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Braking issue on Caledonian Sleeper causes train to "run away" at Edinburgh

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37057

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I was under the impression that slow dropping of pressure in the brake pipe would not be enough to coax distributors into making brake applications and that being how overcharge can settle back to nominal 5 bar release without brake applying?

Or just carry out the brake test after everything else has been carried out.
 
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edwin_m

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I was under the impression that slow dropping of pressure in the brake pipe would not be enough to coax distributors into making brake applications and that being how overcharge can settle back to nominal 5 bar release without brake applying?

Or just carry out the brake test after everything else has been carried out.
I'm not sure what happens in this situation where a two-pipe system has a leak in the train pipe, but I know there have been cases where gradual depressurization on a single pipe system has released all the brakes - not least the runaway in the USA of a parked oil train destroyed most of a town. This would be the situation if a train became divided - there is a limited amount of time to secure it before the brakes leak off, and that time would be less if the train pipe was deliberately vented.
 

HSTEd

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I'm not sure what happens in this situation where a two-pipe system has a leak in the train pipe, but I know there have been cases where gradual depressurization on a single pipe system has released all the brakes - not least the runaway in the USA of a parked oil train destroyed most of a town.

Pedant alert, but wasn't that the Lac Megantic accident - which was in Canada?
 

BRX

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I think that you infer rather a lot about the design and build process that none of us can actually know. Whether the design was rushed or subject to lack of planning or foresight is something that we shall never know.

However, these trains are not brand new standalone products that can be subject to entirely new standards. They have to be made to work within the current standards for things like ETS and braking, and as such there is only a certain amount of leeway the designer and customer can expect before their product starts to fall outside of the standards.

The issue with the auto-coupler is not so much the number of connections but rather the need for a fully automatic system to carry the ETS as well as any control or communication circuits. The electrical connector block that you see on the Delner couplers of MUs is not rated to carry that sort of voltage (RAIB Para 98). As such, there was always going to be a need for someone to go between the train and loco and plug these connections in. I would also question whether or not it is actually any safer to have raised the position of the jumper connectors. I know that the Southern had a particular safety concern that caused them to have their jumper connectors at windscreen height, but I would question if it's safer to have your shunter on the ground plugging stuff in or balanced on a stepboard.

It is certainly possible for locos to use fully automatic couplers. ROG have some Cl37s with various drophead auto-couplers that they use when moving EMUs around. It's not impossible that the Cally Sleeper could have taken a similar route. Clearly you would need to have some sort of electrically controlled pneumatic brake with a main air supply and an electrical brake continuity circuit, as staying with the two pipe system would still require operation of the BPICs at either end of the train in order to vent the brake pipe to secure the train and to carry out the brake continuity test.

The downside of such an arrangement is that suddenly this train becomes non-standard, which is the sort of thing that normally provokes howls of derision from the members of this forum who see interoperability as some sort of Holy Grail. At present the Cally Sleeper can be hauled by ANY loco by means of a coupler adapter, but using auto-couplers and an electrically controlled pneumatic brake means that you either have to have a compatible loco or a translator vehicle to go on each end. Given the issues discovered with the 61 way connector, it's probably a good thing they didn't take this route, as controls over how and when you go about plugging in a jumper is a good way of ensuring that two locos are not connected at the same time.

You're right that I'm inferring a lot, and I might be wrong. I don't design trains but I do design other stuff (buildings mainly) and this means that I feel I have some sense of recognising things that tend to happen as a result of a compromised design process, though.

This really is just speculation but I can imagine how this project had a starting point of: we have these class 92s available, which can already provide a high level of ETS power, and this lets us have a new set of carriages, with high power demand, without having to build dedicated new locos. And I can see how that seemed to make sense, and allowed a bid where a sleeper with all sorts of power hungry stuff like showers and so on could be offered. And it could have dellner couplers to simplify the currently complex and labour intensive train splitting/joining operations.

But then I can imagine it progressing into detailed designs and all sorts of problems coming up, maybe to do with trying to fit complex plumbing systems into the restrictive UK loading gauge, maybe realising that this high power demand led to issues with how the automatic coupling could work, maybe realising that the elderly electronics of the class 92s worked in theory but not in practice with newer systems with different demands. A series of issues that all stem from the basic concept - high power demand newbuild rolling stock and refurbished locos. And I know how these kinds of issues can have cascading effects - you implement a workaround to one problem, which causes a new problem. And so on.

