• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Breaking journey short with advance purchase at Leighton Buzzard

Status
Not open for further replies.

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but:

I have seen an extremely low-priced advance single from Worcester to London Euston via Birmingham and Northampton using London Midland only, for £7.

Really, I want to go to Leighton Buzzard, which on that same service is the last stop before Euston.

But if I search for an advance purchase ticket Worcester to Leighton Buzzard, it's about three times the price, even using the same £7 service I described above.

So, I know I'm not allowed to break my journey short on an advance purchase ticket, but:

Providing there are no ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard (can somebody confirm this please?), I'm thinking of buying that £7 advance purchase ticket from Worcester to London, and nobody will know if I get off one station before at Leighton Buzzard!

I would be doing the same thing on the return journey.

As I say, I know the ticket won't allow me to do this, but who will know? (Providing, of course, there aren't any ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard, and it seems from looking on this forum that that's the case).

Is this a good idea?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but:

I have seen an extremely low-priced advance single from Worcester to London Euston via Birmingham and Northampton using London Midland only, for £7.

Really, I want to go to Leighton Buzzard, which on that same service is the last stop before Euston.

But if I search for an advance purchase ticket Worcester to Leighton Buzzard, it's about three times the price, even using the same £7 service I described above.

So, I know I'm not allowed to break my journey short on an advance purchase ticket, but:

Providing there are no ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard (can somebody confirm this please?), I'm thinking of buying that £7 advance purchase ticket from Worcester to London, and nobody will know if I get off one station before at Leighton Buzzard!

I would be doing the same thing on the return journey.

As I say, I know the ticket won't allow me to do this, but who will know? (Providing, of course, there aren't any ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard, and it seems from looking on this forum that that's the case).

Is this a good idea?

I know Leighton Buzzard very well.

My take:

1) In general, the industry has internally been instructed not to penalise customers who finish or start short on Advance tickets unless clear fare evasion is proven. This was following the fallout from this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ailway-fine-getting-OFF-train-stop-early.html

2) Leighton Buzzard has no ticket gates anywhere on the station.

3) LBZ has irregular manned barriers with RPIs. I would say that LM's RPIs are on the whole decent and pragmatic and I would not expect a big problem even if you were "caught".

4) I would say it's pretty "safe".
 

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
I know Leighton Buzzard very well.

My take:

1) In general, the industry has internally been instructed not to penalise customers who finish or start short on Advance tickets unless clear fare evasion is proven. This was following the fallout from this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ailway-fine-getting-OFF-train-stop-early.html

2) Leighton Buzzard has no ticket gates anywhere on the station.

3) LBZ has irregular manned barriers with RPIs. I would say that LM's RPIs are on the whole decent and pragmatic and I would not expect a big problem even if you were "caught".

4) I would say it's pretty "safe".




Thanks. In my mind it's fair for me to do this and not dishonest.

All I can think may go wrong is that the guard checks all the tickets just after leaving Euston, then I get on at Leighton Buzzard and shortly after the guard comes round, checks my ticket and sees it says Euston to Worcester and he confronts me about it.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,336
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Is doing it in this case not deliberate evasion of the higher fare to LBZ?

In practice as LBZ is not barriered you most probably will get away with it, but as it is premeditated...
 

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
Is doing it in this case not deliberate evasion of the higher fare to LBZ?

In practice as LBZ is not barriered you most probably will get away with it, but as it is premeditated...

It depends how you look at it. Could not buying an advance purchase ticket also be classified as "deliberate evasion of the higher fare" compared with buying a standard ticket?
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,411
Location
Birmingham
Break of journey on advance tickets isn't officially allowed and the possible consequences if caught include having to pay an excess up to £41.30 (the cheapest ticket which would allow BoJ) or, whilst unlikely, being reported for prosecution for avoiding the proper fare to LBZ.

For what it's worth, I don't see it as particularly immoral, (I've done similar) but it would be negligent if the forum did not warn you of the potential risks, however unlikely they are to materialise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It depends how you look at it. Could not buying an advance purchase ticket also be classified as "deliberate evasion of the higher fare" compared with buying a standard ticket?
No, as the advance fare comes with different terms and conditions which form a contract to travel between the named stations only, and [presentation of the advance ticket] is a valid authority to travel.
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
Is doing it in this case not deliberate evasion of the higher fare to LBZ?

