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Bradford Stations Consultation / Improvements

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Bantamzen

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Given that 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' (I hate that name, so focus groupy as to be idiotic) is proposed to route between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, anyone got any ideas how that will effect the current station map?

That's a good question, but until a proposed alignment of the Manchester - Bradford & Bradford Leeds sections is offered, its a bit of a mystery. I know there was some talk / speculation in the local media about a tunnelled solution, but quite how and where it could be done is not clear. Being at the bottom of a deep-sided bowl on three sides the area is very prone to flooding, although with the beck underneath the city centre well contained and there being a diversionary flood tunnel from the west of the city through to the Canal Road corridor its not as bad as it used to be. But still it would be a serious & costly challenge to get any kind through alignment, so I can't help thinking that the Interchange may be retained as a turn-back, possibly with some reworking.
 
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deltic08

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If you walk from the Interchange, turning right onto Hall Ings and past St Georges Hall & the old T&A building you can see the remnants of the front of the station still in situ:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7934688,-1.7496192,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHbuIXRYblPAqtrs1TJ71Qw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7...uIXRYblPAqtrs1TJ71Qw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I can remember seeing this stone retaining wall for Exchange when I was last in Bradford. From here to FS was only three or four hundred yards IIRC. That would have been more acceptable than today's hike between both stations. Probably less than the bridge between Gloucester Central and Eastgate stations.
 

mwmbwls

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Given that 'Northern Powerhouse Rail' (I hate that name, so focus groupy as to be idiotic) is proposed to route between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, anyone got any ideas how that will effect the current station map?

Bradford Exchange with its steep gradients on both the route via New Pudsey and Low Moor was bypassed by freight trains who used a chord from Bowling just north of Low Moor to Laisterdyke on what is now the New Pudsey line. It was last used as a through route back in 1969 Previously it had carried passenger trains, too - Bradford portions of services such as Leeds-Blackpool holiday specials were attached/detached at Low Moor, the main train running between Leeds & Halifax without a reverse.

BR lifted the track from the route in March 1987, Shortly after the rails were lifted, part of Ripleyville viaduct collapsed necessitating the demolition of the whole structure. The trackbed was declared surplus by BR in 1989 and Bradford City Council entered into discussions to purchase the route for redevelopment. However BR withdrew the route from the market in 1991, the Telegraph and Argus reporting on September 16th that year that BR were looking into the possibility of reopening the line. BR had stated that there were no firm plans but the route could be of strategic importance.

Then in July 1992, Transport 2000 proposed reopening the line for a new Leeds- Manchester express service which would call at a Bradford Parkway station, to be built on the site where Bowling station once stood. The York Leeds Preston Blackpool service could also use the route.

These 1992 plans came to nothing, but in 1995 Bradford Council announced that the route had been safeguarded from development for possible future reopening, a position re-affirmed in 2005. Despite this part of the route near the junction at Bowling has had a car park for an adjacent factory built on it, whilst in late- 2010 an area of track bed adjacent to Hall Lane level crossing was developed as a yard for a car repair business.

And now proposals for a new Bradford Parkway station have emerged on local and national fora linking the long dormant alignment to NPR. From Google Maps it looks as though the alignment remains relatively unimpeded. It is about a mile down Wakefield Road from the city centre which come become a development corridor. It will stand or fall, dependent on its surface access but as I only visit Bradford by train I am not in a position to comment further.
 

MarkyT

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Now proposals for a new Bradford Parkway station have emerged on local and national fora linking the long dormant alignment to NPR. From Google Maps it looks as though the alignment remains relatively unimpeded. It is about a mile down Wakefield Road from the city centre which come become a development corridor. It will stand or fall, dependent on its surface access but as I only visit Bradford by train I am not in a position to comment further.

I'm not sure there needs to be an additional station for Bradford on NPR to take advantage of such a reinstated chord. Some trains could bypass the city entirely to get the best headline Manchester-Leeds times, while others could turn off and serve Interchange station. See attached for a possible high(ish) speed alignment through the area incorporating the chord. The new Low Moor station (suitably embellished) could form a parkway facility for the area for some trains too.bradford.jpg
 

billio

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I'm not sure there needs to be an additional station for Bradford on NPR to take advantage of such a reinstated chord. Some trains could bypass the city entirely to get the best headline Manchester-Leeds times, while others could turn off and serve Interchange station. See attached for a possible high(ish) speed alignment through the area incorporating the chord. The new Low Moor station (suitably embellished) could form a parkway facility for the area for some trains too.View attachment 40628
A new station at Laisterdyke is perhaps a better location, especially if the line down to Interchange could be used by trams which went beyond Interchange to Forster Square and other parts of the city. A tram line could also extend beyond Laisterdyke on the old formation towards Wakefield.
 