And many projects have a point at which they can go two ways: either, someone decides that there are so many unforeseen problems building up as a consequence of the basic original concept, the sensible response is to go back and rethink that original concept. Or, no-one makes that call, and the project crashes on, becoming gradually more complex and expensive and ending up with a result that is full of compromises and workarounds. To me, this has various hallmarks of the latter taking place (evident design compromises, lots of stuff that doesn't work well, loads of teething problems, extensive delays), and I can also see exactly what pressures could have lead to this (political pressure not to go back on the original promise, and so on).

I might be completely wrong of course.

I do wonder, though, at what stage was the design and position of the BPIC decided? Could it have been at a stage in the design where there was still an intention for a fully automatic coupling? Could that explain why the risk of it getting knocked during the plugging-in of jumpers seems to have been overlooked in the design process? Or did it get moved from its original position, in order to accommodate later changes? Could that have anything to with it being the "wrong way up" compared to other cocks?

By the way you say the CS stock can be hauled by anything with a coupling adapter at the moment - is that true? I thought it always has to have a 92 or 73/9 there, even if it isn't providing traction power. Effectively the 92 or 73 is the coupling adapter. Or maybe you mean for empty stock moves and so on? It appears to me that effectively they have ended up with something with no interoperability. So there would not be much lost if a dedicated coupling system were used.
 

Taunton

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Or just carry out the brake test after everything else has been carried out
Which is now the procedure, and also likely to become the Rule Book requirement.
What is "everything else"? The subsequent work done was nothing to do with the air braking system. What if mid-journey you go back and check the ETS jumpers mid-journey because a fault is indicated. Do you have to do a brake test again?
 

6Z09

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If you go in between the Loco and coaches or between coaches for any reason the brake test will have to be carried out again
Brake test last action is the way I read it.
Much discussion about the incident, a perhaps over simplistic view would be that a major factor was the initial task was abandoned without completion.
The fact that the local operation manual was out of date makes any appropriation of blame impossible.
 
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43096

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I know that the Southern had a particular safety concern that caused them to have their jumper connectors at windscreen height, but I would question if it's safer to have your shunter on the ground plugging stuff in or balanced on a stepboard.
Even the Southern had regular track level coupling/uncoupling at ground level: the REPs and TCs had standard ETH jumpers that needed to be plugged in.

At present the Cally Sleeper can be hauled by ANY loco by means of a coupler adapter
Only in the sense that you could drag the set. The only option for daily operation south of Glasgow/Edinburgh is a Class 92 as only they have the necessary 1500V train supply and sufficiently high train supply rating for a 16-car formation.
 

O L Leigh

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You're right that I'm inferring a lot, and I might be wrong. I don't design trains but I do design other stuff (buildings mainly) and this means that I feel I have some sense of recognising things that tend to happen as a result of a compromised design process, though.

<snip>

And many projects have a point at which they can go two ways: either, someone decides that there are so many unforeseen problems building up as a consequence of the basic original concept, the sensible response is to go back and rethink that original concept. Or, no-one makes that call, and the project crashes on, becoming gradually more complex and expensive and ending up with a result that is full of compromises and workarounds. To me, this has various hallmarks of the latter taking place (evident design compromises, lots of stuff that doesn't work well, loads of teething problems, extensive delays), and I can also see exactly what pressures could have lead to this (political pressure not to go back on the original promise, and so on).

I might be completely wrong of course.

It's no less plausible than any other explanation. That said, I'm not so sure that the designers set out to take full advantage of the Cl92's ETS rating and deliberately build a train that is power hungry as part of the design brief (i.e. what can we throw at the train to use up all the power available). I would imagine that the process started from the opposite end by working out what it is that the modern sleeper traveller is likely to want in terms of facilities and services onboard and what could be offered to tempt leisure (and maybe even business) travellers into paying a bit more. Having worked that out the question would then be whether or not it's feasible to deliver these in terms of the design of the coaches themselves as well as the power supply requirements. No doubt the Cally Sleeper needs a lot of juice, some of which will be a consequence of the number of additional power requirements a sleeper coach has compared to a day coach, but it will also be due in no small part to the length of the train.

