Braking Rates

[thachieman350]

Hi all

Saw a LM Desiro rush into Bletchley today at what must have been about 30 - 40 mph, not braking until half way along the platform and it got me wondering how good the brakes are on trains these days.
Which has the best for their class ?

Thanks Jesse

 

[DXMachina]

Saw it stated elsewhere on here that the train with the best brake performance currently known was a former Cl.101 power twin refitted with conventional brakes, used as a departmental lab unit. googling would probably reveal more.

 

[p123]

To be honest, I've wondered why our trains don't come into stations much faster than they do at the moment.

On the continent it's amazing how trains like the ICE in Germany, and SBB/OBB trains in Switzerland and Austria fly right into the stations. I was blown away by the speed some ICE's go into stations in Germany when I was there last year! Have to wonder why ours aren't like that!

 

[asylumxl]

To be honest, I've wondered why our trains don't come into stations much faster than they do at the moment.

On the continent it's amazing how trains like the ICE in Germany, and SBB/OBB trains in Switzerland and Austria fly right into the stations. I was blown away by the speed some ICE's go into stations in Germany when I was there last year! Have to wonder why ours aren't like that!

Fear of incidents (SPADs etc) due to poor adhesion etc?

Just a vague guess.

 

[WatcherZero]

Braking hard increasing maintence and energy costs over coasting and gradual braking?

 

[DownSouth]

Reluctance to innovate?

Disproportionately powerful unions?

Operational convenience being allowed undue power in decision making processes?

Padded timetables?

Cultures of mediocrity?

 

[Goldfish62]

To be honest, I've wondered why our trains don't come into stations much faster than they do at the moment.

On the continent it's amazing how trains like the ICE in Germany, and SBB/OBB trains in Switzerland and Austria fly right into the stations. I was blown away by the speed some ICE's go into stations in Germany when I was there last year! Have to wonder why ours aren't like that!

Defensive driving.

I agree - trains on the Continent do come into stations much quicker. Doors are also usually released just before the train comes to a halt (bit of a contrast with the ridiculously long pause on most SWT trains - worse than any other TOC for some reason). Both these must save a lot of time/free up paths.

 

[Hydro]

Saw it stated elsewhere on here that the train with the best brake performance currently known was a former Cl.101 power twin refitted with conventional brakes, used as a departmental lab unit. googling would probably reveal more.

IRIS, the old radio survey unit. 101 DMU fitted with air brakes, apparently had very good braking performance.

 

[DarloRich]

To be honest, I've wondered why our trains don't come into stations much faster than they do at the moment.

On the continent it's amazing how trains like the ICE in Germany, and SBB/OBB trains in Switzerland and Austria fly right into the stations. I was blown away by the speed some ICE's go into stations in Germany when I was there last year! Have to wonder why ours aren't like that!

What you must understand is that the fiendish and efficient Germans have developed a much better system at deploying their anchors. Ours take ages to deploy. You see they use computers and lasers to design things while we use blokes in a shed in Derby or York or Darlo with hammers, string , paper and stuff like that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IRIS, the old radio survey unit. 101 DMU fitted with air brakes, apparently had very good braking performance.

we talked abut this the other day! The very same point was made that Iris could stop in a very short distance. No one could remember why!

Was IRIS not broken up recently? I think that is what started off a colleagues ramble down memory lane

 

[O L Leigh]

Reluctance to innovate?

Disproportionately powerful unions?

Operational convenience being allowed undue power in decision making processes?

Padded timetables?

Cultures of mediocrity?

Pfft...!!! What lot of tosh.

Primarily it's due to safety. Passengers are often standing on approach to stations, possibly reaching for heavy items of luggage, and don't really want to be subject to heavy braking forces inside the train. Then there are issues relating to railhead conditions and what happens if you suddenly get into a slide or misjudge your braking. It's these sorts of mediocre and old-fashioned operating practices that keep the number of station overruns and on-train passenger injuries so low. Besides, it has nothing to do with the power of the unions as it is the TOCs that decide on driving technique and train their staff accordingly.

Or are you simply trolling in the hope of a reaction...?

Darlorich: I would like some citation for your claim about these whizzy new brakes that those fiendish Germans are using and your counter-claim that British train brakes are slow.

O L Leigh

 

[DarloRich]

Darlorich: I would like some citation for your claim about these whizzy new brakes that those fiendish Germans are using and your counter-claim that British train brakes are slow.

O L Leigh

It was a joke!

Although rail head condition is a very, very important factor in braking distance / performance ( as you will know!)

 

[The Planner]

Or are you simply trolling in the hope of a reaction...?

I nearly bit...