Tetchytyke

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Bradford needs a station in the city centre, not at an industrial estate on the outskirts next to a failed transport museum.

Fast Manchester-Leeds trains already have their own main line. What we need is a faster train from *Bradford*- not Low Moor, not Laisterdyke, not Halifax- to Manchester, Manchester Airport and Liverpool.
 

HowardGWR

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^^^I see you feel strongly, but where are your origin /destination data to back up your view. Does central Bradford have a strong office and financial district like Leeds, for instance?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Forget finance - "normal" passengers want the railway station to be next to the bus station and near shops, cinemas, restaurants, theatres and pubs.

Businessmen don't use trains to Bradford because hardly any of them have first class.

The proposed Bradford avoiding line is a silly idea. There is already an avoiding line via Brighouse and the Calder Valley.
 

Bantamzen

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I'm not sure there needs to be an additional station for Bradford on NPR to take advantage of such a reinstated chord. Some trains could bypass the city entirely to get the best headline Manchester-Leeds times, while others could turn off and serve Interchange station. See attached for a possible high(ish) speed alignment through the area incorporating the chord. The new Low Moor station (suitably embellished) could form a parkway facility for the area for some trains too.View attachment 40628

Whilst the chord itself is still largely undeveloped, it still has a considerable climb up towards Laisterdyke and even with some of the line straightening you suggest the route to Leeds still passes through quite a densely populated area with an already large number of services operating across the existing alignment. I'm not really sure that there would be much improvement in times routing this way with a Bradford Parkway compared to using the existing North TP route.

^^^I see you feel strongly, but where are your origin /destination data to back up your view. Does central Bradford have a strong office and financial district like Leeds, for instance?

Forget finance - "normal" passengers want the railway station to be next to the bus station and near shops, cinemas, restaurants, theatres and pubs.

Businessmen don't use trains to Bradford because hardly any of them have first class.

The proposed Bradford avoiding line is a silly idea. There is already an avoiding line via Brighouse and the Calder Valley.

Old Yard Dog has touched on the issue, and I will expand a bit. Whilst Bradford is never going to compete with Leeds in terms of retail & finance, the current vision for the city is one focused more around leisure and tourism so having a central station will be key to developing these. Lots of new projects in the city are centred around the leisure industry, with a view to getting people into the city from surrounding areas for this. Plus a lot of people do commute to Leeds, the vast majority of these would not benefit from a parkway lodged way out in Low Moor or Laisterdyke but would if a faster & higher capacity service became available via a central station. Furthermore, and largely ignored by many are the North <> South traffic flows through Bradford, which often bring the road network to a virtual standstill. With better connectivity between the two via a central station, at least some might be tempted out of their cars and onto any new capacity thrown up.

Of course all of the hinges on there being a central station in the first place, an idea that sadly passed councils and governments by for the best part of a decade. Whilst there was a ruddy great hole in the city centre, there was as close to a straight alignment between the Calder & Aire/Wharfe lines as you could wish for, albeit with a gradient issue. For a number of years a group of businessmen in the city lobbied both local and central governments hard to float the idea of a link between the two stations, with an eventual view to creating a single central station in the vicinity of what is now The Broadway. They even engaged with the then owners Westfield to look for a joint venture of station & shopping centre, perhaps with a larger footprint so as not to lose retail & parking space. I believe that they got so far as to come up with an initial estimate of something like £700M, which for what it is sounds a lot but in the wider context of a new Manchester-Bradford-Leeds alignment might actually have represented good value, particularly as a considerable amount would have come from the site owners (in the end Meyer Bergman raised £240M to build what is now The Broadway, with subsequent further investments for additional facilities along Broadway itself).

But as we know nobody was prepared at the time to commit to pushing a business case and seeing if the money could actually be raised. As with a lot of public projects in the UK, there was lots of procrastination about who was going to pay for it (without as mentioned actually floating the idea), what value it would bring, who would use it and why did Bradford need it anyway? Yet as we now see, it would have provided an ideal opportunity to realise TfN's idea with the alignment passing through Bradford, Shipley (with a possible chord bypassing the station for some services), and along the Aire line where it would have been possible to 4 track as neither Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge had yet been built. So by the time the idea actually comes into the view, the opportunity has long since been lost. Once again an idea is lost as the UK shuffles uneasily towards the solutions, and by the time it reluctantly agrees to it when the ideal opportunity has again been lost.
 

