There is also a close up in black and white of the same vehicle inside the book, but the most unusual vehicle pictured, is a converted BSK branded 'Inter-City Exhibition Van' - presumably part of one of the sets kept at Salisbury for many years in the 'seventies and early 'eighties for travelling exhibition charters. Other than these few exceptions - and the aforementioned sleeper and Motorail stock, I think you are probably right.
 

tbtc

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I am sure there would have been a Scottish political element to it, plus Freightiner's went over to electric hauiage (often overnight using the loco off the daytime passenger trains). There was no diesel haulage of passenger trains north from Preston, that came much later with sectorisation and (mainly) HSTs (and 158s)..

Did they have their prospective new toy in mind, namely the APT? That was designed for the curving WCML rather than the straight ECML.

I'd just add that the DfT policy at the time was to organise BR into commercial, London commuter and Other Provincial services so that a debate about subsidy could be had for each sector.
All part of the management process to allocate revenue and costs directly to the services needing them, which gave us the sectors, and now the franchises.
Before then BR had no real idea where its money went.
The marketing just followed the business imperative.
It was also why OPS (Regional) was starved while IC got the investment.
London commuting (NSE) also got a lot more investment as its revenue potential was realised, with Regional still desperately trying to cut costs.
Regional, arguably, has never got out of that cycle.

^^ Good points made above ^^

I wasn't around at the time (of electrification) -my first knowledge of the WCML was of what was running when I was spending childhood weekends at Carstairs station in the 1980s - so thanks for explaining things that I'd not considered - it's a fascinating time in railway history
 

Ash Bridge

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Just been looking at my copy of Keith Parkin's excellent book "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" and the front cover colour photo is of FO no. 3107 in 'InterCity Executive' livery in 1988, with the later one word italic capitals branding at the left-hand end, viz. 'INTERCITY'. There is also a close up in black and white of the same vehicle inside the book, but the most unusual vehicle pictured, is a converted BSK branded 'Inter-City Exhibition Van' - presumably part of one of the sets kept at Salisbury for many years in the 'seventies and early 'eighties for travelling exhibition charters. Other than these few exceptions - and the aforementioned sleeper and Motorail stock, I think you are probably right.
Many thanks for confirming this, I actually own that same publication but it’s minus its paper jacket so would have been non the wiser even if I’d consulted it!
 

busesrusuk

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I remember a comment about the Inter-City Overground map appearing in Modern Railways in the late 1970s, possibly from Alan Williams, raising an eyebrow that the map included Brighton, Portsmouth and Dover as part of the Inter-City network.

The point was made that, by this time, the majority of Inter-City services north & west of London were operated by Mk2 a/c and Mk3 stock, whereas the Southern Region's "Inter City" routes had slam-door EMUs, which to a casual punter appeared no different to bog standard outer suburban trains of that era. On the SR, InterCity branding certainly didn't appear on the side of coaches, nor was it mentioned in any local publicity.
Maybe Inter-City on the SR just meant there was a chance you might find a buffet car on your train?


There was a corresponding Overground by night poster produced to promote Inter-City Sleepers.
Some interesting long-gone overnight destinations are shown: Barrow-in-Furness, Stranraer, Hartlepool, Paris and the good old Bristol - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

medium_DS170577.jpg

Source: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...city-sleepers-overground-by-night-1974-poster
Copyright: The Board of Trustees of The Science Museum, London.
Reproduced under Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)
Was there a particular reason why Barrow in Furness had a sleeper service? i get most of the others (was Milford Haven a gateway to Ireland?) but Barrow puzzles me...
 

WesternLancer

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Was there a particular reason why Barrow in Furness had a sleeper service? i get most of the others (was Milford Haven a gateway to Ireland?) but Barrow puzzles me...
Presumably quite an important industrial centre then, along with, then, as now, key military shipbuilding building industry which would have meant regular flow of navy and MoD visitors needing to get there, and people from there needing to get to London to meet them for a days work. Plus also onward travel to Sellafield (probably seen as a notable part of the UK's 'military industrial complex' at the time - maybe?)
 

busesrusuk

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Presumably quite an important industrial centre then, along with, then, as now, key military shipbuilding building industry which would have meant regular flow of navy and MoD visitors needing to get there, and people from there needing to get to London to meet them for a days work.
Fair point...
 

