BREL Mk3 EMUs - What Next?

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Clansman

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Travelled on many a BREL unit now and again from different parts of the UK, the most travelled on being 318s and 320s. Was on one of the refurbished 318s today and I must say it was a bit of a clanker - sounds really worn out when accelerating and a problem with the waste pipe meant the toilet was locked out of use along with one of the passengers doors (different reason?). The same situation has also arised a good couple of times on Northern 150s which also seem worn out and life expired. There are around 50 BREL EMUs in Scotland just now, all of which going through refurbishment. How long were the BREL units (EMUs in particular) meant to last - it's been 30 odd years since the first one was built?
 
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swt_passenger

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I think the Roscos anticipate BR EMUs normally having a life expectancy of 35-40 years, but in one of the recent rolling stock strategy papers they said none of the fleets currently in use have a defined life:

"None of the present electric fleets has a fixed or absolute technical life, however."

They also suggest that there will be some BR units in use in 2044, which suggests a fifty year life.

Might be worth having a read of this:

http://raildeliverygroup.com/files/...m_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_3rd_ed.pdf
 

Shaw S Hunter

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There is no set lifespan for railway vehicles. In terms of multiple units diesels generally last 35 years or so with electrics generally lasting a good 40 years. The class 313 units used out of Moorgate and on the South Coastway routes are rapidly approaching their 40th birthdays and although their replacements are on the horizon a definite retirement date has yet to be set. No doubt someone will quote the expected delivery period for said replacements.

As for Scottish EMUs the oldest remaining are the 314s dating from 1979-1980. These should be replaced by the class 385s currently in build but the actual timing will likely depend on the progress with electrification works; the 314s' current routes are not top priority for the new trains but might get them first due to the intended prime routes not being wired on time.

I don't think that the Mk III based units (318 and 320) have any replacements yet lined up. The 385s main fleet role is to provide additional stock for newly electrified routes rather than direct replacement of existing vehicles.
 

Clansman

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As for Scottish EMUs the oldest remaining are the 314s dating from 1979-1980. These should be replaced by the class 385s currently in build but the actual timing will likely depend on the progress with electrification works; the 314s' current routes are not top priority for the new trains but might get them first due to the intended prime routes not being wired on time.

I don't think that the Mk III based units (318 and 320) have any replacements yet lined up. The 385s main fleet role is to provide additional stock for newly electrified routes rather than direct replacement of existing vehicles.

I can only assume that the 385s are only being put on the Cathcart Circle to offload the 314s rather than to serve as a long term fleet as you've highlighted - the 385s are a bit unsuitable for high density workings.

When the 320s and 318s do go I can only imagine it will be replaced by one Metro style train that serves al the electrified Glasgow suburban routes used by the BREL units and off load the 385s on the Cathcart Circle to be used on E-G. Hitachi's AT100 comes to mind. Scotrail will look to place an order of 66 3-car or 33 6-car sets to replace the 314(385)/318/320 on current routes - possibly more by the time other routes are electrified such as East Kilbride and Barrhead. No doubt the cast offs will go to Northern, although I'm probably 10 years too early for speculating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the Roscos anticipate BR EMUs normally having a life expectancy of 35-40 years, but in one of the recent rolling stock strategy papers they said none of the fleets currently in use have a defined life:

They also suggest that there will be some BR units in use in 2044, which suggests a fifty year life.

Might be worth having a read of this:

http://raildeliverygroup.com/files/...m_passenger_rolling_stock_strategy_3rd_ed.pdf

So judging by what is written the potential last EMUs built by BREL will probably be the 320/321/322s if they reach 50 years old by 2044 (build date circa 1990).
 
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Domh245

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The class 313 units used out of Moorgate and on the South Coastway routes are rapidly approaching their 40th birthdays and although their replacements are on the horizon a definite retirement date has yet to be set. No doubt someone will quote the expected delivery period for said replacements.

Moorgate replacement stock due from 2018

South Coastway stock doesn't have a replacement at the moment, they'll still be around at the end of this franchise period.
 

ScotGG

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I can only assume that the 385s are only being put on the Cathcart Circle to offload the 314s rather than to serve as a long term fleet as you've highlighted - the 385s are a bit unsuitable for high density workings.