B&I

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Whilst the chord itself is still largely undeveloped, it still has a considerable climb up towards Laisterdyke and even with some of the line straightening you suggest the route to Leeds still passes through quite a densely populated area with an already large number of services operating across the existing alignment. I'm not really sure that there would be much improvement in times routing this way with a Bradford Parkway compared to using the existing North TP route.





Old Yard Dog has touched on the issue, and I will expand a bit. Whilst Bradford is never going to compete with Leeds in terms of retail & finance, the current vision for the city is one focused more around leisure and tourism so having a central station will be key to developing these. Lots of new projects in the city are centred around the leisure industry, with a view to getting people into the city from surrounding areas for this. Plus a lot of people do commute to Leeds, the vast majority of these would not benefit from a parkway lodged way out in Low Moor or Laisterdyke but would if a faster & higher capacity service became available via a central station. Furthermore, and largely ignored by many are the North <> South traffic flows through Bradford, which often bring the road network to a virtual standstill. With better connectivity between the two via a central station, at least some might be tempted out of their cars and onto any new capacity thrown up.

Of course all of the hinges on there being a central station in the first place, an idea that sadly passed councils and governments by for the best part of a decade. Whilst there was a ruddy great hole in the city centre, there was as close to a straight alignment between the Calder & Aire/Wharfe lines as you could wish for, albeit with a gradient issue. For a number of years a group of businessmen in the city lobbied both local and central governments hard to float the idea of a link between the two stations, with an eventual view to creating a single central station in the vicinity of what is now The Broadway. They even engaged with the then owners Westfield to look for a joint venture of station & shopping centre, perhaps with a larger footprint so as not to lose retail & parking space. I believe that they got so far as to come up with an initial estimate of something like £700M, which for what it is sounds a lot but in the wider context of a new Manchester-Bradford-Leeds alignment might actually have represented good value, particularly as a considerable amount would have come from the site owners (in the end Meyer Bergman raised £240M to build what is now The Broadway, with subsequent further investments for additional facilities along Broadway itself).

But as we know nobody was prepared at the time to commit to pushing a business case and seeing if the money could actually be raised. As with a lot of public projects in the UK, there was lots of procrastination about who was going to pay for it (without as mentioned actually floating the idea), what value it would bring, who would use it and why did Bradford need it anyway? Yet as we now see, it would have provided an ideal opportunity to realise TfN's idea with the alignment passing through Bradford, Shipley (with a possible chord bypassing the station for some services), and along the Aire line where it would have been possible to 4 track as neither Apperley Bridge or Kirkstall Forge had yet been built. So by the time the idea actually comes into the view, the opportunity has long since been lost. Once again an idea is lost as the UK shuffles uneasily towards the solutions, and by the time it reluctantly agrees to it when the ideal opportunity has again been lost.


The really irritating thing is that this is the second time this has happened in as many generations. When the area around Forster Square was flattened in the 60s, that too would have beem an ideal.opportunity to build a through line.

I only know Bradford as a fairly frequent visitor, but its position seems similar in many ways to a city I know better, Liverpool. Widely underestimated in its size. Perceived as having lost its economic purpose, and linked to an area of wider economic decline. Overshadowed by a close-by rival city, and being steered away from large-scale commercial development as a result. Has a population which much of the country is ill-disposed towards, for nongood reason. Perceived to be an effective transport dead-end for geographical reasons. Systematically neglected by central government infrastructure spending. Cursed with an incompetent and unimaginative local council, which is frequently lukewarm about public transport. And, hopefully, now receiving belated recognition of its importance in transport terms.
 

Bantamzen

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The really irritating thing is that this is the second time this has happened in as many generations. When the area around Forster Square was flattened in the 60s, that too would have beem an ideal.opportunity to build a through line.

I only know Bradford as a fairly frequent visitor, but its position seems similar in many ways to a city I know better, Liverpool. Widely underestimated in its size. Perceived as having lost its economic purpose, and linked to an area of wider economic decline. Overshadowed by a close-by rival city, and being steered away from large-scale commercial development as a result. Has a population which much of the country is ill-disposed towards, for nongood reason. Perceived to be an effective transport dead-end for geographical reasons. Systematically neglected by central government infrastructure spending. Cursed with an incompetent and unimaginative local council, which is frequently lukewarm about public transport. And, hopefully, now receiving belated recognition of its importance in transport terms.