Ridercross

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Was there a particular reason why Barrow in Furness had a sleeper service? i get most of the others (was Milford Haven a gateway to Ireland?) but Barrow puzzles me...
No, Milford Haven has never been a ferry terminal to Ireland. Apart from possibly for some operational reason that may have caused the Sleeper to terminate there, the only reason I can think is because of the couple of oil refineries that were in operation around the town back in the 70's which may have produced business visitors from London?
 

busesrusuk

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No, Milford Haven has never been a ferry terminal to Ireland. Apart from possibly for some operational reason that may have caused the Sleeper to terminate there, the only reason I can think is because of the couple of oil refineries that were in operation around the town back in the 70's which may have produced business visitors from London?
Interesting. If, as mentioned, that there were significant business interests in both Milford Haven and Barrow there must have been a significant amount of patronage to have justified a regular sleeper service. Does anyone know if the sleepers to these two towns ran every night or only certain nights of the week.

Were they worked as a portion of another service - one or two carriages detached somewhere on route or was it a dedicated train? Based on the comments about business use then presumably it was a Mon-Fri operation?
 

Cheshire Scot

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Presumably quite an important industrial centre then, along with, then, as now, key military shipbuilding building industry which would have meant regular flow of navy and MoD visitors needing to get there, and people from there needing to get to London to meet them for a days work. Plus also onward travel to Sellafield (probably seen as a notable part of the UK's 'military industrial complex' at the time - maybe?)



Were they worked as a portion of another service - one or two carriages detached somewhere on route or was it a dedicated train? Based on the comments about business use then presumably it was a Mon-Fri operation?
The Barrow sleeper also conveyed a sleeping car to/from Preston - when I used it (1980) there were 2 sleepers plus seated coaches (and vans) for Barrow and one sleeper for Preston. The latter avoided having to leave your berth at 04.xx, although less critical southbound when it was around 22.30.

Was Milford Haven perhaps a convenient point to terminate a sleeper Carmarthen. Milford Haven is the largest town in Pembrokeshire (plus as mentioned the oil refineriess may have been a factor) and the train would also serve the county town of Haverford West.

I am pretty sure both the Barrow and MH trains would have run ran at least six nights per week - I will check in the morning if not by then updated. MH may have been a portion off the Swansea sleeper, or dropped some sleeping cars there, I am not sure.

EDIT after a nights sleep: From the 1974 TT
The Euston Barrow ran seven night a week but on Saturday nights southbound and Sunday nights northbound it was seats only from/to Barrow although the Preston Sleeping car still ran.
Paddington to Milford Haven also ran seven nights, as did the separate Paddington Swansea. The Milford Haven was 'Sleeping Cars only' - presumably quite a few vans conveying newspapers and mail to South and South West Wales plus one or two sleeping cars. On Saturday night however there were no sleeping cars to either Swansea or Milford Haven, but the seated MH train conveyed sleepers to Carmarthen.

The return direction was more complex, again the MH ran every night but with seated accommodation each night but no sleepers on the Saturday night. There was also a Carmarthen to Paddington 'Sleeping Cars only' - seven nights - which picked up at Swansea but berths were not available there until the train from Carmarthen had arrived.


I think it only existed for a few years in that form (it was the remnant of the former London-Glasgow via MML sleeper - in fact, I think the seated coaches came from St Pancras and the sleepers were added at Nottingham). I can half-recall hearing 1977 or 1978 for the date of withdrawal. It's in the March 1973 Cook's but not in the May 1979 one.
This previously ran with sleepers to St Pancras, then in the early seventies to Euston via Leicester Market Harborough and Northampton before being cut back to Nottingham although as noted the down train still ran from St Pancras with the sleepers attaching at Nottingham, Although in the mid 70s it conveyed two sleeping cars there always seemed to be only one - less than full - car actually in use.

