BREL Mk3 EMUs - What Next?

[SpacePhoenix]

Probably the only EMUs on that list that is safe (at least for the moment) is the 455s. I wouldn't be surprised if SWT were long term to order more 707s to replace them and the 456s

 

[D365]

I wouldn't be surprised if SWT were long term to order more 707s to replace them and the 456s

I thought that Crossrail 2 (like with Elizabeth Line and the Class 315s) had been planned with fleet replacement in mind.

 

[Clansman]

What is the point of the GA Class 321 refurbishments if GA are going to replace all of their fleet? Surely they will be around well into 2020 which will only make them about 30 years old...

Exactly. The only benefit of this will be better short term reliability and slightly better ride quality - as long as the ironing boards keep their distance.

 

[43074]

Probably the only EMUs on that list that is safe (at least for the moment) is the 455s. I wouldn't be surprised if SWT were long term to order more 707s to replace them and the 456s

How long is long term? There's a requirement in the ITT for Metro services in the new South Western franchise to achieve 45 second dwell times in the peaks at Clapham Junction - that, the low interest rates at the moment, the emphasis on ''quality'' in new franchise bids and the need post Crossrail 2 for at least some suburban services to run to Waterloo - e.g. the Wokings and suburban services on the Windsor side aren't proposed to transfer - make me think the SWT 455s & 456s may be replaced much sooner than originally thought.

 

[Clansman]

How long is long term? There's a requirement in the ITT for Metro services in the new South Western franchise to achieve 45 second dwell times in the peaks at Clapham Junction - that, the low interest rates at the moment, the emphasis on ''quality'' in new franchise bids and the need post Crossrail 2 for at least some suburban services to run to Waterloo - e.g. the Wokings and suburban services on the Windsor side aren't proposed to transfer - make me think the SWT 455s & 456s may be replaced much sooner than originally thought.

What stopped the government (or Stagecoach) from ordering a large scale fleet of 707s to replace all the Mk3 EMUs?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What stopped the government (or Stagecoach) from ordering a large scale fleet of 707s to replace all the Mk3 EMUs?

Porterbrook offering a deal to retraction the 455s?

 

[Clansman]

Porterbrook offering a deal to retraction the 455s?

Does this workout financially cheaper in the longer term? Say, 15-20 years from now?

 

[D365]

Does this workout financially cheaper in the longer term? Say, 15-20 years from now?

Bearing in mind that Crossrail 2 could be up and running within that time, I'd say that the Class 455 retraction makes sense.

In any case the upgrade has opened up capacity at Wimbledon for the incoming Class 707s, without having to physically expand the depot.

 

[Clansman]

Bearing in mind that Crossrail 2 could be up and running within that time, I'd say that the Class 455 retraction makes sense.

In any case the upgrade has opened up capacity at Wimbledon for the incoming Class 707s, without having to physically expand the depot.

Wasn't really aware fo XR2's whereabouts till I looked it up just now. That does seem sensible to retraction the 455s. Does that open up the possibility of my question, in a curious sense rather than serious proposal?

 

[fowler9]

Are the Mk 3 EMU's actually Mk 3 based? They have ribs on the roof but are shorter and have vastly different design features. Just wondering.

 

[Domh245]

Are the Mk 3 EMU's actually Mk 3 based? They have ribs on the roof but are shorter and have vastly different design features. Just wondering.

I think it is more to do with having similar construction methods. The only Mk3 derived EMU would be the 442.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Are the Mk 3 EMU's actually Mk 3 based? They have ribs on the roof but are shorter and have vastly different design features. Just wondering.

I think they were Mk3 based on account of the extra body strength offered by the modular construction (amongst many other benefits)

Classes 317 - 322/442/455/456 and DMU Classes 210 and 150 were direct descendants of the Mk 3 design

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 455s at least have wooden non-structural framed members to keep the interior body panels in place; do any of the others or indeed the actual Mk3 carriages have this feature?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 455s at least have wooden non-structural framed members to keep the interior body panels in place; do any of the others or indeed the actual Mk3 carriages have this feature?

I thought they were of all-steel?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought they were of all-steel?

The structure is, yes. But I have been shown behind the panels on a 455 and there are wooden members there purely for holding the decorative panels in place.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The structure is, yes. But I have been shown behind the panels on a 455 and there are wooden members there purely for holding the decorative panels in place.

Perhaps another relic from the 4Subs...

