Brand name painkillers/drugs etc vs own brand cheaper versions.

[Meerkat]

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And I genuinely heard someone say "there weren't any decent branded painkillers, I had to buy Tesco ibuprofen".

Er, you know it's exactly the same, right?

It isn’t exactly the same is it? The active ingredient maybe but the rest....
I am a Nurofen brand junkie, but when I was ill my mum got me own brand and they made me unpleasantly nauseous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t exactly the same is it? The active ingredient maybe but the rest....
I am a Nurofen brand junkie, but when I was ill my mum got me own brand and they made me unpleasantly nauseous.

To all intents and purposes it's the same. Unless you're allergic to an ingredient I suppose. I suspect the reason for the nausea could well have been different.

 

[Meerkat]

To all intents and purposes it's the same. Unless you're allergic to an ingredient I suppose. I suspect the reason for the nausea could well have been different.

Don’t they use different stuff for the casings and the ingredients that control absorption etc? (Can you tell I am not a chemist.....)
It was definitely the Tablets as it happened more than once

 

[ComUtoR]

Don’t they use different stuff for the casings and the ingredients that control absorption etc? (Can you tell I am not a chemist.....)
It was definitely the Tablets as it happened more than once

Nurofen:
(https://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-nurofen-tablets)
Ibuprofen
Croscarmellose sodium
Sodium lauryl sulfate
Sodium citrate
Stearic acid
Colloidal anhydrous silica
Calcium sulfate dehydrate
Acacia (spray dried)
Sucrose
Titanium dioxide
Carnauba wax powder
Purified water



Boots Ibuprofen :
(https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.8086.pdf)
Ibuprofen
Lactose,
Maize Starch,
Hypromellose,
Sodium Starch Glycollate,
Colloidal Anhydrous Silica,
Magnesium Stearate,
Sucrose,
Talc,
Titanium Dioxide (E171)
Carnauba Wax.

Pretty much the same ingredients. I've highlighted the identical ingredients on both lists. Brand names are a poor choice. I used to work in Superdrug, many moons ago. Our Locum would always recommend the generic where possible. My Doctor does too. She always says to get the non branded stuff.

 

[6Gman]

Nurofen:
(https://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-nurofen-tablets)
Ibuprofen
Croscarmellose sodium
Sodium lauryl sulfate
Sodium citrate
Stearic acid
Colloidal anhydrous silica
Calcium sulfate dehydrate
Acacia (spray dried)
Sucrose
Titanium dioxide
Carnauba wax powder
Purified water



Boots Ibuprofen :
(https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.8086.pdf)
Ibuprofen
Lactose,
Maize Starch,
Hypromellose,
Sodium Starch Glycollate,
Colloidal Anhydrous Silica,
Magnesium Stearate,
Sucrose,
Talc,
Titanium Dioxide (E171)
Carnauba Wax.

Pretty much the same ingredients. I've highlighted the identical ingredients on both lists. Brand names are a poor choice. I used to work in Superdrug, many moons ago. Our Locum would always recommend the generic where possible. My Doctor does too. She always says to get the non branded stuff.

The active ingredients may be the same. The inactive ingredients however . . .

Mrs 6G has fallen foul of this; three brands are fine, two other brands have nasty side-effects. Simply down to fillers, coatings or similar.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Branded vs Non-branded painkillers haven’t really bothered me personally. They all do the same job, if anything was that painful that I required something stronger, I’d likely be summoning help from a doctor or 999-operator.

 

[JohnMcL7]

This is a good read on the subject and many others:

Bad Science: Amazon.co.uk: Goldacre, Ben: 9780007284870: Books

Buy Bad Science Reprint by Goldacre, Ben (ISBN: 9780007284870) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

One of the early chapters goes into detail on the placebo effect which is far more complex than I appreciated and still largely misunderstood. The difference in the branded drugs is the branding and presentation and there's considerable effort put into choosing the colours of the packaging and the tablets themselves, one of the companies was in trouble recently because they offered a range of painkillers making out that each one was specialised for a certain use when actually they were all identical. What the book explains is that your belief on how well the product does or doesn't work actually does effect its performance, those that believe generic drugs don't work and that branded drugs do work will actually find that they don't feel better (or in some cases worse) with generic medications and will feel better with branded drugs.