In practice as LBZ is not barriered you most probably will get away with it, but as it is premeditated...

It would be very difficult to prove, to the point that you'd just throw your papers up in the air and go down the pub. Train companies generally can't look at what was on sale at a particular historic timestamp so they wouldn't actually know if fare avoidance was going on.

Knowing the route very well I would say this is safe.
 

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
Break of journey on advance tickets isn't officially allowed and the possible consequences if caught include having to pay an excess up to £41.30 (the cheapest ticket which would allow BoJ) or, whilst unlikely, being reported for prosecution for avoiding the proper fare to LBZ.

For what it's worth, I don't see it as particularly immoral, (I've done similar) but it would be negligent if the forum did not warn you of the potential risks, however unlikely they are to materialise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, as the advance fare comes with different terms and conditions which form a contract to travel between the named stations only, and [presentation of the advance ticket] is a valid authority to travel.


That's a fair comment.
O.K. what about this - Somebody buys an advance purchase, gets taken seriously ill and has to leave the train one station early. That would be o.k. given the circumstances I suppose.

Who's to say they're not faking being ill in the hope of getting away with this -- Or what if I get a headache and break my journey one stop too early saying I'm "too ill" to continue my journey?
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
It would be very difficult to prove, to the point that you'd just throw your papers up in the air and go down the pub. Train companies generally can't look at what was on sale at a particular historic timestamp so they wouldn't actually know if fare avoidance was going on.

Knowing the route very well I would say this is safe.

Actually it'd be very easy to prove in terms of fare paid as there are no £7 fares to Leighton Buzzard, the cheapest is £9.50 (unless you are a child).
 

Kingsbury Jn.

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2010
Messages
139
Location
Kingsbury, Warwickshire
I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but:

I have seen an extremely low-priced advance single from Worcester to London Euston via Birmingham and Northampton using London Midland only, for £7.

Really, I want to go to Leighton Buzzard, which on that same service is the last stop before Euston.

But if I search for an advance purchase ticket Worcester to Leighton Buzzard, it's about three times the price, even using the same £7 service I described above.

So, I know I'm not allowed to break my journey short on an advance purchase ticket, but:

Providing there are no ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard (can somebody confirm this please?), I'm thinking of buying that £7 advance purchase ticket from Worcester to London, and nobody will know if I get off one station before at Leighton Buzzard!

I would be doing the same thing on the return journey.

As I say, I know the ticket won't allow me to do this, but who will know? (Providing, of course, there aren't any ticket barriers at Leighton Buzzard, and it seems from looking on this forum that that's the case).

Is this a good idea?

I am no fares or disputes expert but the fact that you feel the need to ask, sort of answers your own question. The choice is ultimately up to you.
 

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
So, what happens if somebody using an advance purchase ticket gets taken ill on their journey, so bad they are unable to continue their journey? Are they not allowed to get off one stop early in order to return home or get medical attention?
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
So, what happens if somebody using an advance purchase ticket gets taken ill on their journey, so bad they are unable to continue their journey? Are they not allowed to get off one stop early in order to return home or get medical attention?

I'm sure you know the answer to that. :D
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
It would be very difficult to prove, to the point that you'd just throw your papers up in the air and go down the pub. Train companies generally can't look at what was on sale at a particular historic timestamp so they wouldn't actually know if fare avoidance was going on.

Knowing the route very well I would say this is safe.

I can't believe that you are telling someone that this would be safe to do it is highly irresponsible and this sort of thing should never be allowed when giving any sort of advice.

Start writing one of your nice letters for them now when they get in bother
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
I can't believe that you are telling someone that this would be safe to do it is highly irresponsible and this sort of thing should never be allowed when giving any sort of advice.

Start writing one of your nice letters for them now when they get in bother

I beg to differ I'm afraid.

I understand and respect where you're coming from but I know the route, the station, and the culture of the TOC pretty well. (As well as knowing of some cases where the excessing up was found unfair)

I wouldn't advise the OP to do anything I wouldn't do.

If the moderators feel it's inappropriate they're welcome to remove my post, but I feel like I have a good track record in giving honest and responsible advice.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
So, what happens if somebody using an advance purchase ticket gets taken ill on their journey, so bad they are unable to continue their journey? Are they not allowed to get off one stop early in order to return home or get medical attention?

But you will probably not be violently sick.

