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Breaking Return leg Huddersfield to London terminals

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jim2010

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Is it possible to break a return leg of a any permitted trip from London to Huddersfield over several days at Birmingham new street ? The ticket inspector on the way up said it would be possible, but on the way back on the Manchester to Birmingham leg the inspector stated I would have to continue my journey on the same day ?

From the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

"
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use"

The return leg is valid for until 12 April 2010 so am I missing something ?
 
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pemma

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I think once the return leg is started you have to complete it either the same day or the next day, so you can start your journey from London at 11am on Tuesday, break at Birmingham so you arrive in Huddersfield at 3am on Wednesday, but can't use it to arrive in Huddersfield at mid-day on Friday.
 

jim2010

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I think once the return leg is started you have to complete it either the same day or the next day, so you can start your journey from London at 11am on Tuesday, break at Birmingham so you arrive in Huddersfield at 3am on Wednesday, but can't use it to arrive in Huddersfield at mid-day on Friday.

Hi thanks for that. Where can I find the rules governing breaking the return legs of journeys ? I have been told different by :

1) Ticketing staff in Euston - they said can break retern leg for over a day

2) Inspector on the way up - said I could break, but not sure if I mentioned for over a day

3) inspector on the way down - have to finish the journey that day.
 

mickey

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I've broken for several days before and no one's ever told me it's against the rules. As I understand it, an 'any permitted' fare allows you to break your journey as many times as you want on the return sector, as long as travel is finished by 1200 on the day after the expiry date on the ticket.
 

pemma

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I've broken for several days before and no one's ever told me it's against the rules. As I understand it, an 'any permitted' fare allows you to break your journey as many times as you want on the return sector, as long as travel is finished by 1200 on the day after the expiry date on the ticket.

On the National Rail website it says:
Where Break of Journey is available on your specific journey, if you wish to stop overnight or it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day following the last day of validity, you may continue your journey the following morning. Travel must resume before 1200, where the time restrictions that apply to the ticket should be observed and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains.

Conductors don't always examine tickets very hard and they don't always date stamp tickets, meaning it may not have been obvious that you have spilt your journey over different days.
 

jim2010

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Thanks for that! Exactly what I was looking for, Seems the guy working on the counter in Euston was wrong !

Jim Cameron
 

John @ home

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Is it possible to break a return leg of a any permitted trip from London to Huddersfield over several days at Birmingham new street?
Yes.
I think once the return leg is started you have to complete it either the same day or the next day
This advice is incorrect.
Where can I find the rules governing breaking the return legs of journeys?
On the National Fares Manual CD, which is published 3 times a year by TSO. See this. The particular break of journey restrictions for a London Terminals - Huddersfield route Any Permitted ticket are
National Fares Manual NFM 05 CD said:
ANYTIME RETURN No Restriction Applies.

THE WEEKENDER Outward Travel: Valid on date shown on ticket ONLY. Break of journey is NOT permitted.
Return Travel: Return travel is NOT permitted on the Friday. Return journeys are otherwise valid at any time within four days. Break of Journey: Return - Yes.

OFF-PEAK RETURN (SVR) and SUPER OFF-PEAK RETURN (SSR) Outward Travel: Break of Journey: (OUT) YES.
Off-Peak Singles and Super Off-Peak Singles the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns and Super Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey continues into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply (except where regarded as an unbroken continuation of the previous day's travel where the first connection of the day may be taken). No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains.
Return Travel: Break of Journey: (RETURN) YES.
Return portions of Off-Peak Return and Super Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from the outward journey). If a passenger is still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.
On the National Rail website it says:
Where Break of Journey is available on your specific journey, if you wish to stop overnight or it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day following the last day of validity, you may continue your journey the following morning. Travel must resume before 1200, where the time restrictions that apply to the ticket should be observed and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains.
Yes. But this restricts travel resuming after a break of journey on the day following the last day of validity only. It does not impose any additional restriction at any other time during the validity of the return leg of a SSR or SVR ticket. Therefore the OP is free to break the return journey as often as he chooses, and to resume it at any time until the morning of 13 April.
 

pemma

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But this restricts travel resuming after a break of journey on the day following the last day of validity only

It doesn't say that:

if you wish to stop overnight or it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day following the last day of validity, you may continue your journey the following morning

The way that is worded suggests 'the last day of validity' only applies to the 'it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day' statement.
 