Being actually born in Liverpool (only moving to Bradford in 1976 as a six year old) and still having family there, I can relate to the problems Liverpool has had. For years as you say it was understated, undervalued & certainly underinvested in yet when finally some real investment was thrown at it in the likes of Liverpool One & the Albert Dock it showed just what potential the city had, not just for the locals but for a much larger audience. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything on the scale of the Liverpool redevelopment but Bradford has the potential, and the heritage to become somewhere where people go to enjoy themselves at the theatre (The Alhambra is still a very key theatre on the major circuit), go to see bands (with the proposed Odeon redevelopment & St George's Hall, plus lots of smaller venues), as well as being a gateway to the Yorkshire Dales (something I have long banged on about to the leader of the council, whom I know through my wife's family!). As I say it can't compete retail-wise with Leeds, and it seems that even the Inland Revenue jobs will be relocated 9 miles to the east (one can't help but wonder if this would have been the case had a crossrail been built when the chance was there), but there is rejuvenation taking place and the last thing the city needs is to be stuck out on a parkway limb.
 

superkev

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When the Inland revenue relocate to much more expensive offices in Leeds could I suggest (tongue in cheek) the arched roof building city side of Forster Sq station becomes a train shed :)
K
 

HSTEd

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Getting a city centre station without killing the end to end journey times that are the route's raison d'etre is going to be rather difficult and expensive though.
 

Bantamzen

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When the Inland revenue relocate to much more expensive offices in Leeds could I suggest (tongue in cheek) the arched roof building city side of Forster Sq station becomes a train shed :)
K

I wonder how easy it would be to convert the ground and first floors....?? ;)

Seriously though if HMRC, and it is still and if, do move I'd say that building would be an ideal spot for a new hotel, perhaps one of those chains operating further away from the city, with perhaps the ground and first floors repurposed into cafes / bars / restaurants? It would certainly help increase the footfall in the area.

Getting a city centre station without killing the end to end journey times that are the route's raison d'etre is going to be rather difficult and expensive though.

It always was, but the indecision has made it even more so, which is why in all honesty I don't see it happening at all.
 

B&I

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Being actually born in Liverpool (only moving to Bradford in 1976 as a six year old) and still having family there, I can relate to the problems Liverpool has had. For years as you say it was understated, undervalued & certainly underinvested in yet when finally some real investment was thrown at it in the likes of Liverpool One & the Albert Dock it showed just what potential the city had, not just for the locals but for a much larger audience. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything on the scale of the Liverpool redevelopment but Bradford has the potential, and the heritage to become somewhere where people go to enjoy themselves at the theatre (The Alhambra is still a very key theatre on the major circuit), go to see bands (with the proposed Odeon redevelopment & St George's Hall, plus lots of smaller venues), as well as being a gateway to the Yorkshire Dales (something I have long banged on about to the leader of the council, whom I know through my wife's family!). As I say it can't compete retail-wise with Leeds, and it seems that even the Inland Revenue jobs will be relocated 9 miles to the east (one can't help but wonder if this would have been the case had a crossrail been built when the chance was there), but there is rejuvenation taking place and the last thing the city needs is to be stuck out on a parkway limb.


You remind me of another similarity - wonderful, grand but under-appreciated architecture
 

Eric

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The proposed glass lifts at Forster Square look.

Better than the current grotty and dilapidated grey tower.
 

Eric

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The newly proposed HS2 underground station is supposed to be built between Broadway and Little Germany and then rejoin the line to Leeds at the top of Leeds Road.

I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime
 

snowball

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The newly proposed HS2 underground station is supposed to be built between Broadway and Little Germany and then rejoin the line to Leeds at the top of Leeds Road.

I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime

Do you have a source for this information?

I assume you mean NPR (formerly known as HS3), not HS2. HS2 doesn't touch Bradford.

Until now there has only been speculation about how NPR will serve Bradford. If you have info that an underground station is proposed, that's new.
 

Eric

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The original site wouldn't be any better for access to the city centre, though it might be better for integration with buses. This would come at the expense of a pair of slow reverse curves to join the fairly straight alignment through Frizinghall.

