Breaking a journey over multiple days

[AlterEgo]

I'm so disappointed to learn that Northern's CS has been outsourced. I've met them several times and despite having some tremendous challenges they were decent and honest people.

Outsourcing customer relations is rarely a good idea.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Back in June, I e-mailed Northern about an guards marking tickets and their knowledge regarding multiple overnight breaks of journey:

User Feedback: Yesterday I was travelling on a Northern service using the return portion of an off-peak return ticket from Featherstone to Hightown. The Guard checked the ticket between Rotherham and Meadowhall, wrote the current date on the ticket and scribbled out the "valid until" date. Other Guards have done exactly the same to my tickets before. To me this implies that the ticket has no further validity beyond the date it is first used on, which is not true. The return portions of off-peak and Anytime returns are valid for one month and for multiple breaks-of-journey en-route, within that month.

User Request: Could you please tell your Guards not to scribble out the "valid until" date on tickets that still have ongoing validity. I am assuming that your Guards are aware of the one month validity of these tickets? If they want to prevent reuse of tickets then marking the ticket with the date and the name of next station call after the ticket check, would cause less confusion for passengers and for staff performing further ticket checks. For example "13/6 (used as far as) MHS". In the past I have been wrongly accused of reusing similarly marked tickets after breaking my journey overnight. Thanks for your help.

Today I got this response. So wrong, it's not even wrong. Oh dear.

Thank you for contacting Northern with regards to your journey dated 13 June 2016 and your concerns relating to ticketing.

The Conductor has noted the date and time of travel (13 June 2016), blocking out the end date of 29 June 2016, this shows that the ticket has been used on that date and is not valid on any train after the 13 June 2013. Please note you are correct in saying the ticket is valid to complete your journey on the 13 June to Featherstone.

Once again thank you for bringing this to our attention and has been noted and has been fed back for future training.

 

[AlterEgo]

Woeful.

There are no other words.

 

[gray1404]

Please can you take this complaint further to Transport Focus.

 

[roversfan2001]

Also the way they write "this has been fed back for future training." even though they have replied saying nothing wrong has occurred (therefore the training doesn't need changing in their opinion). :roll:

 

[miami]

When a passenger makes a mistake they end up with a heavy fine or in court

When a TOC makes a mistake nothing happens

 

[yorkie]

Indeed.

Please can everyone affected ensure that the matter is fully logged with Northern (if it isn't already) and please refer it to Transport Focus : http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint/

I previously wrote to them about this and they clearly have not taken my comments seriously, so the matter needs to be escalated .

I also suggest contacting Barry Doe.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Back in June, I e-mailed Northern about an guards marking tickets and their knowledge regarding multiple overnight breaks of journey:



Today I got this response. So wrong, it's not even wrong. Oh dear.

Northern have contracted out the "Customer Experience Centre" to Carillion, your email will have gone to them rather than anyone at Northern. I would not expect any staff in that call centre to have the necessary training to comment on this issue.

 

[miami]

Northern have contracted out the "Customer Experience Centre" to Carillion, your email will have gone to them rather than anyone at Northern. I would not expect any staff in that call centre to have the necessary training to comment on this issue.

Yet they do comment. Outsourcing a function does not absolve the company of responsibility. If they have appointed Carillion to be their official spokespeople, then that's fine, but anything Carillion say on behalf of Northern Rail is no different to anything Northern would say. They breach their franchise agreements, and they should suffer major consequences (say about 1/300-1/400th of their gross annual income - which is how much a "penalty fake" costs the average person)

 

[gray1404]

I think that given Northern are on an on going basis, continuing to deny customers with totally valid tickets the travel they have paid for and are insisting that customers buy new tickets....thus denying them of their break of journey rights and the conditions of the Off Peak/Super Off Peak and Anytime tickets....

This is no different to customers being charged extra or being told their ticket is not valid on Gatwick Express, would it be possible to report Northern for a franchise breach and for a breach of consumer law? Yorkie perhaps you could advise on this.

I think enough is enough here and we (many of us) on here has tried for a resolution though Customer Service but it is to no avail. The recent reply from them indicates things will only get worse otherwise.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

I'm going to be making the exact same journey as I did when I started this thread again this weekend. I'm actually considering bussing the York-Leeds leg of it on my way back, simply as one less opportunity to get hassled over my "off peak return" ticket. (I have a concessionary bus pass, so it wouldn't cost me anything. Time isn't an issue on that bit of the journey, either.)

For those wondering whether or not I escalated the original issue with Northern -- no. I got as far as requesting details of their complaints procedure, which they took their time replying to (I believe they asked *why* I wanted the details!), and then life got in the way and I forgot about it. However, should I run into any problems this time I'll not be letting them off the hook again.

 

[gray1404]

I'm going to be making the exact same journey as I did when I started this thread again this weekend. I'm actually considering bussing the York-Leeds leg of it on my way back, simply as one less opportunity to get hassled over my "off peak return" ticket. (I have a concessionary bus pass, so it wouldn't cost me anything. Time isn't an issue on that bit of the journey, either.)