A60K

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I think once the return leg is started you have to complete it either the same day or the next day, so you can start your journey from London at 11am on Tuesday, break at Birmingham so you arrive in Huddersfield at 3am on Wednesday, but can't use it to arrive in Huddersfield at mid-day on Friday.

No, I'm afraid that is not true in the slightest. You can break your return journey for as long as you want, as many times as you want, until the expiry date on the ticket.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The way that is worded suggests 'the last day of validity' only applies to the 'it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day' statement.

Have a read of the text again please - you are looking at the break of journey conditions for the OUTWARD part of the journey, and it is the RETURN part of the journey that is being discussed.

Break of journey on the return is permitted for as long and as many times as desired, as already posted by John and myself.


 

jim2010

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just to clear up (my fault initial post was confusing / incorrect)

outward portion was on Saturday London - Huddersfield (complete in 1 day)

return (on Sunday) Huddersfield to Birmginham new street.

reading above it would seem I can finish my ticket at any point until it expires (i.e. 13th of april) for b'ham to London section.

is that correct ? Sorry for causing confusion.

Jim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would just like to add that every official I asked along route gave me a different answer!! This is very annoying. I am concerned to use the final leg of my ticket from b'ham to London for fear of getting a fine from yet another inspector who dose not know the rules.
 

John @ home

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On the National Rail website it says:
if you wish to stop overnight or it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day following the last day of validity, you may continue your journey the following morning. Travel must resume before 1200, where the time restrictions that apply to the ticket should be observed and no further break of journey is allowed except to change trains.
The way that is worded suggests 'the last day of validity' only applies to the 'it is not possible to complete the journey by 0230 on the day' statement.
Travel, including break of journey, is allowed, subject to the appropriate time restrictions, throughout the validity of the ticket until the expiry date printed on the ticket. The words quoted above extend that validity in some circumstances after the expiry date printed on the ticket. They do not place any additional restrictions on travel on dates up to and including the expiry date printed on the ticket.
it would seem I can finish my ticket at any point until it expires
Agreed.
I am concerned to use the final leg of my ticket from b'ham to London for fear of getting a fine from yet another inspector who does not know the rules.
Don't worry. It is very unlikely that you will be challenged. If a ticket inspector does make a mistake, have your response prepared. Explain politely that your ticket is valid for unlimited break of journey between the "Start date" and the "Valid until" date printed on the ticket. Make sure you know exactly which train (date and time) you used for the first part of your return journey because that information may be encoded on any inspection stamp on the ticket and the inspector may legitimately ask you that to seek to ensure that the ticket is not used more than once over any part of the journey. If the inspector persists, explain politely that you checked meticulously before travel that unlimited break of journey is permitted on both legs during the validity of the ticket and ask the inspector to show you where it is written down that this is not so. If the inspector still persists, ask them to check their facts with the train company's Control. It is extremely unlikely indeed that you will ever reach this point.

If the inspector still demands payment, you have two choices. You can choose to pay up under protest and recover the money charged wrongly from the train company afterwards. If you choose this option, make sure that you find out the inspector's name before parting with any money, and write it down. Alternatively, you can insist that the inspector issues an Irregular Travel Notice, and the matter is then dealt with in correspondence at a later date. Choose the option which will cause you less stress. And if anything like this does happen, for goodness sake come back here for more advice!

Just one final point about the route you are allowed to take. You are travelling on a London - Huddersfield ticket and you must remain on a permitted route for that ticket. A London - Huddersfield ticket is valid to/from Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross or Liverpool Street. But, having gone to Birmingham, you are now limited to using Euston only. A London - Birmingham ticket would also be valid to/from Marylebone or Paddington. But, if I am reading the Routeing Guide correctly, these options are not available to you with a London - Huddersfield ticket.
 

yorkie

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Return is within 1 month. The bit about the next day refers to the day following the last day of validity. For a day ticket that is the next day. For a ticket valid for 1 month then that is for the next day after a whole calendar month has passed.