When the 320s and 318s do go I can only imagine it will be replaced by one Metro style train that serves al the electrified Glasgow suburban routes used by the BREL units and off load the 385s on the Cathcart Circle to be used on E-G. Hitachi's AT100 comes to mind. Scotrail will look to place an order of 66 3-car or 33 6-car sets to replace the 314(385)/318/320 on current routes - possibly more by the time other routes are electrified such as East Kilbride and Barrhead. No doubt the cast offs will go to Northern, although I'm probably 10 years too early for speculating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So judging by what is written the potential last EMUs built by BREL will probably be the 320/321/322s if they reach 50 years old by 2044 (build date circa 1990).

BREL also built some Networkers in 1991, just before they were bought out?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Will Networker Turbos have around the same sort of lifespan as Networkers?
 

gsnedders

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When the 320s and 318s do go I can only imagine it will be replaced by one Metro style train that serves al the electrified Glasgow suburban routes used by the BREL units and off load the 385s on the Cathcart Circle to be used on E-G. Hitachi's AT100 comes to mind. Scotrail will look to place an order of 66 3-car or 33 6-car sets to replace the 314(385)/318/320 on current routes - possibly more by the time other routes are electrified such as East Kilbride and Barrhead. No doubt the cast offs will go to Northern, although I'm probably 10 years too early for speculating.

The big question is whether there's a class of 20m rolling stock ordered to replace them, or whether we go for platform extensions for 23m stock.
 

Clansman

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Just worked out the numbers:

Post 2020 the number of BREL 2nd Generation Mk3 based units is as follows:

Scotrail
Class 318: 21 x 3 Car
Class 320: 27 x 3 Car
Total: 144 carriages

Northern
Class 150: 78 x 2 Car (16 units 3-Car)
Class 319: 32 x 4 Car
Class 321: 3 x 4 Car
Class 322: 5 x 4 Car
Total: 332 carriages

Great Western Railway
Class 150: 19 x 2 Car
Total: 38 carriages

South West Trains
Class 455: 91 x 4 Car
Class 456: 24 x 2 Car
Total: 412 carriages

Wales and Borders
Class 150: 36 x 2 Car
Total: 72 carriages

Greater Anglia
Class 317: 46 x 4 Car
Class 321: 94 x 4 Car
Total: 560 carriages

London Midland
Class 319: 7 x 4 Car
Total: 28 carriages

Thameslink Railway
Class 317: 12 x 4 Car
Class 319: 59 x 4 Car
Class 321: 13 x 4 Car
Class 455: 46 x 4 Car
Total: 520 carriages

Overall: 2,106
 
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NotATrainspott

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The ScotRail BREL EMUs will probably have a longer lifespan than similar units used for London commuter services because there's not going to be any great capacity imperative to replace them. The sorts of innovations on Thameslink that required a brand new consistent fleet to be purchased (e.g. wider doors for short dwell times, reduced mass for improved acceleration and reduced track wear, etc) will end up being needed on most routes. In Glasgow, there's still quite a bit of capacity to be gained just by ensuring that every peak service is a six car set. It seems quite possible that more BREL EMUs will receive the 320/4 conversion to keep the fleet going until it finally is time to replace the lot in one big go.
 

D365

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Just worked out the numbers:

Post 2020 the number of BREL 2nd Generation Mk3 based units is as follows:

Scotrail
Class 318: 21 x 3 Car
Class 320: 27 x 3 Car
Total: 144 carriages

Northern
Class 150: 78 x 2 Car (16 units 3-Car)
Class 319: 32 x 4 Car
Class 321: 3 x 4 Car
Class 322: 5 x 4 Car
Total: 332 carriages

GWR
Class 150: 19 x 2 Car
Total: 38 carriages

Wales and Borders
Class 150: 36 x 2 Car
Total: 72 carriages

Greater Anglia
Class 317: 46 x 4 Car
Class 321: 94 x 4 Car
Total: 560 carriages

London Midland
Class 319: 7 x 4 Car
Total: 28 carriages

Thameslink & Great Northern
Class 317: 12 x 4 Car
Class 321: 13 x 4 Car
Total: 100 carriages

Overall: 1274

You're wrong on several counts here. The Northern 321/322 and the Great Northern 317/321 fleets are both currently planned to go off-lease, though Greater Anglia (under the new franchise) might take on some further 321s and/or put more of their fleet through refurbishment.
 

Clansman

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The big question is whether there's a class of 20m rolling stock ordered to replace them, or whether we go for platform extensions for 23m stock.

Looking at the specifications of Hitachi's proposed AT100 Metro stock and they are 20 metres long. I don't think there's any better suited route outside London for AT100s than on Glasgow Suburban Routes.