Take onboard what people are saying and don't make life more difficult for yourself without any good reason. Acting as if you are sick is unlikely to help, whatever you decide to do.

The official line is that you are not allowed to finish short on an Advance fare, so the forum can never condone it, but the decision is yours.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
It depends how you look at it. Could not buying an advance purchase ticket also be classified as "deliberate evasion of the higher fare" compared with buying a standard ticket?
No. Of course not. Both are contracts that are offered, and you chose which to commit to.

It doesn't depend on how you look at it. It depends on the facts. Stopping short is a breach of contract. The consequences have been mentioned above. So have the probabilities of detection.
I can't believe that you are telling someone that this would be safe to do it is highly irresponsible and this sort of thing should never be allowed when giving any sort of advice.
I agree, though I have no objection to someone also giving factual advice on the probabilities of detection. But that is not to undermine the severitiy of the breach and its possible consequences, however improbable. [how often do we read reports of people who have been doing something marginally wrong for a long time and suddenly come across an ad hoc enforcement team?]
I beg to differ I'm afraid.

I understand and respect where you're coming from but I know the . . . . . . .I feel like I have a good track record in giving honest and responsible advice.
I agree, that you do have a good track record ,as you (immodestly) suggest!, and I respect your contributions. But please consider risk as having several vectors : facts, impact, cost, probability, mitigation, etc. No matter how small the risk of an adverse outcome, the potential impact of that outcome should be an influence on any decision to take that risk. I hope you agree and that we are only in dissagreement over probabilities.

Consider: the advice to a local rail users group formed of many regular commuters was to travel using a fare which is a third of the cost of the correct fare, and they publicised this in a newsletter and in posters at the local station. And word spread leading to a few hundred journeys every week at a third of the fare.

Same facts. But same risk?

I am unable to advise stopping short on an Advance ticket where the reduction in the fare represents a significant loss to the Company.
 

jednick

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2013
Messages
244
Location
Worcester
Thanks all, it's good advice. I have an additional interesting query.

This ticket in question, Worcester to Euston changing at Birmingham is available for next Tuesday at £7. A walk-up single from Worcester to Birmingham at that time of day is £8.10. Say I want to travel just to Birmingham really (and not return). I buy this £7 advance purchase ticket in question. I travel the Worcester to Birmingham part and simply not travel the Birmingham to London part, saving £1.10.

The ticket would go through the barriers at New Street with no problem and nobody's going to question why I haven't gone on the second train, nobody at all would know (in the same way if I bought any advance purchase ticket and decided not to travel on that day - nobody's going to come knocking on my door asking why I haven't travelled).

If the official answer is I've entered into a contract to travel the whole journey Worcester to London, then where would I stand if I bought that ticket and decided not to travel at all on that day? They're not going to sue me for breach of contract. And who could possibly know I hadn't travelled the Birmingham to London part? (Even the seats aren't reserved, just the train and nobody is checking up to see if I'm actually on it).

I'm not going to actually do this, just to save £1, but I am very interested to know what you all think about this theoretical question.
 
Last edited:

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
If the official answer is I've entered into a contract to travel the whole journey Worcester to London, then where would I stand if I bought that ticket and decided not to travel at all on that day?
The responsibilities under the Contract are very one-sided.

The Company commits to an obligation to convey the passenger between the two stations (and must do so even if it has no trains to do so!).

The passenger has no obligation to travel at all, just an authority to be conveyed which they can exercise or not as they choose.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,329
Location
Isle of Man
If the official answer is I've entered into a contract to travel the whole journey Worcester to London, then where would I stand if I bought that ticket and decided not to travel at all on that day?

You have bought transport from, specifically, Worcester to London, and that forms the basis of your contract.

An advance ticket does not allow a break of journey or to start or finish short, and this is reflected in the fare paid. The service you have paid for is for travel from Worcester to London, without passing go and without collecting £200. If you choose to take a break of journey or start or finish short then you have consumed a service that you have not paid for.

If you decide to stay at home watching Jeremy Kyle then you have not consumed a service that you have paid for.

Whether the conditions of the advance ticket are easily enforceable, and whether breaking the contract is detectable, have nothing to do with whether it is allowed.