FURTHER EDIT:
The sleeper map posted previously does not tell the full story. Just as Plymouth had it's own portion detached from the Penzance, and Preston off the Barrow, Carlisle had two sleeping cars detached from one of the then three Euston to Glasgow sleeper trains. The up working was attached rear with class 08 haulage. There may have been other similar arrangements, possibly Darlington although I am not sure on that one.

The map shows Glasgow Edinburgh to Bristol, this was an early seventies extension of the historic Scotland to Birmingham service and was later extended to Plymouth and acquired a portion for Poole.

In the early sixties there were also sleepers between Newcastle and Bristol, and from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Manchester/Liverpool, also from Manchester to Plymouth
 
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ainsworth74

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There may have been other similar arrangements, possibly Darlington although I am not sure on that one.

Yes at Darlington I believe a first class sleeper carriage would be detached (and presumably shunted into a bay) off of the Newcastle sleeper as there is perennially a footnote advising that first class sleeper passengers can remain in their berths until 0800 despite the train having called at 04xx or similar.
 

Helvellyn

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I am really not sure how serious any suggestion to de-electrify North of Preston was let alone single tracking.

The Serpell Report of the early 1980s recommended closing the Newcastle to Edinburgh route so within less than a decade such a massive downgrade of the WCML seems odd.

As well as the Euston-Glasgow services you still had AC hauled CrossCountry services mixed in with the HSTs on the 'Scot' named services. Sleepers were AC hauled. Mail was AC hauled. Freightliners were AC hauled - often double headed by 86s.

The closure of Ravenscraig saw a lot of the AC hauled metals traffic disappear but that had been there in the 1970s and 1980s after electrification. Even the Hardendale limestone traffic was AC hauled until the Metals sub-sector ceased sponsoring AC traffic.

Where would BR get all the extra diesel locos to handle these services North of Preston?
 

WesternLancer

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The Barrow sleeper also conveyed a sleeping car to/from Preston - when I used it (1980) there were 2 sleepers plus seated coaches (and vans) for Barrow and one sleeper for Preston. The latter avoided having to leave your berth at 04.xx, although less critical southbound when it was around 22.30.

Was Milford Haven perhaps a convenient point to terminate a sleeper Carmarthen. Milford Haven is the largest town in Pembrokeshire (plus as mentioned the oil refineriess may have been a factor) and the train would also serve the county town of Haverford West.

I am pretty sure both the Barrow and MH trains would have run ran at least six nights per week - I will check in the morning if not by then updated. MH may have been a portion off the Swansea sleeper, or dropped some sleeping cars there, I am not sure.

EDIT after a nights sleep: From the 1974 TT
The Euston Barrow ran seven night a week but on Saturday nights southbound and Sunday nights northbound it was seats only from/to Barrow although the Preston Sleeping car still ran.
Paddington to Milford Haven also ran seven nights, as did the separate Paddington Swansea. The Milford Haven was 'Sleeping Cars only' - presumably quite a few vans conveying newspapers and mail to South and South West Wales plus one or two sleeping cars. On Saturday night however there were no sleeping cars to either Swansea or Milford Haven, but the seated MH train conveyed sleepers to Carmarthen.

The return direction was more complex, again the MH ran every night but with seated accommodation each night but no sleepers on the Saturday night. There was also a Carmarthen to Paddington 'Sleeping Cars only' - seven nights - which picked up at Swansea but berths were not available there until the train from Carmarthen had arrived.



This previously ran with sleepers to St Pancras, then in the early seventies to Euston via Leicester Market Harborough and Northampton before being cut back to Nottingham although as noted the down train still ran from St Pancras with the sleepers attaching at Nottingham, Although in the mid 70s it conveyed two sleeping cars there always seemed to be only one - less than full - car actually in use.

