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Break in journey required?

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The Snap

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Hi all,

I have a monthly season ticket from Manchester Picc to Stafford. In July, I intend to travel from work in Stafford to London Euston, then two days later return home to Manchester Picc from Euston. If I buy an off-peak return Stafford to Euston, can I use the same train, without changing at Stafford, to get
back to Manchester from Euston, while combining an off-peak return and my season ticket?

I hope that makes sense!!! Thanks.
 
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SS4

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You may. For bonus points the train need not call at Stafford.

For future reference you are looking to split tickets rather than breaking your journey which is when you start/stop short or go out of the station for an excursion en route

edit: It's covered under 19c of the conditions of carriage as you have a season
 
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The Snap

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Excellent, thanks.

Next question then: if it doesn't need to call at Stafford, does it need to go via Stafford? Essentially, do I need to get a service via Crewe or can I go via Stoke?

Thanks
 

SS4

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It'd still have to go via Stafford. It gets more complicated if you include permitted routes
 

Haywain

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Excellent, thanks.

Next question then: if it doesn't need to call at Stafford, does it need to go via Stafford? Essentially, do I need to get a service via Crewe or can I go via Stoke?

Thanks

Personally, I don't believe it does, but that is very much a minority opinion.
 

najaB

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Next question then: if it doesn't need to call at Stafford, does it need to go via Stafford?
If you've got a ticket from Euston to Stafford on a train that doesn't pass or call at Stafford, it seems to me that you may well find yourself being asked questions with the answers recorded in a notebook.
 

John @ home

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Personally, I don't believe it does
Can you explain to me how you arrive at that belief?

My view would be that Rich would need to travel via Crewe. If travelling on a Manchester - Euston service via Stoke on its normal route, no valid ticket would be held from Stone to Colwich Jn (or the next station, Rugeley TV).
 

calc7

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I'm confused.

The OP has a season ticket between Manchester and Stafford, and all trains between Manchester and Euston pass Stafford, whether via Stoke or Crewe.

Am I missing something?

The via Stoke services avoid Stafford and use the direct line between Rugeley and Stone which diverges from the WCML at Colwich Jn.
 

Hadders

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A Stoke on Trent to Euston ticket in addition to the OP's season ticket would give the flexibility to go via Stoke or via Crewe.

Admittedly it's £5 more than a ticket from Stafford but might be worth it for the additional flexibility.

Also worth keeping an eye out for any Virgin Super Off-peak promotions during that time, as long as the time restrictions are acceptable.
 
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bb21

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The via Stoke services avoid Stafford and use the direct line between Rugeley and Stone which diverges from the WCML at Colwich Jn.

Yes, sorry. I realised after posting that I made a balls up.
 

Haywain

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Can you explain to me how you arrive at that belief?

The traveller will have two tickets covering the whole journey, one of which is a season ticket. Under NRCoC 19(c) the train does not need to call at the station where the tickets join. A direct train via Colwich will not call at the station where the tickets join and therefore meets the requirements of the condition, being tickets which cover the whole journey. I am not aware of anything that says that the train must pass through the station where the tickets join, so don't see the problem.

This works in the same way that an overdistance excess would, except that overdistance excesses are not available for season tickets.

But, as I said, I know I hold what is very much the minority view and do not therefore expect anyone to agree with me.
 

John @ home

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Under NRCoC 19(c) the train does not need to call at the station where the tickets join.
Agreed.
A direct train via Colwich will not call at the station where the tickets join
Agreed.
and therefore meets the requirements of the condition, being tickets which cover the whole journey.
Not agreed. Rich intends to use a combination of a season ticket Manchester - Stafford and a return Stafford - London. By my calculation, neither ticket is valid between Stone Jn and Colwich Jn because
  • it does not form part of the shortest route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of the shortest route Stafford - London, and
  • it does not form part of a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route Stafford - London, and
  • it does not form part of a mapped route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of a mapped route Stafford - London, and
  • the train is not a through train Manchester - Stafford, and
  • the train is not a through train Stafford - London.
Therefore the combination of tickets fails the test that "together they cover the entire journey".
I am not aware of anything that says that the train must pass through the station where the tickets join, so don't see the problem.
There is no such requirement.
 