As others have said, in reality it is unlikely that it will be detected. But if it is detected then it may be expensive.#

ETA it is exactly the same in the airline industry. If you stay at home you lose the fare paid, but you have no liability to the airline. but if you abandon a journey partway through (say, for instance, because fares to London Heathrow are higher than fares to Dublin via London Heathrow) then the airline are entitled to bill you for the service you consumed (i.e. to Heathrow) because it is different to the service you paid for (i.e. to Dublin).
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
ETA it is exactly the same in the airline industry. If you stay at home you lose the fare paid, but you have no liability to the airline. but if you abandon a journey partway through (say, for instance, because fares to London Heathrow are higher than fares to Dublin via London Heathrow) then the airline are entitled to bill you for the service you consumed (i.e. to Heathrow) because it is different to the service you paid for (i.e. to Dublin).

I see we have another FlyerTalker. ;)

Broadly it is the same principle, I agree. The question is about getting "caught".
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,329
Location
Isle of Man
Broadly it is the same principle, I agree. The question is about getting "caught".

It isn't permitted, whether you do it is about risk. I doubt someone doing this on the railway would be noticed if they do it at an unbarriered station or an obvious interchange. But they should be aware that if they are caught then it could be expensive.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
It isn't permitted, whether you do it is about risk. I doubt someone doing this on the railway would be noticed if they do it at an unbarriered station or an obvious interchange. But they should be aware that if they are caught then it could be expensive.

Yes, also agreed.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
I beg to differ I'm afraid.

I understand and respect where you're coming from but I know the route, the station, and the culture of the TOC pretty well. (As well as knowing of some cases where the excessing up was found unfair)

I wouldn't advise the OP to do anything I wouldn't do.

If the moderators feel it's inappropriate they're welcome to remove my post, but I feel like I have a good track record in giving honest and responsible advice.
I see we have another FlyerTalker. ;)

Broadly it is the same principle, I agree. The question is about getting "caught".

It wasnt meant as a pop at you so apologies if it came across that way and you and dave are right its all about probabilites but I would hate to see the OP come back through being caught and that whole can of worms.

I guess I just cant see it is good advice to say risk it when I would prefer people to pay for their journey as a whole no matter the price difference.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,419
Location
No longer here
It wasnt meant as a pop at you so apologies if it came across that way and you and dave are right its all about probabilites but I would hate to see the OP come back through being caught and that whole can of worms.

I guess I just cant see it is good advice to say risk it when I would prefer people to pay for their journey as a whole no matter the price difference.

No problem, no issue taken. :)
 

les.

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2014
Messages
219
Location
Great Grimsby
It's puzzling why there are situations like this. It's a very similar situation I am in when I make my yearly pilgrimage to my favourite UK village of Plockton in the Scottish Highlands.

I split my journey to get the best price but a ticket from Edinburgh to Plockton is twice the price of a ticket from Edinburgh to The Kyle Of Lochalsh, even though Plockton is two stops before Kyle. The first time I did this journey I went all the way to Kyle, looked around Kyle and had a pint and then caught the same train back to Plockton which cost about £2, but now I know that Plockton is an unmanned station I buy a ticket to Kyle but get off at Plockton.

I don't really understand how a ticket to a station further along the the line can be half the price of a ticket to a number of stations along that line.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,235
Location
Airedale
It's puzzling why there are situations like this. It's a very similar situation I am in when I make my yearly pilgrimage to my favourite UK village of Plockton in the Scottish Highlands.

I split my journey to get the best price but a ticket from Edinburgh to Plockton is twice the price of a ticket from Edinburgh to The Kyle Of Lochalsh, even though Plockton is two stops before Kyle. The first time I did this journey I went all the way to Kyle, looked around Kyle and had a pint and then caught the same train back to Plockton which cost about £2, but now I know that Plockton is an unmanned station I buy a ticket to Kyle but get off at Plockton.

I don't really understand how a ticket to a station further along the the line can be half the price of a ticket to a number of stations along that line.

Agree. No obvious reason why Scotrail don't offer the fare.
Whereas in the OPs case, there is a clear commercial reason for LM to offer a bargain London fare.
 

njr001

Member
Joined
8 Feb 2013
Messages
179
As regards stopping short, what the position be if the OP purchased in addition a Milton Keynes or Bletchley to Leighton Buzzard ticket?
 

DasLunatic

Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
696
This leads on to another question.

Say the OP alights at Leighton Buzzard to trainspot for an hour or two and then continues to Euston as per the ticket. Surely this is following the contract of the ticket, as the OP has travelled the whole distance of the contract - just with a pause mid-way through?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top