• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Breaking a journey over multiple days

Status
Not open for further replies.

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,475
Location
Reading
Thanks bb21, I'll email GWR and will see if anything happens. It was the first day of validity as I had travelled down earlier the same day on the outward portion.

They should be only too keen to apologise and reimburse you, so you don't escalate it for the ORR to investigate!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
I'm £4.80 down from the encounter, is it worth me complaining about it? (Providing I'm in the right with my understanding of breaks of journey).
Definitely. If you PM me the reference number (which you will get sent automatically if you contact them online) I will ensure it's looked at by someone who is very knowledgeable (and thus avoid any need for you to escalate the matter to Transport Focus and/or report the consumer law breach to the ORR ;))
Incidentally, the next day the two ticket inspectors on the CrossCountry route from Bristol to Leeds made no mention of yesterday's date nor looked at the endorsement on the back of the ticket.
That's because they are more knowledgeable than the person you encountered at the gateline; they know the date just means you started using the ticket on that date, and nothing more than that, and they know that the ticket is valid for one month.
 

stanpotts

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2016
Messages
18
Definitely. If you PM me the reference number (which you will get sent automatically if you contact them online) I will ensure it's looked at by someone who is very knowledgeable (and thus avoid any need for you to escalate the matter to Transport Focus and/or report the consumer law breach to the ORR ;))

Thanks for that, I'll PM you once I've emailed GWR.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
I'm in the middle of the return leg of a Whitwell to Manchester ticket. After boarding at Oxford road on a Norwich bound service my ticket was inspected and the start date (which is today's date) circled clearly.
I asked what it was for and he said its so you can't use it after today. I told him I intended to stop at Sheffield and finish my journey tomorrow and as expected he said i would need a new ticket. I explained that he was incorrect and he got very aggressive and told me that "I suppose the Internet knows best does it" to which I replied "yes, actually". I'm not actually intending on finishing my journey tomorrow but I felt it necessary to press him on this.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
A little.
I work in the entertainment industry and we often get collared about noise. Quite often we will be given a sensible limit which we stick to (and often keep well below) and then someone on site with zero knowledge will start throwing random figures around with no reference or other data to back it up. Often in achievable and ridiculous. It's simply a lack of understanding of the rules and in this case the theory.
In the case of break of journeys. It's really tricky to know whether to blame the person on the person on the train or the TOC. Are they ignoring the rules? Are they being told the wrong rules? Are they initially told the right rules but then colleagues are telling them otherwise? Are they doing this deliberately based on them making commission per ticket sold. Speaking of commission, one assumes that if they issue a ticket wrongly and it gets refunded by the TOC at a later date they do not have to repay the commission. This is how most parking attendants commission works. Issue a parking fine to a vehicle, if it turns out you were wrong you still get the commission so it's tempting to be strict with it as they make more money.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,164
Location
UK
Northern should be fined £80 for every mistake they make -- note that's mistake, not deliberately doing something to gain commission, which would be fraud and the person attempting to gain should end up in court.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
6,574
Location
Merseyside
I'm in the middle of the return leg of a Whitwell to Manchester ticket. After boarding at Oxford road on a Norwich bound service my ticket was inspected and the start date (which is today's date) circled clearly.
I asked what it was for and he said its so you can't use it after today. I told him I intended to stop at Sheffield and finish my journey tomorrow and as expected he said i would need a new ticket. I explained that he was incorrect and he got very aggressive and told me that "I suppose the Internet knows best does it" to which I replied "yes, actually". I'm not actually intending on finishing my journey tomorrow but I felt it necessary to press him on this.

So this is happening on EMT as well now.

I'm really sorry to hear that you were treated in such a way and spoken to in such a way.
 

sheff1

Established Member
Joined
24 Dec 2009
Messages
5,460
Location
Sheffield
Update so far. Travelled from York to Leeds yesterday, on a Northern train -- decided against the bus in the end. Guard questioned whether my ticket was valid for BoJ, but listened to me and accepted it was, and said he'd not date the ticket. Not perfect, he should know the rules, but no real problem. Currently sat on another Northern service to Sheffield, and similar thing again with the guard, who made the additional comment that I should check with the guard before boarding my final train tomorrow.

I'm in the middle of the return leg of a Whitwell to Manchester ticket. After boarding at Oxford road on a Norwich bound service my ticket was inspected and the start date (which is today's date) circled clearly.
I asked what it was for and he said its so you can't use it after today. I told him I intended to stop at Sheffield and finish my journey tomorrow and as expected he said i would need a new ticket.