See Here
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Just worked out the numbers:

Post 2020 the number of BREL 2nd Generation Mk3 based units is as follows:

Scotrail
Class 318: 21 x 3 Car
Class 320: 27 x 3 Car
Total: 144 carriages

Northern
Class 150: 78 x 2 Car (16 units 3-Car)
Class 319: 32 x 4 Car
Class 321: 3 x 4 Car
Class 322: 5 x 4 Car
Total: 332 carriages

GWR
Class 150: 19 x 2 Car
Total: 38 carriages

Wales and Borders
Class 150: 36 x 2 Car
Total: 72 carriages

Greater Anglia
Class 317: 46 x 4 Car
Class 321: 94 x 4 Car
Total: 560 carriages

London Midland
Class 319: 7 x 4 Car
Total: 28 carriages

Thameslink & Great Northern
Class 317: 12 x 4 Car
Class 321: 13 x 4 Car
Total: 100 carriages

Overall: 1274

You've missed the 3 London Midland 150s, so that's 1280 vehicles in total. There's also a handful of ex-321 trailers OOU at Doncaster after being removed from what are now the 320/3s, but try as I might I can't find a use for them other than as spares, so we could say those will be the first to be withdrawn outside of accident damage.

There's also 325s but as they aren't passenger stock we should probably ignore them.
 

Clansman

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You're wrong on several counts here. The Northern 321/322 and the Great Northern 317/321 fleets are both currently planned to go off-lease, though Greater Anglia (under the new franchise) might take on some further 321s and/or put more of their fleet through refurbishment.

Confirmed though?
 

Philip Phlopp

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You've missed the 3 London Midland 150s, so that's 1280 vehicles in total. There's also a handful of ex-321 trailers OOU at Doncaster after being removed from what are now the 320/3s, but try as I might I can't find a use for them other than as spares, so we could say those will be the first to be withdrawn outside of accident damage.

There's also 325s but as they aren't passenger stock we should probably ignore them.

We ignoring all the DC stock ?

There's ~2200 Mark 3 multiple unit vehicles currently in service.
 

D365

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You've missed the 3 London Midland 150s, so that's 1280 vehicles in total.

No, they are planned to be transferred to Northern (and as such are counted under their fleet), with six 153s received to compensate.
 

Clansman

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You've missed the 3 London Midland 150s, so that's 1280 vehicles in total. There's also a handful of ex-321 trailers OOU at Doncaster after being removed from what are now the 320/3s, but try as I might I can't find a use for them other than as spares, so we could say those will be the first to be withdrawn outside of accident damage.

There's also 325s but as they aren't passenger stock we should probably ignore them.

The 150s were going to Northern aren't they not?
 

D365

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Confirmed though?

It's confirmed as far as Northern and Great Northern fleet replacement goes. GA was just speculation on my part.

And I do believe you've missed out Classes 455/456 ;)
 

61653 HTAFC

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No, they are planned to be transferred to Northern (and as such are counted under their fleet), with six 153s received to compensate.

Makes sense. I'm on a very bouncy bus so wasn't able to properly crunch the numbers. Thought they were current figures. Apologies! :oops:
 

Clansman

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It's confirmed as far as Northern and Great Northern fleet replacement goes. GA was just speculation on my part.

And I do believe you've missed out Classes 455/456 ;)

Corrected just before you highlighted ;)
 
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43074

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Just worked out the numbers:

Post 2020 the number of BREL 2nd Generation Mk3 based units is as follows:
[snip]
Overall: 1,870

It's worth saying the outcome of forthcoming franchise renewals (particularly East Anglia and South Western, to a lesser extent LM & Wales & Borders) will be critical in determining what the actual number will be, and it will largely depend on the (short & longer term) impact of the Brexit vote. A better time to do the sums will be when the rolling stock plans of both franchises are known...
 

61653 HTAFC

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Also missing the TRU, though that's probably not a bad thing.

On the assumption that that acronym is Track Recording Unit (950001), that does raise a question- If it ends up that there's a fair few 317/319/321 type units going spare in a few years, could a couple of them be of use for Network Rail as infrastructure recording units? Particularly the 319s, being dual-voltage... :idea:
 

Clansman

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It's worth saying the outcome of forthcoming franchise renewals (particularly East Anglia and South Western, to a lesser extent LM & Wales & Borders) will be critical in determining what the actual number will be, and it will largely depend on the (short & longer term) impact of the Brexit vote. A better time to do the sums will be when the rolling stock plans of both franchises are known...