There was a Horizon program I think it was where they started at the Glasgow velodrome under the premise they were testing a new performance drug for cycling. The cyclists were first asked to perform a high speed run to set a benchmark speed then split in two with one given an existing performance drug and the other half given the new drug then asked to try another performance which the cyclists objected to pointing out they'd normally need a day or more to recover and get an accurate time. They pushed ahead and those on the existing drug managed a similar speed but the ones on the new drug to their surprise managed to go faster and one set their fastest ever time, they were asked how they felt and explained how when they felt they were starting to tire they were able to keep on pushing harder. They were then told neither group had actually been given anything, both types of tables were placebos. It's a very powerful effect and it's also why some alternative remedies appear so effective even though they have no active ingredients.

 

[Qwerty133]

Nurofen:
(https://www.wired.co.uk/article/whats-inside-nurofen-tablets)
Ibuprofen
Croscarmellose sodium
Sodium lauryl sulfate
Sodium citrate
Stearic acid
Colloidal anhydrous silica
Calcium sulfate dehydrate
Acacia (spray dried)
Sucrose
Titanium dioxide
Carnauba wax powder
Purified water



Boots Ibuprofen :
(https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.8086.pdf)
Ibuprofen
Lactose,
Maize Starch,
Hypromellose,
Sodium Starch Glycollate,
Colloidal Anhydrous Silica,
Magnesium Stearate,
Sucrose,
Talc,
Titanium Dioxide (E171)
Carnauba Wax.

Pretty much the same ingredients. I've highlighted the identical ingredients on both lists. Brand names are a poor choice. I used to work in Superdrug, many moons ago. Our Locum would always recommend the generic where possible. My Doctor does too. She always says to get the non branded stuff.

Presumably the issue in this case will usually be the lactose in the Boots product causing an allergic reaction, which as most probably don't read the leaflet they are putting down to it being an inferior product.

 

[philjo]

Just search by the product name, active substance or Licence number (PL) on the MHRA site to see the patient information leaflets which will show the ingredients.
https://products.mhra.gov.uk/

For many generic products, there are several versions using the same licence number. E.g. the Paracetamol I have is generic but there are also Boots branded and Superdrug branded versions of the leaflets. All will contain the same product in different packaging.

The branded product would use a different PL number.

 

[Mag_seven]

One thing I did notice was that in the "panic buying" phase of a few weeks ago the "own brand" boxes of paracetamol were the first ones to be stripped from the shelves leaving the more expensive brands as the only ones left to buy.

 

[najaB]

It isn’t exactly the same is it? The active ingredient maybe but the rest....

They are typically the same drugs, made on the same production line but put into different-coloured packets.

I never buy branded pharmaceuticals unless there's no choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sometimes, as shown above, the "packing material" is different. If you're lactose intolerant, say, it might make a difference. (I never saw a medication containing gluten).

For most people, though, you are totally correct - branded over the counter basic pharmaceuticals are a waste of money.

 

[AM9]

Sometimes, as shown above, the "packing material" is different. If you're lactose intolerant, say, it might make a difference. (I never saw a medication containing gluten).

For most people, though, you are totally correct - branded over the counter basic pharmaceuticals are a waste of money.

Or as some would say, "a source of profit"!

 

[AM9]

Aside from very specific allergies, that are frequently irrelevant at the levels found in authorised drugs, this article makes it quite clear how the UK controls claims by Pharma companies claims that their expensive branded product is better/more effective/etc., than the plain vanilla BP (and implied boring) version:
https://www.theguardian.com/science...r-than-cheaper-generic-ones-iboprofen-nurofen
Guardian article entitled: Do branded painkillers work better than cheaper generic ones?

It summarises: At the end of the day, the best guard against paying more is the knowledge that, under UK law, consumers are protected and can safely buy the cheapest versions on offer. If, however, you need to get on with your day free of pain, and you don’t have the patience to wait, then you can pay more for the express version. But the generic fast-acting forms will do it just as effectively as the expensive brands in their fancy packaging. ​

​

This is what irk's Trump as he want's us to be slaves to the US disaster of overpriced heavily marketed 'fixers'.

 

[najaB]

Sometimes, as shown above, the "packing material" is different. If you're lactose intolerant, say, it might make a difference.

I'd be really surprised if there's enough lactose in a couple of pills for your body to even notice given that it's an intolerance rather than an allergy.

 

[ComUtoR]

Or as some would say, "a source of profit"!

