Breaking the outward journey overnight on a off peak return?

[territt]

Hi All,

Hoping someone can help as confused on Breaking the outward Journey and want to find the best fare,

I need to go from London next Frida to Dover in the evening, then on to ramsgate the saturday morning and back to london from ramsgate sometime sunday, if i get a off-peak return will that allow me to do this without having to buy another ticket for dover to ramsgate?

 

[island]

Debatable. An off-peak return states that the outbound portion is valid only on the day of issue (or chosen start date) – though there is verbiage in the conditions about use being permitted the next day where it is necessary to break your journey overnight. I would argue this is intended for very long journeys which cannot be completed on the first day rather than breaking a journey for one's own convenience.

If making this journey myself I would get a Weekender from London to Ramsgate on the Friday and a single from Dover Priory to Ramsgate on the Saturday.

 

[Hadders]

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3. The decision on overnight break of journey is up to the passenger - there is no distance threshold (Off Peak Returns are generally only available on longer journeys) or requirement to travel as far as you can etc.

That said I wouldn't expect a hassle free journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3. The decision on overnight break of journey is up to the passenger - there is no distance threshold (Off Peak Returns are generally only available on longer journeys) or requirement to travel as far as you can etc.

That I believe is what the non-publicised industry policy officially is, but...

That said I wouldn't expect a hassle free journey.

I agree, as such I would not try it, I would only use this feature for something like a journey to the Highlands involving the Sleeper (or not involving it, with an overnight stop at Carlisle or something).

FWIW, however, unlike an Anytime ticket, it is *break* of journey that is permitted in certain circumstances. Therefore, at least *some* travel (even if only one stop along the line) must have occurred before or at 0429 on day 2. If you have, say, a Milton Keynes Central to Wick Off Peak Return outward portion, you must at least travel to Wolverton before that. You absolutely may not board at Milton Keynes Central after 0429 on day 2, as that is not break of journey, that is starting the journey.

 

[Haywain]

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3. The decision on overnight break of journey is up to the passenger - there is no distance threshold (Off Peak Returns are generally only available on longer journeys) or requirement to travel as far as you can etc.

That said I wouldn't expect a hassle free journey.

Exactly this. Hassle is highly likely, especially on a relatively short journey.

 

[gray1404]

The outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0429 on day 3. The decision on overnight break of journey is up to the passenger - there is no distance threshold (Off Peak Returns are generally only available on longer journeys) or requirement to travel as far as you can etc.

Agreed - in the strongest possible terms. Its is not only for super long journeys to the Scottish Highlands or on the sleeper a customer can break their journey.

 

[gray1404]

...at least *some* travel (even if only one stop along the line) must have occurred before or at 0429 on day 2.

Correct. It is Break of Journey - not start your journey anytime before 0429 on day 3.

I do think we have to be careful to remember what the rules say i.e. BoJ is 100% permitted on outward portion of on Off Peak Return, unless it is barred under the restriction code, and not get into personal opinion of what journeys can be broken and what can't.

As someone implied already, Off Peak Returns are only offered on longer journeys anyway.

 

[island]

That said I wouldn't expect a hassle free journey.

This is the relevant part. I don't know whether DVP has barriers but if it does, the passenger won't be allowed through with the outbound portion of an off-peak return dated the previous day, no matter what the conditions may say. If inspected, a Penalty Fare would likely be issued.

 

[gray1404]

This is the relevant part. I don't know whether DVP has barriers but if it does, the passenger won't be allowed through with the outbound portion of an off-peak return dated the previous day, no matter what the conditions may say. If inspected, a Penalty Fare would likely be issued.

In which case the PF will have to be cancelled on appeal and if the OP is refused through the barrier and has to buy a new ticket, they would be entitled to a refund.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious - that going via Dover is not a permitted route for a London to Ramsgate journey? Have I missed something?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the relevant part. I don't know whether DVP has barriers but if it does

Been a while but I *think* it does.

 

[island]

In which case the PF will have to be cancelled on appeal and if the OP is refused through the barrier and has to buy a new ticket, they would be entitled to a refund.

...after a great deal of faff, up with which the OP may not wish to put.

 

[gray1404]

...after a great deal of faff, up with which the OP may not wish to put.

Agreed. I can imagine the toing and throwing between the customer and customer relations. I would personally be more inclined to seek a refund on the original ticket from my credit card company raising a dispute that I did not get the service I paid for i.e. the contract was not fulfilled.