Haywain

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Not agreed. Rich intends to use a combination of a season ticket Manchester - Stafford and a return Stafford - London. By my calculation, neither ticket is valid between Stone Jn and Colwich Jn because
  • it does not form part of the shortest route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of the shortest route Stafford - London, and
  • it does not form part of a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route Stafford - London, and
  • it does not form part of a mapped route Manchester - Stafford, and
  • it does not form part of a mapped route Stafford - London, and
  • the train is not a through train Manchester - Stafford, and
  • the train is not a through train Stafford - London.
Therefore the combination of tickets fails the test that "together they cover the entire journey".There is no such requirement.
The two tickets together cover the journey from Manchester to Euston, in the same way that a Manchester to Stafford Off-Peak return and overdistance excess would. They thus become a different ticket and all the rules regarding journeys to and from Stafford do not apply. In my opinion.

.There is no such requirement.
Yet your whole argument against my theory relies on there being such a requirement!
 
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34D

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The traveller will have two tickets covering the whole journey, one of which is a season ticket. Under NRCoC 19(c) the train does not need to call at the station where the tickets join. A direct train via Colwich will not call at the station where the tickets join and therefore meets the requirements of the condition, being tickets which cover the whole journey. I am not aware of anything that says that the train must pass through the station where the tickets join, so don't see the problem.

This works in the same way that an overdistance excess would, except that overdistance excesses are not available for season tickets.

But, as I said, I know I hold what is very much the minority view and do not therefore expect anyone to agree with me.

You're interpolating something that isn't there.

Tickets are valid between stations. For example, a York-Holyhead ticket is valid on Virgin from Manchester to Crewe - Crewe station NOT a random railway junction.

You can only transfer from one ticket to another ticket at a railway station (which for 19c need not be a station that the train calls) which need not be the start/end point of a ticket. (two zonal tickets are slightly different, but not relevant here).

Does this help your understanding somewhat?
 

jkdd77

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I know this is a lot of hassle, but would it be possible for the OP to 'changeover' his Manchester- Stafford season into a Manchester- Rugeley TV season, costing the same amount?

He would then be covered between Stone Jn and Colwich Jn. Indeed, with hindsight, it might have been better to purchase this ticket in the first place.
 

Haywain

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Does this help your understanding somewhat?
There is no problem with my understanding. I believe it is your understanding that is at fault, but I did say that I don't expect agreement on this.
 

Paul Kelly

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Interesting point there from Haywain. It agrees with what Old Timer has said previously on the forum about what was permitted in the 1970s and 80s, e.g. in the discussion about a 19(c) combination at Northampton being valid on a non-stop train that avoids Northampton.

Old Timer mentions the concept of a "fare route", which seems to have been something that existed in BR days and meant that fares were considered equally valid along various different lines/paths that were close together. This may also be related to the season ticket interavailability along different lines in the Southern area south of London, which was also discussed recently.

It seems to me that this idea of "fare routes" and interavailability has not survived well through the legal codifying of agreements at privatisation. On the other hand the concept that an over-distance excess makes the excessed fare valid on all permitted routes to the destination has been well-codified; off the top of my head I remember that the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement refers to an excess as having the effect of converting a fare into another fare.

But the process of combining a season ticket with a point-to-point ticket has on the other hand been codified differently (in NRCoC condition 19(c)). But I think it could possibly be argued that we have been taking the phrase "cover the entire journey" too literally, in terms of stretches of track, and maybe if the concept of equivalent "fare routes" are taken into account, it could have a different, more flexible, meaning?

(I am aware that I've probably killed the discussion dead at this point ;))
 
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bb21

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I believe Haywain has a very good point , tackling it from the excesses point of view, the non-availability of which in the context of season tickets isone of the reasons for the introduction of 19(c) in the first place iirc.
 

hairyhandedfool

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The traveller will have two tickets covering the whole journey, one of which is a season ticket. Under NRCoC 19(c) the train does not need to call at the station where the tickets join. A direct train via Colwich will not call at the station where the tickets join and therefore meets the requirements of the condition, being tickets which cover the whole journey. I am not aware of anything that says that the train must pass through the station where the tickets join, so don't see the problem....

There is no requirement to go via the mid-point station, that much is true, but the permitted routes for the tickets do have to meet at some point.

Each ticket has a set of permitted routes, the fact that the passenger holds two tickets for a longer journey does not mean that the permitted routes become that of the longer journey (though I can see how people might think that), in a similar way to that of a passenger holding a Nottingham-London ticket, but travelling (starting short) from Derby, they must use the permitted routes for Nottingham-London and not Derby-London, despite the latter being 'their journey'.

