Bradford and the HS network

[30907]

Now that Northern Powerhouse Rail has mutated into Marsden Poorhouse Rail (I know that's unfair), how does Bradford benefit from the HS network?
The city (centre) gains a direct electrified route to Leeds, with a small but significant time saving. Travel towards London will be no better or worse than for anywhere else in West Yorkshire. It is the Manchester direction where the abandonment of the original NPR routing (and yes, I know it was optimistic to hope for it) will be most noticeable.

So how do things stand?
1. Interchange to Piccadilly via Leeds and "HS3" will eventually take 55min - which is the same as the better diesel time to Victoria now.

2. Interchange to Huddersfield via Halifax is slow and indirect, and I can't see a massive speed-up being possible, so it is unlikely to be quicker than (1).
(2a. It would theoretically be possible to build/rebuild a more direct route (about 3 miles shorter) via Bailiff Bridge, but that misses Brighouse as well as Halifax. Or (more expensive!) to follow the Spen Valley from Low Moor to Cleckheaton and then tunnel towards Heaton Lodge Jn. I can't see the remotest chance of either of these.)

3. This leaves the existing Calder Valley route. Electrify it (see numerous comments in the "why Leeds to Bradford?" thread), and introduce a half-hourly service via Castlefield to Piccadilly (and beyond); even with the present stopping pattern it should be possible to do the journey in 50min to Victoria and 60min to Piccadilly.

Obviously this means a recast of the Calder Valley services, but that will happen anyway.

A modest proposal - any better ideas?

 

[matacaster]

1. In respect of interchange to Leeds / NPR, is the plan for an HS2 train to set off from interchange and then reverse at Leeds onto NPR /TRU, or is one expected to take a northern local to Leeds? If the former, will the new train sets actually get round the horrible left hand curve in a deep cutting just outside interchange? Also are the platforms at interchange long enough

2. The line via Halifax is tortuously slow once past Halifax, it's on a fairly steep downhill stretch which ends with what will be a 4-track mainline which I suspect it might have to cross at least some of the tracks if not all. Bailiff bridge from memory is missing quite a few arches and quite tall and substantial supporting columns - expensive I think!!
I may be wrong, but I thought the connection at Heaton lodge junction was on embankment / bridges rather than tunnel.
3. That option just needs money to electrify and suitable paths for painful bit from Victoria to Piccadilly.

 

[30907]

1. In respect of interchange to Leeds / NPR, is the plan for an HS2 train to set off from interchange and then reverse at Leeds onto NPR /TRU, or is one expected to take a northern local to Leeds? If the former, will the new train sets actually get round the horrible left hand curve in a deep cutting just outside interchange? Also are the platforms at interchange long enough

I was allowing the sratutory 10min for the connection - I very much doubt there will be thriugh trains

2. Bailiff bridge from memory is missing quite a few arches and quite tall and substantial supporting columns - expensive I think!!
I may be wrong, but I thought the connection at Heaton lodge junction was on embankment / bridges rather than tunnel.

It is. I was talking about a new-build tunnel from Cleckheaton.
As I say, no chance of either being built.

3. That option just needs money to electrify and suitable paths for painful bit from Victoria to Piccadilly.

Quite. Peanuts, really

 

[JKF]

If Leeds continues to get its London service mostly via ECML, and with proposed capacity upgrades east of Leeds, there’s always the option of direct trains from Interchange to London via Hambleton, missing out the reversal at Leeds for a small bit of time saving. In fact if the long stated aim of 3tph Leeds-London ever arrives, perhaps one an hour could originate from Bradford, Harrogate or even Skipton, go out this way and have minimal stops after Leeds so to become the faster train of the three, giving a good ‘headline’ time for the origin stations and better marketing potential.

When I was doing Leeds-London quite frequently a few years back there seemed to be a fast and a semi fast each hour, the quick one about 2hr11 doing wakey, donny and Peterborough only, the slower train adding Grantham, Retford, Newark and/or Stevenage and taking about 2hr35. No idea if this is the same pattern, but I could see some sense in the faster train being the one starting elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

Through London-Bradford trains every hour or even more would be some consolation for not being on a direct NPR route, although as somebody posted above NPR addresses a different problem (Manchester). But I'd have thought they would mention it in the IRP if it was under consideration.

 

[Ken H]

Sorry guys, I am really struggling to see the potential for big growth in rail use from Bradford.
For starters a large part of the north of the district are towns with good electric services to Leeds. Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Ilkley. Quite a large part of the old city of Bradford is nearer to Shipley.
And a large part of East Bradford I think people would bus/taxi/drive to Leeds rather than make the detour to Intrrchange.
And also Bradford has a large demographic that does not travel but largely stays close to home.
Maybe I am biased cos I was dragged up in Leeds!

 

[matacaster]

Sorry guys, I am really struggling to see the potential for big growth in rail use from Bradford.
For starters a large part of the north of the district are towns with good electric services to Leeds. Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Ilkley. Quite a large part of the old city of Bradford is nearer to Shipley.
And a large part of East Bradford I think people would bus/taxi/drive to Leeds rather than make the detour to Intrrchange.
And also Bradford has a large demographic that does not travel but largely stays close to home.
Maybe I am biased cos I was dragged up in Leeds!

North Bradford is the wealthiest bit (Ilkley etc), but it's quicker to get existing electric train to Leeds. I suspect most rail traffic is that originating in Bradford to go to Leeds or Manchester as that is where better jobs are (I could be wrong), Bradford lacks a significant magnet industry (Leeds and manchester have financial services and a good retail offering) and has a below average workforce.

 

[Halifaxlad]

(2a. It would theoretically be possible to build/rebuild a more direct route (about 3 miles shorter) via Bailiff Bridge, but that misses Brighouse as well as Halifax. Or (more expensive!) to follow the Spen Valley from Low Moor to Cleckheaton and then tunnel towards Heaton Lodge Jn. I can't see the remotest chance of either of these.)

By comparison building a new line via Bailiff Bridge is far far more likely than reinstating the line through Cleckheaton!

Bailiff bridge from memory is missing quite a few arches and quite tall and substantial supporting columns - expensive I think!!

I think the viaduct was built to avoid building on land that is now a golf course!

Today you would want to avoid using/rebuilding the viaduct anyway as the curve towards Bradford was particularly sharp!

A modest proposal - any better ideas?

Don't forget about the Greengauge proposal of a new high speed line somewhere between Halifax & Rochdale, that could then go on to serve Bradford!

Personally I think its going to be hard justifying a terminating service to Bradford so I would...

1) Cross Bradford (above ground)

2) Reinstate line to Otley and build a new line Eastwards to Weeton.

3) Rebuild the Ripon line (some new alignment)

to enable through long distance services!