Break of journey

[boyaloud]

Query re an off peak London to Manchester ticket. The return portion, if i broke journey at Milton Keynes, can I then take any train from there to Manchester on another day?

 

[AlterEgo]

You cannot take any train, but must instead comply with the published time restrictions based on your off peak ticket.

In your case you would be unable to depart:

Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;

...on any weekday that isn't a Bank Holiday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, if you do take an evening peak train (one restricted from Euston) be prepared for an argument.

 

[tony_mac]

Query re an off peak London to Manchester ticket. The return portion, if i broke journey at Milton Keynes, can I then take any train from there to Manchester on another day?

assuming that you mean the return portion of a Manchester to London Any Permitted off-peak return then it is:-

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45;
...
Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;

I'm not aware of anything that says you may board a barred train later on in its journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

assuming that you mean the return portion of a Manchester to London Any Permitted off-peak return then it is:-



I'm not aware of anything that says you may board a barred train later on in its journey.

We've had this discussion just recently. Manchester to London is a regulated flow and the Any Permitted Off-Peak Return is the regulated ticket in this case. Regulated tickets may not have evening restrictions upon travel outside the 'ring' of Reading, Watford Junction etc. VTWC use restriction 2C to reflect this.

Virtually all TISes will correctly offer you an Off-Peak Return for Manchester-Milton Keynes in conjunction with any evening 'peak' train. Since this is exactly the same restriction code as the ticket to London Euston it is evident that the intention is to disallow boarding at Euston during the evening 'peak', but not at Milton Keynes Central.

As much as VTWC would love to 'fix' this 'loophole', fares regulation and their franchise agreement prevents them from doing so. They got in trouble when they tried it on a few years ago and they corrected it.

Any passenger who, in these circumstances, was incorrectly made to pay an excess to the Anytime Return, or the cost of a new Anytime Single would have a strong claim for breach of contract. VTWC would be very silly indeed not to immediately refund and apologise if this occurred, since the DfT may not take kindly to them breaching fares regulation and their franchise agreement.

 

[OwlMan]

A Manchester to Milton Keynes return off peak ticket has no afternoon restriction from MKC as it is a regulated ticket.
A Manchester to London Ticket does have an afternoon restriction and would not be valid for return during the restricted period.
Any ticket always retains the restrictions of that ticket even if you break your journey.

Regulated ticket rules apply to the origin/destination of the ticket not to where you board the train

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A Manchester to Milton Keynes return off peak ticket has no afternoon restriction from MKC as it is a regulated ticket.
A Manchester to London Ticket does have an afternoon restriction and would not be valid for return during the restricted period.
Any ticket always retains the restrictions of that ticket even if you break your journey.

Regulated ticket rules apply to the origin/destination of the ticket not to where you board the train

It seems an absurd proposition to me that two tickets with the same restriction code can have a differing validity from the same station, merely because of their origin/destination!

In the case of a limited number of restriction codes (GWR seem fans of this in particular) it is understandable, since restrictions are from specific stations only and with a 'disclaimer' that the restrictions do not apply for connecting into those stations' services. However there is no such issue here.

Evening peak restrictions simply don't apply northbound from MKC on the tickets in question. But to avoid any doubt or potential problems, and to save some money (at the expense of being able to choose from fewer trains), you could split at MKC.

 

[jkdd77]

Regulated ticket rules apply to the origin/destination of the ticket not to where you board the train

Presuming you are referring to fares regulation, I was advised the opposite by the DfT (albeit with the caveat that they told me that this was a opinion rather than a definitive statement of law), which is why some GWR (regulated ex-SVR) SSR restriction codes permit travel from Reading after 19:00 even when the train departed Paddington before 19:00 (such that it is barred for passengers boarding at Paddington but permitted for those boarding at Reading).