For those wondering whether or not I escalated the original issue with Northern -- no. I got as far as requesting details of their complaints procedure, which they took their time replying to (I believe they asked *why* I wanted the details!), and then life got in the way and I forgot about it. However, should I run into any problems this time I'll not be letting them off the hook again.

It is still not too late for you to take your complaint for Northern further. The only time "time limits" come in is for delay repay claims and refunds, which must be made within 28 days but aside from that, there is no limit. I would therefore say you can still take your complaint further or to Transport Focus at least.

Do not be put of getting the train in case you get hastle. You are in the right. Perhaps you could make the trip again and see how you get on. You have paid for the right to break your return journey over the month, so please take full advantage.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

It is still not too late for you to take your complaint for Northern further. The only time "time limits" come in is for delay repay claims and refunds, which must be made within 28 days but aside from that, there is no limit. I would therefore say you can still take your complaint further or to Transport Focus at least.

Do not be put of getting the train in case you get hastle. You are in the right. Perhaps you could make the trip again and see how you get on. You have paid for the right to break your return journey over the month, so please take full advantage.

There are no time limits for complaints? that's handy to know, thank you. I might just write it on my way up to York!

 

[gray1404]

What dates to your complaint(s) relate to exactly - be that for any new ones or existing ones that you wish to raise with Management or take to Transport Focus?

Of course if it was about something that happened over a year ago that might be a bit excessive. But within reason. I have got around to writing to TOCs as late as 6 months after the event and been all right. I have heard of delay repay, passenger charter delay and refund claims on unused tickets being rejected after 28 days but this doesn't apply to you.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

What dates to your complaint(s) relate to exactly - be that for any new ones or existing ones that you wish to raise with Management or take to Transport Focus?

Of course if it was about something that happened over a year ago that might be a bit excessive. But within reason. I have got around to writing to TOCs as late as 6 months after the event and been all right. I have heard of delay repay, passenger charter delay and refund claims on unused tickets being rejected after 28 days but this doesn't apply to you.

It was in February this year where I had to buy a ticket I didn't actually need.

Then a few weeks later I ran into 3 ToCs on the same journey, and not one of them knew the break of journey rules properly either, though in that instance they all "allowed" me to make my journey as planned. I wrote to all of those companies, and eventually did get proper replies from them all, which I was happy with.

It's the Northern reply which was annoying as it wasn't personalised, and didn't say anything at all about how they planned to stop it happening again in future. ETA: Forgot to say as well that they didn't actually issue a refund, just vouchers, but as the vouchers were worth more than the ticket, and I was able to use the vouchers, I'm not that upset about that part. I would be had I not been able to use them already for other journeys though.

 

[gray1404]

I would say that you are still fine to complain about the journey that happened in February including complaining again (if you have complained already). Yes, I would just get on and complain.

 

[bb21]

Do not be put of getting the train in case you get hastle. You are in the right. Perhaps you could make the trip again and see how you get on. You have paid for the right to break your return journey over the month, so please take full advantage.

Not everyone enjoys the prospect of hassle. Some prefer a worry-free journey rather than exercising every last right.

I would say that you are still fine to complain about the journey that happened in February including complaining again (if you have complained already). Yes, I would just get on and complain.

Time is more precious to some people than the paltry compensation and/or promises that may or may not realise.

 

[gray1404]

You've really got it in for me tonight haven't you bb21.

I stand by what I have said. The OP has a right to break their journey en route and is not doing anything wrong there. To avoid travelling by train on a valid ticket to avoid hassle is wrong in it's self if your ticket is valid. I stress, it is a fundamental principal of the return half of the SVR that you CAN break your return journey over the calendar month.

We have to stop Northern making up their own rules.

In response to the second comment, I was merely replying to the interactions between myself and the OP and feel so need to defend it further. They are still entitled to write in if they wish.

 

[MikeWh]

I stand by what I have said. The OP has a right to break their journey en route and is not doing anything wrong there. To avoid not travelling by train on a valid ticket to avoid hastle is wrong in its self if your ticket is valid. I stress, it is a fundamental princial of the return half of the SVR that you CAN break your return journey over the calendar month.

We have to stop Northern making up their own rules.

Whilst your sentiments are fine you don't seem to be able to grasp that some people want to lead as easy a life as possible. The bit in bold (apart from including two spelling errors) is just not correct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding hassle, even if that hassle is unjustified.

 

[gray1404]

Whilst your sentiments are fine you don't seem to be able to grasp that some people want to lead as easy a life as possible. The bit in bold (apart from including two spelling errors) is just not correct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with avoiding hassle, even if that hassle is unjustified.

For the record, I do totally grasp that some people want to lead as easy a life as possible. You are wrong. I have a lot of life experience and experience of many type of people. I do stand by my comments (and am happy to accept that others can hold a different view) that to avoid travelling by train on a valid ticket to avoid hassle is wrong in it's self if your ticket is valid. Not having a dig at the passenger concerned by any means, what I mean is that it is wrong they are made (by complainant staff) to feel such a way.

I really must stress we have to stop Northern making up their own rules and too many of their guards telling customers that their ticket is invalid because they can not break their return journeys over more then one day. Would anyone like to engage into a meaningful discussion of how we might realistically achieve this?