Reading posts like this make me wonder why people instigate unnecessary discussions. Certainly challenge anyone who claims a ticket is not valid when it is, but I see no point in mentioning that you intend breaking your journey or asking why a guard has marked the ticket in a certain way.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I'm in the middle of the return leg of a Whitwell to Manchester ticket. After boarding at Oxford road on a Norwich bound service my ticket was inspected and the start date (which is today's date) circled clearly.
I asked what it was for and he said its so you can't use it after today. I told him I intended to stop at Sheffield and finish my journey tomorrow and as expected he said i would need a new ticket. I explained that he was incorrect and he got very aggressive and told me that "I suppose the Internet knows best does it" to which I replied "yes, actually". I'm not actually intending on finishing my journey tomorrow but I felt it necessary to press him on this.

I don't see why you felt the need to engage in such a discussion. You know your ticket would be valid the day after, so there is no issue, as far as your break of journey is concerned.

Unnecessary. Did you think that you could convince him or something similar? What were you trying to achieve?

Northern should be fined £80 for every mistake they make -- note that's mistake, not deliberately doing something to gain commission, which would be fraud and the person attempting to gain should end up in court.

This is not going to happen, no matter how loudly we shout.

Reading posts like this make me wonder why people instigate unnecessary discussions. Certainly challenge anyone who claims a ticket is not valid when it is, but I see no point in mentioning that you intend breaking your journey or asking why a guard has marked the ticket in a certain way.

Quite.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
I don't see why you felt the need to engage in such a discussion. You know your ticket would be valid the day after, so there is no issue, as far as your break of journey is concerned.

Unnecessary. Did you think that you could convince him or something similar? What were you trying to achieve?

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with a bit of "mystery shopping" as long as it doesn't cause conflict. robbeech may well know that his ticket is valid for use on the day after and could argue his case should the need arise, but that is possibly because he's a member of this forum and is thus in a tiny minority of train passengers. The rules regarding break-of-journey are not that complicated, yet railway staff continue to get them wrong and spread "fear, uncertainty and doubt", either by what they are telling passengers or by the way that they are marking tickets.

The ability to break your journey is a very useful right and something that rail travel has in its favour compared to other forms of transport. However, it is something that is not well known amongst the general public and it only takes one incident of being told "that's not allowed" to stop a passenger ever trying to exercise the right again.

No doubt there are people within the management of the railway industry who would like to see break-of-journey rights abolished altogether and to move to an airline like ticketing system. ATOC would issue a statement saying that only a tiny proportion of passengers use the break-of-journey facility and that it is being removed to "simplify" the ticketing system for the benefit of passengers. That is why I think that BoJ rights should be vigorously defended and any staff wrongly denying them, either outright or by implication, should be educated as to what the rules actually are.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
I disagree. There's nothing wrong with a bit of "mystery shopping" as long as it doesn't cause conflict.
That is true. But the best way to do this 'mystery shopping' would be to actually break journey and see what the guard says on the second day. That way you would actually have evidence that could be used in a complaint/issue to raise with the TOC if they forced you to buy a new ticket. As it stands, all that robbeech has is an anecdote about a conversation that may or may not of actually occurred.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
That is true. But the best way to do this 'mystery shopping' would be to actually break journey and see what the guard says on the second day. That way you would actually have evidence that could be used in a complaint/issue to raise with the TOC if they forced you to buy a new ticket. As it stands, all that robbeech has is an anecdote about a conversation that may or may not of actually occurred.

Of course that would be the best evidence, but making unnecessary overnight stops in random places to see what happens the next day is what I'd call extreme mystery shopping! Incidents where staff give incorrect advice such as "if you stop off in Sheffield then you'll need to buy a new ticket tomorrow" or "that's not allowed but I'll let you off this time" also need reporting.

Most passengers will assume that what they are told by staff selling or checking tickets is correct, comply, and never research the matter any further. The staff will continue to misinform passengers, who will continue to be ripped off. A few of us innocently asking "I can stop off in X and carry on tomorrow using this ticket, can't I?" might help gauge the size of the problem.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,035
Location
No longer here
I recently undertook a work trip where I needed to break overnight on two occasions on the return leg. Despite having an Anytime ticket, I was told on three separate occasions that I couldn't break the journey. Only one staff member of four got it right. And no, I never asked - two of these were at barrier lines and one on the train. The one who got it right was a ticket clerk at Newcastle who issued reservations over three separate calendar days with no quibble.

Personally it's got to the point that I really can't be bothered arguing the toss any more, or trying to educate anyone. Staff will continue to make up their own, more restrictive rules and I accept there's not much I can do about it where I'm sitting.