 

[33056]

Was IRIS not broken up recently? I think that is what started off a colleagues ramble down memory lane

IRIS is alive and well on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway and very nicely restored it is as well

Having been on hundreds of trains in Germany I can honestly say that I have never been the slightest bit unbalanced during braking for stations, even when hitting the end of the platform at some speed though I have to say that they only normally do that where there is not a terminal platform or some other restriction.

 

[A-driver]

I havnt been on any German trains so not sure how much faster they hit stations but most uk companies have strict braking regulations to limit the amount of brake force drivers may use routinely.

In the old days drivers were instructed to go straight into step 3 (full service) on the brake and run it back to step 2 when speed is reduced enough and then finally 1 as the train stops. This would give a faster run into stations than modern barking policy allows.

Whist you will not be told off for using step 3 if you need it (better to splash 3 in a bit than over-run a station) we will be criticsed for using step 3 as our routine braking step. They like us to do our braking in step 1 and 2 and reserve 3 for times we need a bit extra for whatever reason. That significantly slows the approach to stations in itself.

It all depends on the stock and station but some stations on downhill gradients where the stopping point is only 3 or 4 coaches into the platform I would hit as low as 15-20mph. Other stations on level or uphill gradients where you are heading to the very end of a 12 car platform with a well braked train I may hit at 35-40mph and stop comfortably. If the platform requires the train to be lined up with mirrors or screens rather than just a stop board then it slows it down as if you miss by even a couple of inches it can mean part of the train disappears out of view.

 

[ng1980]

I havnt been on any German trains so not sure how much faster they hit stations but most uk companies have strict braking regulations to limit the amount of brake force drivers may use routinely.

In the old days drivers were instructed to go straight into step 3 (full service) on the brake and run it back to step 2 when speed is reduced enough and then finally 1 as the train stops. This would give a faster run into stations than modern barking policy allows.

Whist you will not be told off for using step 3 if you need it (better to splash 3 in a bit than over-run a station) we will be criticsed for using step 3 as our routine braking step. They like us to do our braking in step 1 and 2 and reserve 3 for times we need a bit extra for whatever reason. That significantly slows the approach to stations in itself.

It all depends on the stock and station but some stations on downhill gradients where the stopping point is only 3 or 4 coaches into the platform I would hit as low as 15-20mph. Other stations on level or uphill gradients where you are heading to the very end of a 12 car platform with a well braked train I may hit at 35-40mph and stop comfortably. If the platform requires the train to be lined up with mirrors or screens rather than just a stop board then it slows it down as if you miss by even a couple of inches it can mean part of the train disappears out of view.

He he. So how fast are train drivers allowed to bark? More interestingly, is there a policy on how loud?

(Sorry I haven't been able to delete irrelevant parts of previous message -.internet down so using phone!)

 

[A-driver]

He he. So how fast are train drivers allowed to bark? More interestingly, is there a policy on how loud?

(Sorry I haven't been able to delete irrelevant parts of previous message -.internet down so using phone!)

iPhone autocorrect is a really annoying feature! You should see some of the texts I have sent whilst in a hurry!

 

[DarloRich]

IRIS is alive and well on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway and very nicely restored it is as well

Having been on hundreds of trains in Germany I can honestly say that I have never been the slightest bit unbalanced during braking for stations, even when hitting the end of the platform at some speed though I have to say that they only normally do that where there is not a terminal platform or some other restriction.

It is IRIS 2 Hydro means - at least that is the one i mean! ( it is the class 101 based unit 901002?)

 

[Hydro]

Yes, should have been clearer - IRIS 2, return of the killer IRIS. I'm sure that's been preserved too though.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, should have been clearer - IRIS 2, return of the killer IRIS. I'm sure that's been preserved too though.

Yes - looking at it i think it went to WSR then to Barry Island where it lives to this day! (Did IRIS II get Air brakes or was it only 901001?)

It was 901001 that went for scrap not 901002!

 

[33056]

Ah yes, I forgot there was an IRIS 2; won't forget the original one in a hurry after bringing 6 tracks worth of rail traffic to a halt one afternoon doing a fancy move with it (Wasn't mine or IRIS fault, the route stuck in!)

 

[455driver]

When driving 10 coach 444/ 8 or 12 coach 450s I regularly pass the platform ramp doing 40mph and stop smoothly on the mark using about 30% brake, have hit a few quite a bit quicker when late/ on last trip/ forgot about the stop/ bored/ asleep* using a bit more brake but always stop smoothly, well except once when it did stop but it wasnt very smooth and my toes were a bit curly but I aint telling you about that one!


* delete as applicable, the last 3 are a joke by the way!