FURTHER EDIT:
The sleeper map posted previously does not tell the full story. Just as Plymouth had it's own portion detached from the Penzance, and Preston off the Barrow, Carlisle had two sleeping cars detached from one of the then three Euston to Glasgow sleeper trains. The up working was attached rear with class 08 haulage. There may have been other similar arrangements, possibly Darlington although I am not sure on that one.

The map shows Glasgow Edinburgh to Bristol, this was an early seventies extension of the historic Scotland to Birmingham service and was later extended to Plymouth and acquired a portion for Poole.

In the early sixties there were also sleepers between Newcastle and Bristol, and from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Manchester/Liverpool, also from Manchester to Plymouth
Thanks for all this added info!
 

Cheshire Scot

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Thanks for all this added info!
No problem.

Euston to Oban can be added to the list from the early sixties. Detached at Stirling off the Euston to Perth which itself ran at least into the 1980s, whilst the Inverness, although calling at Perth and sometimes Stirling, was mainly targeted at points north of Perth.
 

RT4038

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No problem.

Euston to Oban can be added to the list from the early sixties. Detached at Stirling off the Euston to Perth which itself ran at least into the 1980s, whilst the Inverness, although calling at Perth and sometimes Stirling, was mainly targeted at points north of Perth.
The Barrow cars went to Workington at one time too.
 

ChiefPlanner

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No, Milford Haven has never been a ferry terminal to Ireland. Apart from possibly for some operational reason that may have caused the Sleeper to terminate there, the only reason I can think is because of the couple of oil refineries that were in operation around the town back in the 70's which may have produced business visitors from London?

The reason for Milford Haven was MOD business traffic (which clearly disappeared over the years) - but the service did provide useful connections from West Wales , in the pre road upgrade era. I never used the sleeper myself (from Swansea) , but berth occupation as observed from the loading list pasted onto one of the door droplights appeared reasonable in the late 1970's. Clearly not enough to maintain the service.

In passing , a lot of sleeper business was based around the one time MOD business - especially on the outliers.
 

Cheshire Scot

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In passing , a lot of sleeper business was based around the one time MOD business - especially on the outliers.
Yes, Helensburgh Upper and Garelochhead for Faslane - a lot of the personnel lived in Helelnsburgh and probably still do and continue to provide business, Inverkeithing for Rosyth, Leuchars for, well, Leuchars to name but a few, although the sleepers were there before the MOD but MOD would then help keep it going.
 

KeithMcC

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Barrow in Furness (and the rest of the Cumbrian Coast) are awkward places to get to for business (I have needed to!) as the access is slow and they are a long way from any airport, so I can see that a sleeper would do reasonable business. There was (and possibly still is) a private BAE flight from Farnborough to Barrow every day to move people to and from meetings without them spending most of the day travelling.
 

Gloster

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If I remember correctly the Milford Haven sleepers used to run via Bristol and left in the early hours (01.24?) The train was a somewhat mixed formation with sleepers, a lot of bogie vans and, I think, a few seated coaches that only went to Carmarthen. (Or did they come on at Carmarthen?)

EDIT: After a bit of rooting around I find that it is quite possible that the sleeper was not attached until later on, possibly at Cardiff or Swansea. Memory does play tricks.
 
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D6130

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Barrow in Furness (and the rest of the Cumbrian Coast) are awkward places to get to for business (I have needed to!) as the access is slow and they are a long way from any airport, so I can see that a sleeper would do reasonable business. There was (and possibly still is) a private BAE flight from Farnborough to Barrow every day to move people to and from meetings without them spending most of the day travelling.
If Barrow-in-Furness is a long way from any airport, where does the private BAE flight from Farnborough land and take off?.....or is it diagrammed for a helicopter?
 

Ianno87

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If Barrow-in-Furness is a long way from any airport, where does the private BAE flight from Farnborough land and take off?.....or is it diagrammed for a helicopter?

Walney Island.
 
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