 

[yorkie]

Thise affected can contact Barry Doe and Transport Focus and it might be possible.....

Until we have an update, we are going round in circles....

 

[fandroid]

Is there some downloadable and printable piece that people could carry with them to show to errant guards who challenge passengers rights to multiple overnight stops? I once printed out Barry Doe' s Rail article in which he covered the whole issue of break of journey. As it turned out I never needed to show it to anyone, and I now feel confident enough to stand my ground if challenged. The sad thing is that Mr Doe' s website belongs in the steam age, and the opportunity has been missed for it to be used as a point of reference for issues like this one.

Having said that, I also recommend writing to him. He is fastidious in responding to all (sensible) emails and has contacts within the industry and can get points like this made where it matters.

 

[gray1404]

There is a National Rail guide to tickets which I believe covers BoJ. I assume ATOC is the publisher and most ticket offices stock it. Also, have a look at the ticket pages on the Northern site.

Do you still have a copy of Barrys article covering BoJ.

 

[crehld]

Is there some downloadable and printable piece that people could carry with them to show to errant guards who challenge passengers rights to multiple overnight stops?

The national rail conditions of carriage are your first port of call:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket
Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are
not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced
ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start,
break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.
A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or Docklands Light
Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of the stations on
these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations
after you start your journey other than to:

(i) join a train at another station, or

(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your
journey within one day, or

(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service
Company’s staff.

The terms and conditions of off-peak tickets state the following:

Break of journey
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 03457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey.
NOTE: Cross London transfers will not be accepted by London Underground during this extension period.

The terms and conditions of anytime tickets state the following:

Break of journey
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.

The National Rail Guide to Tickets (which as gray1404 points out is widely available to pick up at ticket offices) has this to say about breaking your journey when using anytime tickets:

You are allowed
to break your journey at any point, or more than once
if you wish. This means that you do not have to make
the whole of your journey at the same time or, where
allowed, on the same day.

For instance if you have an Anytime Single ticket from
London to Brighton, you could travel from London to
East Croydon, stop off and complete your journey to
Brighton later in the day.

And this to say about breaking your journey using off-peak tickets:

In most cases you may break your journey at any
point, or more than once if you wish. Where this is not
the case it will be stated in the restrictions shown for
that ticket, available at the time of purchase.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Update so far. Travelled from York to Leeds yesterday, on a Northern train -- decided against the bus in the end. Guard questioned whether my ticket was valid for BoJ, but listened to me and accepted it was, and said he'd not date the ticket. Not perfect, he should know the rules, but no real problem. Currently sat on another Northern service to Sheffield, and similar thing again with the guard, who made the additional comment that I should check with the guard before boarding my final train tomorrow.

 

[gray1404]

Clearly a massive cultural problem within the company. Please write to Northern about your experiences and take it to Transport Focus if needed. Had enough of this. Its not up to each guard to decide of their own accord if a ticket is valid. Nor should you have to be explaining yourself and why your ticket is valid.

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like your recent encounters have been with reasonable Guards (as the vast majority of Northern Guards - at least the ones I experience in the Yorkshire area - certainly are very reasonable and approachable) who applied common sense, and listened to what you had to say, despite what appears to be inadequate training in this area.

It's appears to be a much wider problem with Northern (and not a case of individual Guards making things up).

The company needs to ensure it adequately trains its staff on this issue. In order to achieve this, you'll likely need to take the matter to Transport Focus, Barry Doe and any other body/person with some influence who will listen.

In your correspondence, I would praise the staff who did listen to you, and make it clear your complaint is regarding the company's training and not with individual staff.

 

[stanpotts]

New member here, been watching the forums for some time but I've now had a need to post, so hopefully this is an appropriate place as I think I've had a similar experience:

Last Tuesday (2 August) I was travelling on the return portion of a Bingley - Bath Spa off peak return (16-25 railcard, not via London). I intended to stop overnight at Bristol, but the barriers at Bristol Temple Meads rejected my ticket. Showing it to an attendant, they wrote the date on it. Having never broken a journey overnight before, I asked if the ticket would be good for onward travel the next day, and was told this was not the case and a break of journey is not possible overnight -- the journey must be completed on the same day (which would have been impossible by that time of the evening, which I regret not mentioning). I was sure this was not the case for the return portion but the staff member was certain. It was getting late and I was in a hurry to meet someone, so in the end I relented and they sold me a 16-25 off peak single from Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads and endorsed my return ticket to explain the date written on it 'marked in error'.

I'm £4.80 down from the encounter, is it worth me complaining about it? (Providing I'm in the right with my understanding of breaks of journey).

Incidentally, the next day the two ticket inspectors on the CrossCountry route from Bristol to Leeds made no mention of yesterday's date nor looked at the endorsement on the back of the ticket.

 

[bb21]

Yes, you are £4.80 out of pocket. You have a legitimate complaint, provided that the overnight break of journey was not on the last day of validity printed on the return portion of the ticket.

 

[stanpotts]

Thanks bb21, I'll email GWR and will see if anything happens. It was the first day of validity as I had travelled down earlier the same day on the outward portion.