The problem is, we need the more expensive brand names because they help fund future medication. Pharmasuetical companies spend millions in research and development so they release the drugs and have exclusivity and charge extra to recoup costs and help finance more research. There are many negatives and I'll admit the system is broken but a necessary evil.

 

[najaB]

Pharmasuetical companies spend millions in research and development so they release the drugs and have exclusivity and charge extra to recoup costs and help finance more research. There are many negatives and I'll admit the system is broken but a necessary evil.

That makes sense when you are talking about new drugs - companies should absolutely recoup their expenses and make a (reasonable) profit. But the whole reason that generic drugs exist is because they are out of their proprietary/exclusivity period so the only justification for the massive difference in price is profit.

As an example, I've seen Ibuprofen on the shelf in Boots for (prices approximate): £4/16 as name brand, £1/16 for the Boots brand and £0.30/16 for the Boots white label version.

 

[Harpers Tate]

This is what irk's Trump as he want's us to be slaves to the US disaster of overpriced heavily marketed 'fixers'.

...which presumably explains why you can walk into a WalMart store in the USA and buy 500 Asprin or Ibuprofen or Acetaminophen (= Paracetamol) or 100 Diphenhydramine (= Nytol) or 100 Loperamide Hcl etc etc etc with their own branding and at a tiny fraction of the retail cost (either over here or over there) of a branded equivalent. Or perhaps not.

 

[najaB]

...which presumably explains why you can walk into a WalMart store in the USA and buy 500 Asprin or Ibuprofen or Acetaminophen (= Paracetamol) or 100 Diphenhydramine (= Nytol) or 100 Loperamide Hcl etc etc etc with their own branding and at a tiny fraction of the retail cost (either over here or over there) of a branded equivalent. Or perhaps not.

By the same token, a month's supply of insulin costs approx. $1,000 in the USA vs around $150 in the UK.

 

[ComUtoR]

That makes sense when you are talking about new drugs - companies should absolutely recoup their expenses and make a (reasonable) profit. But the whole reason that generic drugs exist is because they are out of their proprietary/exclusivity period so the only justification for the massive difference in price is profit.

They invest billions into research and development. That money comes in part from the money they make from existing medications. It's a huge cycle. It isn't just about 'making a profit'

 

[najaB]

They invest billions into research and development. That money comes in part from the money they make from existing medications. It's a huge cycle. It isn't just about 'making a profit'

The exclusivity period for drugs (the time when only you can sell it) is typically five years, and the patent period (during which time people have to pay you to produce it) is up to 20 years. If you can't make back the money you spent on researching a drug (a process that typically takes between 2 and 5 years) in that time, then you're doing something wrong.

And again, we're talking about things like aspirin, which was first isolated and produced pharmaceutically nearly a century and a half ago!

 

[bspahh]

The exclusivity period for drugs (the time when only you can sell it) is typically five years, and the patent period (during which time people have to pay you to produce it) is up to 20 years. If you can't make back the money you spent on researching a drug (a process that typically takes between 2 and 5 years) in that time, then you're doing something wrong.

Where did you get a value of 2-5 years?

https://drug-dev.com/development-timelines-drug-development-times-what-it-takes-part-1/ quotes 8.2 years for "the mean average Development and Review Time in years for a company to successfully move a product from the start of the clinical development process through to approval"

You also need to add on a few more years for the preclinical research to come up with the drug in the first place. 14 years is a typical time from the date of the patent when a compound was first made, to the date of approval.

The development of Velcade (bortezomib) was really fast, taking 7 years from the first time the compound was synthesised to the date when it was approved for sale. That was an outlier - it was the first in class drug, treating patients without much of an alternative, and was approved for sale after only a phase II trial. It was also lucky that the 2nd patient to get it had a complete response, which normally only happens for 1 in 7 patients.

 

[najaB]

Where did you get a value of 2-5 years?

Two to five years of active research to get you to Phase 1 trial.

As you say, the trials phase will typically add between a year to 18 months, and pre-medical research (just trying to synthesise new compounds without specific medical purpose in mind) can take years - but I've excluded that because it's not specific to a particular drug (and the time can often be budgeted across several different drugs).

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Aren't branded and non branded painkillers exactly the same if they have the same PL Code? Makes no sense buying a branded product like Nurofen if Ibuprofen is the exact same product.