If the permitted routes for the tickets meet at a place that is not the split point then there is no need to go via that split point, provided that a break of journey is allowed (for example, Manchester-Warrington + Warrington-Liverpool would be Valid on any of the direct Manchester-Liverpool services regardless of which of the two routes they take - unless the permitted routes have changed recently).

....This works in the same way that an overdistance excess would, except that overdistance excesses are not available for season tickets....

An 'over-distance' excess is actually an 'Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination printed on the ticket)' excess and requires travel via the 'destination' station, 'deviation off route to a new destination' is not the same thing.

In the case of a passenger holding a Manchester-Stafford ticket, getting the train to London via Crewe (which would go via Stafford) would be 'Over-riding', but going on the direct train to London via Stoke (avoiding Stafford) would be 'Deviation off route to a new destination'.

....But, as I said, I know I hold what is very much the minority view and do not therefore expect anyone to agree with me.

Nothing wrong with having your own view point, and stating that it is your understanding is a positive thing in terms of forum use, but the rules on this are not the same as your view point and hence your view point is not correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting point there from Haywain. It agrees with what Old Timer has said previously on the forum about what was permitted in the 1970s and 80s, e.g. in the discussion about a 19(c) combination at Northampton being valid on a non-stop train that avoids Northampton.

Old Timer mentions the concept of a "fare route", which seems to have been something that existed in BR days and meant that fares were considered equally valid along various different lines/paths that were close together. This may also be related to the season ticket interavailability along different lines in the Southern area south of London, which was also discussed recently....

Certainly before Privatisation, it was 'reasonable routes' that held sway, but in 1996 it made way for 'permitted routes'.

....On the other hand the concept that an over-distance excess makes the excessed fare valid on all permitted routes to the destination has been well-codified; off the top of my head I remember that the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement refers to an excess as having the effect of converting a fare into another fare....

It has been mentioned by some forum members, but there is no agreement on what 'a fare' actually means. It is also established (by ATOC themselves) that the TSA can be interpreted in different ways by different people.

....But the process of combining a season ticket with a point-to-point ticket has on the other hand been codified differently (in NRCoC condition 19(c)). But I think it could possibly be argued that we have been taking the phrase "cover the entire journey" too literally, in terms of stretches of track, and maybe if the concept of equivalent "fare routes" are taken into account, it could have a different, more flexible, meaning?....

If you change the rules you will inevitably change the literal meaning of the rule. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes not.

At some point a line must be drawn between what is allowed and what isn't, if a literal interpretation can be reached that must define what is and is not allowed by the rule(s).
 

Haywain

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There is no requirement to go via the mid-point station, that much is true, but the permitted routes for the tickets do have to meet at some point.

Each ticket has a set of permitted routes, the fact that the passenger holds two tickets for a longer journey does not mean that the permitted routes become that of the longer journey (though I can see how people might think that), in a similar way to that of a passenger holding a Nottingham-London ticket, but travelling (starting short) from Derby, they must use the permitted routes for Nottingham-London and not Derby-London, despite the latter being 'their journey'.

If the permitted routes for the tickets meet at a place that is not the split point then there is no need to go via that split point, provided that a break of journey is allowed (for example, Manchester-Warrington + Warrington-Liverpool would be Valid on any of the direct Manchester-Liverpool services regardless of which of the two routes they take - unless the permitted routes have changed recently).
I'd argue with this, but as I read it you've argued with yourself! How would your permitted routes to and from Warrington meet without travelling through Warrington?

An 'over-distance' excess is actually an 'Over-riding (travelling beyond the destination printed on the ticket)' excess and requires travel via the 'destination' station, 'deviation off route to a new destination' is not the same thing.

In the case of a passenger holding a Manchester-Stafford ticket, getting the train to London via Crewe (which would go via Stafford) would be 'Over-riding', but going on the direct train to London via Stoke (avoiding Stafford) would be 'Deviation off route to a new destination'.
I disagree, and I am sure that others will disagree with you as well. In the case of the excess the original destination should be on a permitted route to the new destination, but after excessing you have a ticket to the new destination and it is permitted routes between the origin and the new destination which are applicable, therefore the route avoiding Stafford would be permitted.
 

bb21

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I disagree, and I am sure that others will disagree with you as well. In the case of the excess the original destination should be on a permitted route to the new destination, but after excessing you have a ticket to the new destination and it is permitted routes between the origin and the new destination which are applicable, therefore the route avoiding Stafford would be permitted.