 

[island]

Unless the ticket cost in excess of £100, the credit card company would not be required to assist.

 

[paul1609]

Been a while but I *think* it does.

Yes it does.

 

[gray1404]

Unless the ticket cost in excess of £100, the credit card company would not be required to assist.

Yes, if you are making a Section 75 claim under the Consumer Credit Act but is it not possible to raise a Visa Dispute for transactions with a value below £100?

 

[island]

Correct; the distinction is that the issuer is obliged to deal with a S75 CCA case but is allowed to refuse to lodge a chargeback for smaller cases if it "believes the case would have a low chance of success", which is an exemption large enough to drive a coach and four through.

 

[BluePenguin]

Surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious - that going via Dover is not a permitted route for a London to Ramsgate journey? Have I missed something?

Yes it is a permitted route. Whether you choose to travel to Ramsgate via Canterbury West or via Dover Priory is optional as either is allowed. Granted, going via Dover Priory is slower although is going in the right direction.

However if the OP was travelling to say Sandwich Canterbury West or Deal, then I guess you could argue that.

Then again, now that these stations are on the high-speed services on the St Pancras circular coastal loop, all of the stations are effectively on the same route. But then following your method it would throw yo another question: would a ticket to Ramsgate be valid via Medway? The answer in this case would also be yes even though it may not be the quickest

Personally, I think that a ticket to Ramsgate is valid on any route where by Ramsgate is a station the train calls at (or terminate at in most cases!)

 

[bb21]

Yes it is a permitted route.

Can you elaborate why?

 

[sheff1]

This is the old chestnut of whether you can break your journey when the route you are taking is only valid due to the through train rule. There is no consensus on that. However, the Oct 2016 NRCoT introduced 'Information Panels', one of which may assist in this specific case:

INFORMATION: For example, where a train service makes a circular journey, you may travel either way to the destination on your ticket. However, you would not normally be allowed to get off at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher.

The implication there is that if the fare to the 'intermediate' station is not higher you can get off (aka break your journey).

As the fare from London to Dover is the same as the fare from London to Ramsgate and at least some of trains are advertised on NRES as St Pancras to St Pancras circulars, I would argue that a London to Dover ticket is valid for break of journey at Ramsgate on the return as long as you are using one of the circular trains. Certainly I would expect less hassle using such a ticket at Ramsgate compared with trying to use the outward portion of a London to Ramsgate ticket at Dover on Day 2.

 

[bb21]

The implication there is that if the fare to the 'intermediate' station is not higher you can get off (aka break your journey).

As the fare from London to Dover is the same as the fare from London to Ramsgate and at least some of trains are advertised on NRES as St Pancras to St Pancras circulars, I would argue that a London to Dover ticket is valid for break of journey at Ramsgate on the return as long as you are using one of the circular trains. Certainly I would expect less hassle using such a ticket at Ramsgate compared with trying to use the outward portion of a London to Ramsgate ticket at Dover on Day 2.

I see.

Agreed on the assessment.

 

[cizza]

Apologies to drag up an old threat but just wanted to check that the advice given above surrounding breaking an off-peak return outwards journey overnight is still the allowed.

I'm looking to travel from Northampton to Birmingham next Friday lunchtime for a work event staying overnight and then continuing down to Bristol on Saturday morning, then doing the return trip in one go on Sunday. Trainsplit gives a cost of £37.95 (with a railcard) for off-peak return splitting at Cheltenham Spa. Obviosuly the Cheltenham-Bristol ticket would have to dated from Saturday, but would I be fine doing the New Street-Cheltenham leg on the previous day's Northampton-Cheltenham ticket.

 

[island]

The rules have not changed, and nor have the potential difficulties.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Apologies to drag up an old threat but just wanted to check that the advice given above surrounding breaking an off-peak return outwards journey overnight is still the allowed.

I'm looking to travel from Northampton to Birmingham next Friday lunchtime for a work event staying overnight and then continuing down to Bristol on Saturday morning, then doing the return trip in one go on Sunday. Trainsplit gives a cost of £37.95 (with a railcard) for off-peak return splitting at Cheltenham Spa. Obviosuly the Cheltenham-Bristol ticket would have to dated from Saturday, but would I be fine doing the New Street-Cheltenham leg on the previous day's Northampton-Cheltenham ticket.

It would be perfectly permitted. If you have any difficulties using your ticket on the second day of validity I am sure the members of this section will be more than happy in assisting you recovering anything you're asked/forced to pay.