In any case, I would argue that the logical intention of the restriction code, when read as a whole, is clearly to permit journeys from Milton Keynes after 09:51, and that this interpretation is supported by online journey planners. Logically, where a journey is made from Milton Keynes, the stated restrictions from Milton Keynes should apply, to the exclusion of restrictions from other stations unless it is made expressly clear to the contrary.

Insofar as ambiguity exists, the Consumer Rights Act suggests that the more favourable interpretation should prevail.

 

[Hadders]

A Manchester to Milton Keynes return off peak ticket has no afternoon restriction from MKC as it is a regulated ticket.
A Manchester to London Ticket does have an afternoon restriction and would not be valid for return during the restricted period.
Any ticket always retains the restrictions of that ticket even if you break your journey.

Regulated ticket rules apply to the origin/destination of the ticket not to where you board the train

I agree with this. Otherwise restriction codes could change multiple times if you decided to break your journey en-route.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

the Consumer Rights Act suggests that the more favourable interpretation should prevail

More favourable to the consumer, that is! Some TOCs prefer to interpret it as whatever is more favourable to their coffers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with this. Otherwise restriction codes could change multiple times if you decided to break your journey en-route.

It's the same cack-handedly worded restriction from both. Indeed, the wording is "trains departing from" which would technically mean the EUS restrictions apply to MKC, though clearly they actually don't.

 

[Haywain]

It's the same cack-handedly worded restriction from both. Indeed, the wording is "trains departing from" which would technically mean the EUS restrictions apply to MKC, though clearly they actually don't.

The Euston restrictions may not apply to a Milton Keynes ticket but they do apply to a London Terminals ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The Euston restrictions may not apply to a Milton Keynes ticket but they do apply to a London Terminals ticket.

I find it hard to believe that this can be true. Restriction code 2C's text doesn't refer to the ticketed origin or destination anywhere. If you are departing from a station then you must check what the restrictions from said station are. Checking what the restrictions upon previous stations are is ludicrous and that is why journey planners are not required to do so.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's the same cack-handedly worded restriction from both. Indeed, the wording is "trains departing from" which would technically mean the EUS restrictions apply to MKC, though clearly they actually don't.

As I said in another thread recently, I would argue that, read literally, the restrictions on departing Euston still apply even on a ticket to Milton Keynes. Restriction 2C is a bodge job in my opinion; Virgin should have moved the Milton Keynes fare to a different restriction code after they were shown to be non-compilant with fares regulation. I don't think 2C is a very good example of a restriction code to be generalising other rules from!

 

[Hadders]

I find it hard to believe that this can be true. Restriction code 2C's text doesn't refer to the ticketed origin or destination anywhere. If you are departing from a station then you must check what the restrictions from said station are. Checking what the restrictions upon previous stations are is ludicrous and that is why journey planners are not required to do so.

My view is that if you have a London Terminals - Manchester ticket then they are the restrictions that apply. You can't suddenly say that Milton Keynes - Manchester restrictions apply to certain parts of the journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Maybe I should try it out and take it to Court if I'm excessed, to have the matter adjudicated!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Maybe I should try it out and take it to Court if I'm excessed, to have the matter adjudicated!

Good luck with that... nothing like this ever goes to court.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Good luck with that... nothing like this ever goes to court.

It would be a fun exercise. In fact, if I had the money to throw around, I'd consider getting a declaratory judgment to decide either way - before I actually make the journey.

 

[PeterC]

As a layman when it comes to ticketing I must say that both arguements make sense which suggests a fundamental flaw in the way that the restrictions are defined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a layman when it comes to ticketing I must say that both arguements make sense which suggests a fundamental flaw in the way that the restrictions are defined.

With regard to evening restrictions there is no anomaly-free way of defining them - I have tried to work one out! The only way to avoid it is to abolish off peak walk up fares with everything as Advances and walk-ups as Anytime only.

Even if you say a train departing Euston at 1800 is peak throughout doesn't work - it would be ridiculous to suggest you needed an Anytime to use that train from Carlisle to Glasgow some 3+ hours later when it's half empty.