I agree that the pedestrian access to and from Forster Square isn't the most welcoming, though this is one of the issues this consultation seeks to address. The proposals outlined sound ambitious, though I'm not sure they would do much towards the bigger problems of Bradford and its dependency on road transport.


At least one of the platforms is barely used at present, can't remember if it's just the one used by Grand Central, or if one of the shorter pair is also under-used. I doubt more are or will be needed for the foreseeable future, though the shorter pair could do with extending if more 6-car working is coming. Can't recall if that's proposed under any current schemes though.

Platform Two at the Interchange is designated the Grand Central platform.
 

Eric

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Do you have a source for this information?

I assume you mean NPR (formerly known as HS3), not HS2. HS2 doesn't touch Bradford.

Until now there has only been specultion about how NPR will serve Bradford.

Apologies, NPR.

It's was discussed at a council meeting at the Midland Hotel last week.

The council want the new station as close as possible to Broadway/Little Germany business development district.

I've said for years that the council should have designated Little Germany as the cities main business hub.

How they plan to tunnel down under the Interchange and up Leeds Road will be interesting.

Someone did suggest at the meeting that if you're tunnelling under then why not link the Interchange and Forster Square at the same time?
 

superkev

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I wonder how easy it would be to convert the ground and first floors....?? ;)

Seriously though if HMRC, and it is still and if, do move I'd say that building would be an ideal spot for a new hotel, perhaps one of those chains operating further away from the city, with perhaps the ground and first floors repurposed into cafes / bars / restaurants? It would certainly help increase the foorfall
Hmm just take the intermediate floor out.
There's already a super hotel (the Midland) which is very atmospheric and retains its passage to the former foster sq platforms. Laurel and Hardy once stayed there too.
K
 

Eric

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Hmm just take the intermediate floor out.
There's already a super hotel (the Midland) which is very atmospheric and retains its passage to the former foster sq platforms. Laurel and Hardy once stayed there too.
K

I'd love to walk through the old passage one last time.

I wonder if the old British Rail boards are still on the walls?
 

Eric

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A new station at Laisterdyke is perhaps a better location, especially if the line down to Interchange could be used by trams which went beyond Interchange to Forster Square and other parts of the city. A tram line could also extend beyond Laisterdyke on the old formation towards Wakefield.

What good would a team line be? Bradford has already been severely neglected for years.

It needs a first class rail station and services, not trams.
 

Bantamzen

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Apologies, NPR.

It's was discussed at a council meeting at the Midland Hotel last week.

The council want the new station as close as possible to Broadway/Little Germany business development district.

I've said for years that the council should have designated Little Germany as the cities main business hub.

How they plan to tunnel down under the Interchange and up Leeds Road will be interesting.

Someone did suggest at the meeting that if you're tunnelling under then why not link the Interchange and Forster Square at the same time?

That's interesting, but as you say would be a bit of a challenge requiring the tunnel to go through more than 90 degrees and up a very steep incline to meet the Pudsey bound line. And a slightly odd suggestion as someone noted, if you are going to tunnel to get a through line, then there is a perfectly obvious and much shorter solution staring you in the face just a few dozen metres to the North West of the proposed site.
 

HowardGWR

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^^^Do you mean Valley Road area? It just seems to be an out of town shopping area - only in-town.
I am a stranger, so be gentle with that suggestion.
 

Bantamzen

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^^^Do you mean Valley Road area? It just seems to be an out of town shopping area - only in-town.
I am a stranger, so be gentle with that suggestion.

Probably just beyond the retail units to the north, it's mainly light industrial / retail which could easily be relocated for any tunnel under the centre to rise up to the existing alignment heading for Shipley. And from there, and if needs be there is probably room for a Shipley passing loop to the east of station to help reduce the timings.
 

30907

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The same thought had occurred to me, and given that Forster Square to Leeds was quadruple track till the 60s, it wouldnt be too difficult (apart from the disruption to Leeds NW during the work); the disadvantage is that it's none too direct.
On the other hand, it could have a station at Shipley...
 
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Tetchytyke

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As a Bradfordian, I really don't think a central railway station should be top priority for the city. The cost would be astronomical, just as it would have been before Broadway was (finally) finished. The existing stations need a spruce up and better trains need to serve them. But a Bradford Crossrail would not bring much to the table; that Keighley-Pudsey market is not lucrative.

Spend the money on a decent bus network, instead of the run-down shambles we have now (Transdev excepted).
 
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