There are no Day tickets from Huddersfield to London, so the advise from jcollins saying you cannot stay in Birmingham for a few days is incorrect for this journey.

I cannot find any faults with the advice from John @ Home.
 

jim2010

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Return is within 1 month. The bit about the next day refers to the day following the last day of validity. For a day ticket that is the next day. For a ticket valid for 1 month then that is for the next day after a whole calendar month has passed.

There are no Day tickets from Huddersfield to London, so the advise from jcollins saying you cannot stay in Birmingham for a few days is incorrect for this journey.

I cannot find any faults with the advice from John @ Home.

Thanks for that I now fill more confident about travelling on my ticket now...

FYI the advice I could not brake my journey by more than one day in Birmingham was also the advice of the ticket inspector on the Manchester to B'ham train on Sunday... It is my first experience to trying to brake a ticket and it seems I get a different answer every time I ask staff on trains / at stations.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Return is within 1 month. The bit about the next day refers to the day following the last day of validity. For a day ticket that is the next day. For a ticket valid for 1 month then that is for the next day after a whole calendar month has passed.

There are no Day tickets from Huddersfield to London, so the advise from jcollins saying you cannot stay in Birmingham for a few days is incorrect for this journey.

I cannot find any faults with the advice from John @ Home.

The advice from John @ Home and Yorkie is correct. Unfortunately there is often widespread confusion amongst inspectors about this, mainly - as I have said before - due to inadequate or incorrect training and also the lack of a fares manual to refer to. All this information about break of journey is contained in the fares manual, which is not available in paper copy. Nothing is produced in paper form for on train staff to refer to, so in most cases their statements will be based on out of date information, assumptions, what bits they can remember, or mess room hearsay. None of this information is in the Avantix machine either - only restriction codes - of which there are none in this case.

My advice would be, as I have done a number of times, is to get the first inspector who marks your ticket to write " Used from X to Y only on DATE", thus making it clear further down the line what is going on.

 

jim2010

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The advice from John @ Home and Yorkie is correct. Unfortunately there is often widespread confusion amongst inspectors about this, mainly - as I have said before - due to inadequate or incorrect training and also the lack of a fares manual to refer to. All this information about break of journey is contained in the fares manual, which is not available in paper copy. Nothing is produced in paper form for on train staff to refer to, so in most cases their statements will be based on out of date information, assumptions, what bits they can remember, or mess room hearsay. None of this information is in the Avantix machine either - only restriction codes - of which there are none in this case.

My advice would be, as I have done a number of times, is to get the first inspector who marks your ticket to write " Used from X to Y only on DATE", thus making it clear further down the line what is going on.


I asked the inspector to mark the ticket on the Manchester to B'ham train to mark the ticket like that, he said this was not needed as I had to conclude my journey on that day!

p.s. the only reason I asked the inspector to do this was because the inspector on the way up advised this would be a good idea !

Jim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also is there someone I can email at national rail who would give me a response in writing in time to travel on Thursday?

Thanks Jim
 

John @ home

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is there someone I can email at national rail who would give me a response in writing in time to travel on Thursday?
Unfortunately not. National Rail is part of ATOC - the Association of Train Operating Companies, an industry trade association. I am struggling to find someone willing to communicate with me about obvious errors in the Routeing Guide.

In any other industry, a principal task of a trade association is to court specialist journalists assiduously to ensure that the industry as a whole is presented in the best possible light. The report below from the UK's premier professional rail fares journalist shows just what a pig's ear they are making of that task. Their performance at almost everything else is similar.
Barry Doe said:
the National Rail website ... has gone from being one of the best in the rail industry to one of the worst.

It's poorly designed, difficult to navigate, and it's so easy to miss features. ...

I used to be invited by ATOC to see its ideas when major changes were planned, so I had some input before changes were made. More recently I've only been shown decisions late in the day, presented as a fait accompli. Even then I had no idea of the huge scope of the recent changes. I offered my disapproval, pointing out many potential downsides, but all to no avail.

Now I'm told users are 'delighted' with the new website. I'm sorry to say this but, I don't believe a word of it.
 
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