I seem to recall reading a while back that the Delner was specified because it is superior compared to the old Buckeyes in terms of it's mechanical performance. Coupling (and uncoupling) could be done more gently, thereby transferring fewer shocks through the train and generating less noise, all of which gives a better experience for the traveller. I'm not sure that there was ever any serious intent to use all the automatic features of the auto-coupler, especially as the ETS would still require a separate connection.

I do wonder, though, at what stage was the design and position of the BPIC decided? Could it have been at a stage in the design where there was still an intention for a fully automatic coupling? Could that explain why the risk of it getting knocked during the plugging-in of jumpers seems to have been overlooked in the design process? Or did it get moved from its original position, in order to accommodate later changes? Could that have anything to with it being the "wrong way up" compared to other cocks?

All good questions, the answers to which we shall never know.

By the way you say the CS stock can be hauled by anything with a coupling adapter at the moment - is that true? I thought it always has to have a 92 or 73/9 there, even if it isn't providing traction power. Effectively the 92 or 73 is the coupling adapter. Or maybe you mean for empty stock moves and so on? It appears to me that effectively they have ended up with something with no interoperability. So there would not be much lost if a dedicated coupling system were used.

Only in the sense that you could drag the set. The only option for daily operation south of Glasgow/Edinburgh is a Class 92 as only they have the necessary 1500V train supply and sufficiently high train supply rating for a 16-car formation.

The point I was making with regard to any loco being able to provide haulage has more to do with the brakes than the couplers or ETS. My point being that you'd surely want a train that used the two-pipe brake system rather than some other system because then you can use any loco to haul it. Coupling adapters provide the mechanical and air connections that would allow the Cally Sleeper to be attached to the drawhook and air pipes of any loco and allow that train to be worked normally. Of course this would not be ideal from a service perspective if the loco could not provide adequate ETS and lacked communication equipment for the crew, but it could still be moved without the need to wait for either a specially adapted loco or translators for the purposes of ECS, rescue and shunting.

What is "everything else"? The subsequent work done was nothing to do with the air braking system. What if mid-journey you go back and check the ETS jumpers mid-journey because a fault is indicated. Do you have to do a brake test again?

From the RAIB recommendations, all other coupling activities (RAIB Para 127). "Everything else" means sorting out and configuring all the mechanical, air and electrical connections. Once all these are finished, then you brake test the train.

Even the Southern had regular track level coupling/uncoupling at ground level: the REPs and TCs had standard ETH jumpers that needed to be plugged in.

Yes of course. My point was that even though the shunter has to get down and dirty to make and unmake the various connections, from an ergonomic and safety point of view it's probably safer than having to undertake the same task at height stood on a stepboard.
 

Bulliver

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Driver apparently reported to the signaller that he couldn't bring the train to a stand while between Haymarket and Waverley, train sailed through Waverley with the route set accordingly and stopped near Craigentinny. Bizarre state of affairs.
Look at the RAIB report. The air brake isolation cock at the front of the first carriage of the Edinburgh section had (most likely) accidentally been knocked shut when the driver and shunter both struggled to plug in the electrical connection jumper cable between the carriage and the loco. Thus the train brakes were off and isolated from control by the driver. He was using the loco's brakes (rheostatic and air) with a similar effect to a loose-coupled goods train with no brakes pinned down and no guard's van brake operating. The driver radioed Control to get a clear route through Waverley, but did not sound the loco's horn to warn the 'train manager' something was wrong - the TM was not in his 'office' when the driver called him. Only when it was obvious to the TM that the train was approaching Waverley too quickly did he press the emegency buttons that, together with the loco's brakes, brought the train to a halt.
The supposedly hard locking open position of the isolation cock was not so hard locking, and the handle was somehow moved to the closed position after the driver had performed the required full application on the just connected Edinburgh section of the train. It's hard to consider every single possibility when designing something, or when making rules.
 

LowLevel

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Yes, as a conscientious railwayman I have now read the report in great detail (and had done within hours of it being published :lol: )
 

BRX

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From the RAIB recommendations, all other coupling activities (RAIB Para 127). "Everything else" means sorting out and configuring all the mechanical, air and electrical connections. Once all these are finished, then you brake test the train.
Would a more failsafe approach be: immediately after brake test, you apply the full train brakes. Then if anything gets fiddled with in between that point and the train moving off, that breaks the continuity, you simply would not be able to move.