I'm certainly in favour of mass simplification, and the removal of many complex products. This is the only way to combat the "fear, uncertainty and doubt" referenced to upthread. It's not an enthusiast's solution, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,980
I'm certainly in favour of mass simplification, and the removal of many complex products. This is the only way to combat the "fear, uncertainty and doubt" referenced to upthread. It's not an enthusiast's solution, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

The problem with this is that there would be a huge increase in fares...
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
Incidents where staff give incorrect advice such as "if you stop off in Sheffield then you'll need to buy a new ticket tomorrow" or "that's not allowed but I'll let you off this time" also need reporting.
But unless you record the interaction, your complaint will get a polite 'thank you for letting us know' type response and then be filed in the waste basket.
 

lyndhurst25

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2010
Messages
1,406
I'm certainly in favour of mass simplification, and the removal of many complex products. This is the only way to combat the "fear, uncertainty and doubt" referenced to upthread. It's not an enthusiast's solution, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

If there is any simplification to be done because the current BoJ are too complex for staff to understand, then the few tickets with BoJ restrictions should be derestricted! Advance tickets aside, as far as I am aware BoJ restrictions only apply to the outward portion of certain off-peak returns. The only purpose of BoJ restrictions on these tickets seems to be a fudge to stop people saving money by starting short on an off-peak ticket with less draconian time restrictions e.g. using a Lancater to London ticket from Preston. A unified definition of what times are "peak" and what times are "off-peak" would get rid of these anomolies.

In any case, I wouldn't describe the current BoJ rules as being too complex for staff to learn and apply correctly. There is no excuse for the disinformation going on in the examples above.
 
Joined
23 Jan 2016
Messages
159
Reading posts like this make me wonder why people instigate unnecessary discussions. Certainly challenge anyone who claims a ticket is not valid when it is, but I see no point in mentioning that you intend breaking your journey or asking why a guard has marked the ticket in a certain way.

I mentioned BoJ in advance quite simply because the first time I ever tried BoJ overnight and didn't say anything, my original ticket was marked with the date on the second leg of a three-leg trip (see earlier posts) and then I had to buy a new ticket for my final leg because the guard on that train categorically refused to acknowledge my original ticket was still valid. I also hope that if these guards genuinely don't know the rules have changed from the older ticket types then perhaps they'll go and look up the rules themselves and learn something. Bit of a long shot I know with that! I know that I can send the surplus ticket back to the ToC and get a refund (or more likely vouchers -- another issue there) but quite honestly I'd rather not have to faff with that as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But unless you record the interaction, your complaint will get a polite 'thank you for letting us know' type response and then be filed in the waste basket.

I got a more detailed response than that when I reported gateline staff giving incorrect info over BoJ at Birmingham New St earlier this year. I can find that email and post if anyone is interested.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
Spot on Lyndhurst.

And going back to earlier posts, I also see no harm in asking what something (like a mark on a ticket) means.

It appears the problem is more widespread than I thought.

Hopefully some people reading this in pricing & revenue roles will issue reminders to their staff. I know VTEC produce an excellent "Pricing & Ticketing Update" newsletter and their staff seem more knowledgeable than most as a result of that, and perhaps other measures. The difference is especially noticed I ticket office when comparing with certain other train companies.

This has to be about informing people more than anything else.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,035
Location
No longer here
The problem with this is that there would be a huge increase in fares...

There certainly would in many cases, yes. I always say - simpler, or cheaper. Never both.

I'd still do a Beeching on ticket restrictions though - cut off everything except the most necessary. Blanket Off-Peak starts at 9am. No BoJ restrictions. All ticket types to be excessable.

I'd go a lot further than that to simplify "the ticket journey" but some of those are best left for another thread.

My starting point is that if you need specially trained staff to figure out for the passenger what the cheapest ticket it, the system is inherently wrong. It should be obvious - there should be fewer options, etc etc.

As I say - not an enthusiast's solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If there is any simplification to be done because the current BoJ are too complex for staff to understand, then the few tickets with BoJ restrictions should be derestricted! Advance tickets aside, as far as I am aware BoJ restrictions only apply to the outward portion of certain off-peak returns. The only purpose of BoJ restrictions on these tickets seems to be a fudge to stop people saving money by starting short on an off-peak ticket with less draconian time restrictions e.g. using a Lancater to London ticket from Preston. A unified definition of what times are "peak" and what times are "off-peak" would get rid of these anomolies.

In any case, I wouldn't describe the current BoJ rules as being too complex for staff to learn and apply correctly. There is no excuse for the disinformation going on in the examples above.

I agree with you. Problem is, no matter how many times you brief staff on BoJ, there's always some that make it up. Why? It's the same with any ticketing matter. The battle is lost. Burn the restrictions.
 
Last edited:

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
I disagree. There's nothing wrong with a bit of "mystery shopping" as long as it doesn't cause conflict. robbeech may well know that his ticket is valid for use on the day after and could argue his case should the need arise, but that is possibly because he's a member of this forum and is thus in a tiny minority of train passengers. The rules regarding break-of-journey are not that complicated, yet railway staff continue to get them wrong and spread "fear, uncertainty and doubt", either by what they are telling passengers or by the way that they are marking tickets.