 

[bspahh]

Two to five years of active research to get you to Phase 1 trial.

As you say, the trials phase will typically add between a year to 18 months, and pre-medical research (just trying to synthesise new compounds without specific medical purpose in mind) can take years - but I've excluded that because it's not specific to a particular drug (and the time can often be budgeted across several different drugs).

A drug company doesn't earn any money from getting to a phase 1 trial. That is when it starts to get really expensive.

https://www.statnews.com/wp-content...me_Trends_in_Biopharmaceutical_Innovation.pdf says

The average time from original patent filing until U.S. launch for all molecules is 12.8 years, with upper and lower quartiles of 16.3 and 8.2 years respectively. Significant outliers exist at both ends of the distribution curve, typically due to specific characteristics of the molecules or drug development history. Since 2008, the average elapsed time from patent filing to launch has declined, with the most recent 5-year cohort having declined by more than four years, or by 25%.

There is a plot on page 6 with the data on how long it took for a "New Active Substance" (small molecule drugs or biologics like an antibody) to go from patent filing to approval.

 

[Bald Rick]

That makes sense when you are talking about new drugs - companies should absolutely recoup their expenses and make a (reasonable) profit. But the whole reason that generic drugs exist is because they are out of their proprietary/exclusivity period so the only justification for the massive difference in price is profit.

As an example, I've seen Ibuprofen on the shelf in Boots for (prices approximate): £4/16 as name brand, £1/16 for the Boots brand and £0.30/16 for the Boots white label version.

And the odd thing about this is that Ibuprofen was discovered by a Boots Pharmacist, who tested it on himself as a hangover cure. IIRC, the Nurofen brand was owned by a division of Boots.

 

[PG]

As others have said the packaging/placebo effect is powerful but if you're unfortunate enough to be admitted to hospital you'll very likely be getting a generic product of whatever is prescribed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

One thing I did notice was that in the "panic buying" phase of a few weeks ago the "own brand" boxes of paracetamol were the first ones to be stripped from the shelves leaving the more expensive brands as the only ones left to buy.

By early March in Croydon there was no Paracetamol at any price.

They are typically the same drugs, made on the same production line but put into different-coloured packets.

I never buy branded pharmaceuticals unless there's no choice.

Same here. But I admit i am no expert as 99% of the painkillers I buy are for the better half.

If I have a headache. It could be a hangover so water. Mind you Coke/Pepsi works but I don't normally have those in the house. Best for a hangover is the hair of the dog - the thin end of the wedge of addiction.

Other headaches I drink water, go for a walk and ignore it.

On the other hand when my left arm went really bad. I ended up overdoing the inuprofen !. Went to the doctor and was given Naproxen iirc. Took half the course and decided the side effects were worse than the pain had now become.

I get back trouble but for that I lie flat on my back. Keep warm with a hot water bottle and get bored when the pain has eased off enough so start to move around. No sudden moves and a good posture has to be remembered !. In my book taking painkillers would mean I was ignoring whatever it was i was doing wrong and then further damaging my back.

I once heard tell that the important thing about taking the tablet with water is that most headaches are caused by..... dehydration. Certainly explains my headaches.

Or as some would say, "a source of profit"!

I wonder how much of the cost of Nurofen goes on the adverts ?.

......

And again, we're talking about things like aspirin, which was first isolated and produced pharmaceutically nearly a century and a half ago!

Money for old rope.

 

[robbeech]

Presumably the issue in this case will usually be the lactose in the Boots product causing an allergic reaction, which as most probably don't read the leaflet they are putting down to it being an inferior product.

Likely so, not something i had considered, although i don't tend to take such products and i'm not THAT intolerant.

I'd be really surprised if there's enough lactose in a couple of pills for your body to even notice given that it's an intolerance rather than an allergy.

Agree it is unlikely, although there are people with severe intolerances out there, and there ARE allergies to various products where lactose plays a large part so it can be important to a small number of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think milk allergies are more usually to do with casein (a protein in milk) than lactose, which is normally an intolerance because your body doesn't produce the enzyme required to digest it. Allergies (an immune response) are much more commonly against proteins, because the body confuses them with a pathogen (i.e. a virus or bacterium).

That isn't totally universal, though - the Lone Star Tick bite causes an allergy to a certain type of carbohydrate found in meat, though, requiring the person to become vegetarian. What a nightmare!