I, and some others, agree with this interpretation, but we have been through this quite a few times before, and I don't think you will persuade hairyhandedfool. ;)
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'd argue with this, but as I read it you've argued with yourself! How would your permitted routes to and from Warrington meet without travelling through Warrington?...

Last I looked them up (and they may have changed), Manchester-Warrington was valid by Urmston (for Central) and Earlestown (for Bank Quay) and Warrington-Liverpool was valid via Hunts Cross (from Central) and via Earlestown (from Bank Quay). Since both tickets are valid at Earleestown and the train via Newton-le-Willows passes through Earlestown (it actually stops there in all cases currently) the place where the tickets change over can be Earlestown, with the passenger never having gone to Warrington.


....I disagree, and I am sure that others will disagree with you as well....

Naturally I can't stop you doing that.

....In the case of the excess the original destination should be on a permitted route to the new destination, but after excessing you have a ticket to the new destination...

I have no argument there, indeed the original destination must be on a permitted route for 'over-riding' excess fares.

....and it is permitted routes between the origin and the new destination which are applicable, therefore the route avoiding Stafford would be permitted.

I have seen no factual basis for that point of view. iKB, and 'The Manual' before it, were quite clear that 'over-riding' and 'deviation off route to a new destination' are two different things with two different processes and, consequently, different prices.
 

34D

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Are we all in agreement that (with the exception of two zonal tickets) one can only change from one ticket to another at a station?

Using HHF's Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester example, the Liverpool-Warrington is valid via Earlestown, and the Warrington-Manchester ticket is also valid via there.

One can change tickets there, and therefore not actually go via Warrington.

What is NOT happening however is the combination assuming the restrictions and validity of a Liverpool-Manchester through ticket.
 

Haywain

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Are we all in agreement that (with the exception of two zonal tickets) one can only change from one ticket to another at a station?

In the sense of what can be purchased, obviously. In the sense of how they can then be used, clearly not.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Are we all in agreement that (with the exception of two zonal tickets) one can only change from one ticket to another at a station?...

I think there may be potential for a changeover point to be a junction rather than a station, where one ticket is a season ticket and the other(s) not, but I would imagine that scenario to be very rare and in all cases we would still be talking about two tickets that meet at that point. The op in this thread is not an example of this however (I'm really struggling to think of a credible example to be honest).

....Using HHF's Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester example, the Liverpool-Warrington is valid via Earlestown, and the Warrington-Manchester ticket is also valid via there.

One can change tickets there, and therefore not actually go via Warrington.

What is NOT happening however is the combination assuming the restrictions and validity of a Liverpool-Manchester through ticket.

Yes indeed, I probably could have made that clearer.
 

The Snap

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Thanks guys, I appreciate your time on this. I wasn't anticipating opening such a can of worms, but nevertheless it seems to have prompted a worthwhile discussion.

I think my safest bet is to get a train via-Crewe from Euston, just to be on the safe side. It makes no odds to me really as the journey time is the same.

If anyone is interested, I ended up buying two off-peak singles (online only) between Stafford and Euston and vice versa.

Thanks.
 

SS4

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If anyone is interested, I ended up buying two off-peak singles (online only) between Stafford and Euston and vice versa.

Thanks.

I'm quite interested in how they were printed out. Did they come as an off-peak return? When I've done this in the past they've printed off as an off peak return (and weekend first)
 

LexyBoy

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Interesting points raised by Haywain, I can see the argument but wouldn't like to test it myself.

Are we all in agreement that (with the exception of two zonal tickets) one can only change from one ticket to another at a station?

This "changing from one ticket to another" appears only in Condition 19(b).

Condition 19(c) requires no such thing, only that one ticket is a Season and the other(s) are not, and that "together they cover the entire journey".

Whether a 19(c) combination is valid on a train which does not follow a route which is completely covered by Permitted Routes of the tickets used depends on the interpretation of "cover the entire journey". I can see both sides but as usual there's no point in pushing it as any call for clarification would lead to the more restrictive interpretation being applied.

I'm quite interested in how they were printed out. Did they come as an off-peak return? When I've done this in the past they've printed off as an off peak return (and weekend first)

Bound to be this, it's just displayed as two singles on Virgin's site to encourage you to buy Advances where possible.
 
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