The ability to break your journey is a very useful right and something that rail travel has in its favour compared to other forms of transport. However, it is something that is not well known amongst the general public and it only takes one incident of being told "that's not allowed" to stop a passenger ever trying to exercise the right again.

No doubt there are people within the management of the railway industry who would like to see break-of-journey rights abolished altogether and to move to an airline like ticketing system. ATOC would issue a statement saying that only a tiny proportion of passengers use the break-of-journey facility and that it is being removed to "simplify" the ticketing system for the benefit of passengers. That is why I think that BoJ rights should be vigorously defended and any staff wrongly denying them, either outright or by implication, should be educated as to what the rules actually are.

I think you have completely missed my point.

Try answering the two questions I asked the OP, and you may then start to appreciate why this whole exchange is pointless.

Did you think it's going to change the guard's understanding of the rules? What do you think will happen when he runs into another customer with a similar request?

I agree with you. Problem is, no matter how many times you brief staff on BoJ, there's always some that make it up. Why? It's the same with any ticketing matter. The battle is lost. Burn the restrictions.

Spot on. I think some people are rather lost in their own minds and not appreciating what the reality we are facing is.

This has to be about informing people more than anything else.

Informing whom? The guard? Why would he listen to a passenger? Informing other customers? Why would anyone care about a situation that almost certainly has no relevance to them? Informing TOC revenue managers? They already know in all likelihood but whether their instructions are followed on the front line is a whole different question. They can issue as many bulletins as they like but if they usually get ignored then they get ignored.

Sorry but I am in agreement with AlterEgo. The battle is lost, unfortunately. The only way to gain the upper hand is for people to join this forum and learn the specifics themselves so they can out-think unknowledgeable staff, or to massively simplify the fares system.

This isn't meant to be flippant, just genuinely interested in what anyone thinks can be achieved by such actions.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . . would it be possible to report Northern for a franchise breach and for a breach of consumer law? Yorkie perhaps you could advise on this.
You may report whatever you like, but there's no "breach of consumer law" here. The subject of this thread falls under Contract Law.

. . .

We have to stop Northern making up their own rules.

. . .
Who is this "we" ?

Please include me out of your campaign.

Please also help me understand your campaign by listing the "own rules" which the Company has 'made up' and which you claim they are not entitled to 'make'. It would also help me if you could give the dates of the decision and date of inception of each 'rule', and as much detail as you can about the executive decision to adopt the 'rule'.
I'd be so grateful, thank you.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
I originally intended to break my journey overnight but my plans changed (and had already changed by the time i asked the question).
I asked mainly because of this thread as I thought people may have been interested to know if is not limited to Northern. I don't have the time to buy new tickets and then apply (potentially unsuccessfully) for a refund, nor do most people. There are likely people that simply cannot afford to do so either especially with longer distance stuff. If you were to have a Plymouth to York return and you broke your journey at Leeds on the way back you'd have to buy another single which would be £165.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,531
It can't be the case that guards are making up the idea that break of journey isn't allowed over multiple days. It must be that this is part of the training for them. Presumably pricing managers etc are stating that break of journey is not allowed overnight even if it has always been the case that it is.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,434
Location
Yorkshire
Presumably pricing managers etc are stating that break of journey is not allowed overnight even if it has always been the case that it is.
I doubt pricing managers are saying that. But some people who are training Guards probably are...
 

maniacmartin

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,394
Location
Croydon
Please also help me understand your campaign by listing the "own rules" which the Company has 'made up' and which you claim they are not entitled to 'make'. It would also help me if you could give the dates of the decision and date of inception of each 'rule', and as much detail as you can about the executive decision to adopt the 'rule'.
I'd be so grateful, thank you.

The most obvious example is the way the 'Fixed Penalty Notices' are administered, where Northern have invented a parrelel system that is similar to, but outside of the Penalty Fare scheme and thus they sidestep requirements that would otherwise be placed on them. When pressed on the details by the DfT due to an FoI request, they replied with a report that described a process that doesn't reflect what's going on on the ground to justify their actions. There have been previous threads on this which I'm sure you have already read.

I would like to add that companies making up their own rules doesn't just happen at the top with an executive decision - I would also class numerous employees on the frontline making up rules as 'Northern making up rules'.

Perhaps if you looked at what's happening in real interactions rather than only what the companies have chosen to publicly document it might become clearer. That'd be more informative than all but accusing every forum poster of lying in many of your posts.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,877
I doubt pricing managers are saying that. But some people who are training Guards probably are...
I think it is far more likely that the subject just isn't being included in training, and that the incorrect understanding of the rules is passed on from colleagues, and not being corrected elsewhere. Peer pressure is a very strong influence, and often much stronger than training.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
Peer pressure is a very strong influence, and often much stronger than training.
Indeed. In fact it's something that learning professionals have come to recognise - look up the 70:20:10 model if you're interested in this kind of thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top