Breaking a journey at Old Street

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by north, 17 Nov 2011.

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  1. north

    north Member

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    I sometimes buy an Anytime Single from Stevenage to St Albans routed +Any Permitted (and so valid via LONDON) and wish to break my journey at Old Street. As far as I an concerned I am on a valid route (Stevenage to London is mapped on EE and includes the route to Moorgate) and an Anytime single clearly allows BoJ.

    I have, however, had problems at the Old St gateline - the last time was a bit of a classic ("I have travelled on a NR service with a NR ticket and I wish to break my journey" met with "No sir - a break of journey is when, for instance you get the underground from, say, Victoria to Kings Cross on this ticket" What? I was eventually allowed out but told that "I wouldn't be able to get back in")

    Anyway, I was looking for some documentary evidence to demonstrate that I could indeed break my journey - I'm probably just going to print out the Anytime restrictions from the NR website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/anytime_conditions.html).

    However whilst perusing the NRCoC I noticed in Rule 16:

    Now, I suspect this is meant to prevent BoJ whilst on an LU service but Old St is managed by LU so it is an LU station (unlike Finsbury Park which is two stations – LU and NR). My ticket DOES entitle me to travel on the London Underground as it has a Maltese cross on it. A strict interpretation of this rule might mean that I can't break my journey at Old Street.

    What do people think?
     
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  3. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Makes no difference. You travelled on NR and are not on the "cross-London interchange" part of your ticket. You are entitled to the BoJ as per NRCoC.
     
  4. trc666

    trc666 Member

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    I can't see why there should be a problem breaking your journey as it is also a National Rail station seeing as FCC trains call there, despite being managed by London Underground.
     
  5. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    I'm not 100% sure your route is 'legal'.

    There is the concession to allow Eastern Region passengers to travel on the tube from Kings Cross to Moorgate (via Angel or Farringdon - but not to break at Angel Farringdon or Barbican - Old Street okay). Note this is NOT for midland passengers. It is intended to get passengers from Herts (etc) to Moorgate, not to get them to Kings Cross after a trip down from Drayton Park.

    As you know, you can't double back on your route

    I don't understand why this ticket has the Maltese Cross on it, though if it has (and doesn't just say route London) then you are of course entitled to a journey on the tube or thameslink to cross London.

    Presumably your route is Stevenage Fins Pk Old Street (break) Old Street KX-SP, SP low level St Albans?

    Do appreciate that all non-Intercity gatelines in the London area are set up to focus on fare dodging, not to give good customer service to the minority of people wanting to break their journey at a place where this is 'strange'.

    If the ticket does have maltese cross then you are okay doing your proposed route I think, but not if it doesn't.
     
  6. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I am absolutely convinced that the route is permitted. The National Fares Manual NFM 10 CD shows that there are two sets of tickets sold for a Stevenage - St Albans journey, route HATFLD/ALBNS BUS and a more expensive route +ANY PERMITTED.

    The National Routeing Guide's Routeing Point (RP) Identifier shows that Stevenage is a RP. St Albans is associated with 3 RPs: Bedford, Watford Jn and West Hampstead Group. The fares check (NRG Instructions Step 4) shows that Watford Jn and West Hampstead Group are appropriate RPs for this journey.

    The NRG's Permitted Route Identifier shows that for Stevenage - Watford Jn the only routeing code is LONDON. For Stevenage - West Hampstead Group, routeing codes are LONDON and WA+OV.

    NRG Instructions Step 6 explain that if the Routeing Code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey.

    Stevenage - London Group has code EE. London Group - Watford Jn has codes EN and OV. London Group - West Hampstead Group has codes LB and OV.

    Therefore Permitted routes for a Stevenage - St Albans route +ANY PERMITTED ticket are:
    1. the shortest route calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable, or
    2. any route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, or
    3. the route taken by a through train from Stevenage to St Albans, when travelling by such a train (there are none in the current timetable), or
    4. travel from Stevenage by map WA to any point where that map intersects with map OV, then from that point to any station in West Hampstead Group by map OV, then from a station in West Hampstead Group to St Albans by the shortest route, or
    5. travel from Stevenage by map EE to any point on that map which appears on the List of London Tube / DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used, then from that station if necessary by Tube, DLR or inter-available National Rail by any reasonable route for a Stevenage - St Albans journey to any station on that List which also appears on map EN or map LB or map OV, then either
      • by map EN or map OV to Watford Jn then from Watford Jn to St Albans Abbey by the shortest route then from St Albans Abbey to St Albans by walking or other non-rail transport, or
      • by map LB or map OV to any station in West Hampstead Group, then from a station in West Hampstead Group to St Albans by the shortest route, or
    6. travel by any route permitted by a Stevenage - St Albans route HATFLD/ALBNS BUS ticket because the Stevenage - St Albans route +ANY PERMITTED fare is more expensive (NRG in Detail page F17 Step 7), or
    7. travel by any route permitted by an Easement, except for
    8. travel by any route prohibited by a (negative) Easement.
    In option 5, Map EE allows travel via Old Street. All Stevenage - St Albans route +ANY PERMITTED ticket types allow break(s) of the rail legs of the journey. There are limitations in breaking the transfer journey.
    But these do not apply at Old Street on the rail leg.
     
  7. Gerald Fiennes

    Gerald Fiennes Member

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    The other example of the genre is breaking a journey at Farringdon on FCC. Even with an annual NR-only season ticket, the barriers and barrier staff always decline to allow me in or our of the (LUL-controlled) station. The only LUL asset I use on these journeys is their gates: everything else (track, trains, staff) is FCC's!
     
  8. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Break of Journey will almost certainly not be programmed at Farringdon. How many journey origins and destinations do you think there'd be that can legitimately pass through Farringdon? There must be thousands of combinations...

    In the middle of next month you'll be able to use the new FCC gateline - I wouldn't necessarily expect that to work for BOJ either.
     
  9. Gerald Fiennes

    Gerald Fiennes Member

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    Thanks. Indeed there are probably are 1000s of fares that, in principle, allow BoJ at Farringdon but shouldn't the gates be programmed to allow at least a few 100 of them? The gate staff seem to think BoJ is impossible with a season.... so I presume this is something that TfL drum into them.
     
  10. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I would raise that with LU management. A season allows unlimited travel over any part of any valid route between origin and destination, no questions asked.
     
  11. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Note that the off peak return (being talked about here) is not valid for BoJ at Farringdon - recall that St Panc to Blackfriars inclusive requires the Maltese Cross (and the 'tube' BoJ rules apply).

    At least - the above was true 10 years ago. I'm happy to be corrected by those in the industry today.
     
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