 

[fowler9]

I think they were Mk3 based on account of the extra body strength offered by the modular construction (amongst many other benefits)

Classes 317 - 322/442/455/456 and DMU Classes 210 and 150 were direct descendants of the Mk 3 design

Cheers mate, I thought I read somewhere that most of the "Mk 3" multiple units in general had nothing to do with Mk 3's and shared nothing other than the roof ribs. I did think the 442's were actually Mk 3 based.

 

[Rick1984]

Some could be used to strengthen existing fleets. For example in Scotland current formations could be extended to all 6-car, more spares to increase reliability, replace 314 and use on Paisley Canal to allow the trains used there to increase the number of there class used on other lines

 

[gsnedders]

Some could be used to strengthen existing fleets. For example in Scotland current formations could be extended to all 6-car, more spares to increase reliability, replace 314 and use on Paisley Canal to allow the trains used there to increase the number of there class used on other lines

314s are being got rid of once the 385s arrive.

 

[Clansman]

314s are being got rid of once the 385s arrive.

I think it's pretty much set in stone that all the PEPs coming off-lease from their respective franchises will be sent to the scrapyard. Exception to Southern's 313s which might last a few years yet as the lone survivor.

 

[randyrippley]

The structure is, yes. But I have been shown behind the panels on a 455 and there are wooden members there purely for holding the decorative panels in place.

Surprised at that........one of the MkIII design rationales was to remove all potentially flammable materials (as a consequence of the Taunton sleeper fire). There wasn't supposed to be anything that burns in them.

 

[randyrippley]

I think it's pretty much set in stone that all the PEPs coming off-lease from their respective franchises will be sent to the scrapyard. Exception to Southern's 313s which might last a few years yet as the lone survivor.

Why? Is the structural aluminium proving to be a problem? Or is the scrap value of the metal more that the intrinsic value of the coaches?
Seems a strange decision given that the intent when these coaches were designed was to create a low-cost, low-maintenance body which didn't require painting. If all the PEP stock were stripped back to bare metal now, you'd save a fortune in ongoing paintwork. Remember the 2-car prototype was never painted and ran in bare metal finish

 

[jayiscupid]

Might there be an option to reform some Anglia 321's as 6 car 320s? If you scrap two driving trailers and reform them as:
DTSO(A)+MSO+TSO+TSO+MSO+DTSO(B)

It would give you 6 car walk-through capacity with the same performance as 2 x 3 car 320s?

With so many 321's now coming up from Anglia this might be a simple solution for extra capacity.

 

[Jonny]

I think it's pretty much set in stone that all the PEPs coming off-lease from their respective franchises will be sent to the scrapyard. Exception to Southern's 313s which might last a few years yet as the lone survivor.

I would be surprised if a certain Mr Shooter couldn't find a way to adapt and reuse them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would any of the ones on the list do for a branch line that doesn't get too much traffic and doesn't have any fast sections (nothing faster then about 60mph)?

 

[Rick1984]

I know the 385 are going on Cat cart but if you got more 321(320) you could move the new stock to more suitable services quicker.
Certainly no harm in converting a few more for a larger 320 fleet in general.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surprised at that........one of the MkIII design rationales was to remove all potentially flammable materials (as a consequence of the Taunton sleeper fire). There wasn't supposed to be anything that burns in them.

Not quite. The Taunton fire was in 1978 well after the introduction of the Mk3 design. What it did do is inform the design of the Mk3 sleeper vehicles which were still in the design phase at that time.

 

[Clansman]

I would be surprised if a certain Mr Shooter couldn't find a way to adapt and reuse them.

Viva-rail must be kicking themselves - it probably would have been cheaper to create a low cost DMU from the PEPs than the D stock surely?

EDIT: Withdrawn

 

[1179_Clee2]

Viva-rail must be kicking themselves - it probably would have been cheaper to create a low cost DMU from the PEPs than the D stock surely?

Don't make rash statements like that or someone will start a thread on Bi mode 313's or 315's.
Diesel engines and AC electric.
No thanks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this workout financially cheaper in the longer term? Say, 15-20 years from now?

The SWT 455 re-tractioning apparently wasn't particularly viable as a stand alone project, it is to a great extent an enabling project for the 707s. (As Modern Railways explained anyway.) By halving the amount of maintenance required by the 455 fleet, they can use the same Wimbledon depot facilities (and staff AIUI?) to maintain the 707 fleet.

So effectively the retractioning is a means to avoid having to build a new EMU depot for the 707s in the London area.

But we've moved on since then, as is shown in the SW franchise ITT where this dwell time requirement now seems to be superseding previous decisions, after only what, 3 years?