Fair enough. It was just to get an idea on how many there are (around 1500ish), so it shows us how many carriages will probably be in need of replacement in the next 10-20 years.

No wonder Hitachi have chosen to invade the UK, although their proposed fleet of A-Trains look to me like a good solution for a replacement to the BREL Units.
 
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Clansman

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With the announcement that Greater Anglia are replacing all of their fleet, that leaves a good hundred odd BREL Mk3 EMUs sitting spare. Is this the beginning of the end or can we expect to see them elsewhere - if anywhere?
 

Islineclear3_1

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Just worked out the numbers:

Post 2020 the number of BREL 2nd Generation Mk3 based units is as follows:

Scotrail
Class 318: 21 x 3 Car
Class 320: 27 x 3 Car
Total: 144 carriages

Northern
Class 150: 78 x 2 Car (16 units 3-Car)
Class 319: 32 x 4 Car
Class 321: 3 x 4 Car
Class 322: 5 x 4 Car
Total: 332 carriages

Great Western Railway
Class 150: 19 x 2 Car
Total: 38 carriages

South West Trains
Class 455: 91 x 4 Car
Class 456: 24 x 2 Car
Total: 412 carriages

Wales and Borders
Class 150: 36 x 2 Car
Total: 72 carriages

Greater Anglia
Class 317: 46 x 4 Car
Class 321: 94 x 4 Car
Total: 560 carriages

London Midland
Class 319: 7 x 4 Car
Total: 28 carriages

Govia Thameslink Railway
Class 317: 12 x 4 Car
Class 321: 13 x 4 Car
Class 455: 46 x 4 Car
Total: 284 carriages

Overall: 1,870

You forgot GTR still operates about 59 x Class 319 although I think 4 are at Wolverton en route to Northern
 

43074

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With the announcement that Greater Anglia are replacing all of their fleet, that leaves a good hundred odd BREL Mk3 EMUs sitting spare. Is this the beginning of the end or can we expect to see them elsewhere - if anywhere?

I think it is the beginning of the end, because - if anything - there are almost *too* many EMUs going spare for them all to find a home within a reasonable period of them going off lease. East West Rail and MML electrification offer some opportunities for newer stock such as 360s, 379s and the Great Northern 365s, but certainly the 317s and a fair proportion of the 321s will probably be scrapped after they've finished with Anglia.

It's a pity things don't move faster in the industry, this is a golden opportunity to electrify the Chiltern Main Line, including the Snow Hill lines, with so many EMUs coming up for grabs over the next few years. You could then eliminate more or less all diesel working in/around the London area, and a good chunk of it in the West Midlands.
 

Clansman

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I think it is the beginning of the end, because - if anything - there are almost *too* many EMUs going spare for them all to find a home within a reasonable period of them going off lease. East West Rail and MML electrification offer some opportunities for newer stock such as 360s, 379s and the Great Northern 365s, but certainly the 317s and a fair proportion of the 321s will probably be scrapped after they've finished with Anglia.

It's a pity things don't move faster in the industry, this is a golden opportunity to electrify the Chiltern Main Line, including the Snow Hill lines, with so many EMUs coming up for grabs over the next few years. You could then eliminate more or less all diesel working in/around the London area, and a good chunk of it in the West Midlands.

I think it's a shame that the older EMUs going off-lease (and to scrap if not picked up) because they could potentially provide an incentive for budget style electrification works, such as the Paisley Canal Line - let alone larger networks such as the Chiltern Mainline etc. I dare suggest the non-pantograph coach from each 321 set be used to replace the PEP coaches on SWT (Or even adding on to the 456s) but I think it's fair to say that the cost of conducting such practice would not justify doing it as opposed to just keeping the PEP coaches in service along with 2 car 456s.

As old as they are getting, I do feel however, that there is still a place for some of these units around areas which need the demand. Northern and Arriva are worthy mentions, but the former has a large order of new trains coming, as well as cascades, thus effectively ruling them out. Arriva, I have no idea what's happening with anything these days - if someone's willing to share with the class. I don't want to shout out ridiculous proposals, but would the non-pantograph carriage from 321s be compatible between both 10 coaches (just curiosity if anything)?
 
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Islineclear3_1

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With the announcement that Greater Anglia are replacing all of their fleet, that leaves a good hundred odd BREL Mk3 EMUs sitting spare. Is this the beginning of the end or can we expect to see them elsewhere - if anywhere?

What is the point of the GA Class 321 refurbishments if GA are going to replace all of their fleet? Surely they will be around well into 2020 which will only make them about 30 years old...
 
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