(I was a bit surprised that the RAIB report didn't offer much commentary on the fact that the driver left the train held on the loco brakes only, when he left the cab to assist the shunter. Is that normal practice?)
 

O L Leigh

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Would a more failsafe approach be: immediately after brake test, you apply the full train brakes. Then if anything gets fiddled with in between that point and the train moving off, that breaks the continuity, you simply would not be able to move.

I wouldn't have said so, no. If you're still fiddling with things in between then there's still a risk of accidentally moving a BPIC, therefore it's not the appropriate time to be brake testing the train. Do the brake test last and prove continuity and then step away from the train.
 

XAM2175

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... I do wonder, though, at what stage was the design and position of the BPIC decided? Could it have been at a stage in the design where there was still an intention for a fully automatic coupling? Could that explain why the risk of it getting knocked during the plugging-in of jumpers seems to have been overlooked in the design process? Or did it get moved from its original position, in order to accommodate later changes? Could that have anything to with it being the "wrong way up" compared to other cocks?...
All good questions, the answers to which we shall never know.

This is addressed in the Report. Paragraphs 98 and 99 note that the original design intent in April 2016 was for the use of fully-automatic couplers, for which the BPIC would be located in compartments accessed from the end vestibules of the coaches. CAF feared, however, that this arrangement would lead to unacceptably-high brake propagation times along 16-coach rakes, and so when the fully-auto coupler idea was abandoned the isolation cocks were moved to the as-built position.

Paragraphs 105 to 108 note that the as-built design for the isolation cocks is technically allowable because the TSI requirements do not consider the Dellner coupling to be "manual", and so the BS EN 14601:2005+A1:2010 standard does not apply. If it were to be applied, it would require (amongst other things) that the handle be pointing upwards when the cock is closed.
 

DelW

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People. Can we please stop calling it the "Cally" sleeper. It's Caley!
Going by the spelling alone, I'd pronounce "Cally" as cal-lee, but "Caley" as kay-lee. Is it too late to say I'm sorry?
If you live in north London (not far from King's Cross) you'd be more used to "Cally" as the shortening (in this case) for Caledonian Road, as in the Cally Pool leisure centre among other local businesses:
 

kingqueen

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The RAIB didn't go into why the cable or connector was so difficult that both the driver and the guard had to wrestle with it before they could get it to connect (and likely knocking the brake pipe isolating valve in the process.) What was up with the cable or connector?
 

hwl

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The RAIB didn't go into why the cable or connector was so difficult that both the driver and the guard had to wrestle with it before they could get it to connect (and likely knocking the brake pipe isolating valve in the process.) What was up with the cable or connector?
That is what I'd like to know too, sounds like trying to source the cheapest possible components whether they are suitable or not.
 

6Z09

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The ETH cables/Plugs are exactly the same as on the old coaches .And they could be problematic at times also.
The Brake cocks are perfectly functional although of a different standard to the old stock.
Human error happens!
 

Bletchleyite

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Human error does happen, which is why we design to prevent it killing people (or coming very close to doing so, as in this case) and we evolve that design each time we create new. This was an abject failure here.
 

6Z09

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Human error does happen, which is why we design to prevent it killing people (or coming very close to doing so, as in this case) and we evolve that design each time we create new. This was an abject failure here.
Perhaps a lack of Railway "nous " within the Caledonian Sleeper hierarchy?
 

Bald Rick

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Perhaps a lack of Railway "nous " within the Caledonian Sleeper hierarchy?

Unlikely. Former MD before the last one, and now the chair of Serco rail, is as old railway as you can get. He also used to run the sleepers as part of his dept in the early 90s. The Ops Director is similarly old railway.
 

mcmad

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Not sure if I'd class who was introduced as Ops Director on a call I was on recently as Old Railway but it might not have been the same person you're referring to.
 

Bald Rick

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Not sure if I'd class who was introduced as Ops Director on a call I was on recently as Old Railway but it might not have been the same person you're referring to.

My apologies, I meant the former Operations Director, who was there when the trains were ordered and were being built.
 
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