Brexit makes it very difficult to move to another country and get employment

[irish_rail]

Moderator note: Split from

Working abroad as a train driver

Hi, has anybody qualified in the UK as a train driver and subsequently went to become a train driver in a different European country? If yes, what steps were followed in order to complete the process and, finally, does the fact that our licences are European count for anything?

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks to Brexit I'd of thought it'd be very difficult to move to another country and get employment (other than Ireland).

 

[geoffk]

UK qualifications will no longer be accepted automatically in the EU. This would apply to teachers, doctors, nurses, chefs and a wide range of professions. Not sure whether railway work was ever included as the culture is so different in the UK.

 

[Emmsie]

Thanks to Brexit I'd of thought it'd be very difficult to move to another country and get employment (other than Ireland).

Yet somehow people manage to emigrate all over the world.

 

[irish_rail]

Yet somehow people manage to emigrate all over the world.

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

 

[EvoUK]

That would probably depends on the industry.. although I'm not sure how many of these people emigrating are train drivers?

With regards to Brexit, regardless of how you feel about it, the past several years of uncertainty did have an impact on employment opportunities within EU. Speaking as someone that previously worked in the petroleum industry, Brexit killed virtually all employment opportunities for those with sole UK nationality. Apparently employers within this sector were not happy with even considering spending time and money hiring potential employees that may not be eligible to work in their country within the near future... who would of thought it?

 

[Steam Man]

That would probably depends on the industry.. although I'm not sure how many of these people emigrating are train drivers?

With regards to Brexit, regardless of how you feel about it, the past several years of uncertainty did have an impact on employment opportunities within EU. Speaking as someone that previously worked in the petroleum industry, Brexit killed virtually all employment opportunities for those with sole UK nationality. Apparently employers within this sector were not happy with even considering spending time and money hiring potential employees that may not be eligible to work in their country within the near future... who would of thought it?

I do feel like the opportunity has taken away because of brexit

 

[Fedupnorthern]

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

We could all come to Ireland and avail of the EU scene thanks to common travel area. Or much better Middle East, Far East, Australasia. Places we are welcomed.....

 

[Fat Gaz]

Thanks to Brexit I'd of thought it'd be very difficult to move to another country and get employment (other than Ireland).

Does Brexit actually stop you from going to another country and working then?

 

[Fedupnorthern]

Does Brexit actually stop you from going to another country and working then?

No of course not. But it does limit the number of places you can move to and claim benefits in.

 

[craigybagel]

Yet somehow people manage to emigrate all over the world.

Does Brexit actually stop you from going to another country and working then?

No of course not. But it does limit the number of places you can move to and claim benefits in.

Today, British citizens can live and work freely in the European Union, exactly the same as in the UK, as long as they're qualified for the job.

From Friday onwards, they won't even be allowed to visit for more than 90 days in 180, never mind work there, without a visa. Of course these are obtainable, but not without a degree of difficulty that doesn't exist now.

Looking at it in terms that even Brexiteers might understand, and keeping it relevent to the railway - of the people without British citizenship working on the railway here, what ratio of them are EU citizens Vs those from the rest of the world? I know plenty of the former (plus I myself, whilst holding dual British citizenship, am currently only using my passport from the EU country is which I'm also a citizen) but am struggling to think of any of the latter. Granted, you'd expect fewer non EU immigrants to be working here given the greater distance, but surely also the difficult in getting work permits is a big reason behind this? And this is what people who only hold British citizenship will be facing in Europe from Friday.

 

[the sniper]

With our bellies full of sovereignty we go forth. People of the Empire, we're coming to offer you our glorious services. You're welcome.

 

[radamfi]

Move to Ireland and pick up Irish nationality after six years. For most, what other option is there?

 

[yorkie]

Can we keep this thread to the topic of whether or not Brexit makes it difficult to get jobs in other countries, please.

Thank you.

 

[WestCoast]

That would probably depends on the industry.. although I'm not sure how many of these people emigrating are train drivers?

With regards to Brexit, regardless of how you feel about it, the past several years of uncertainty did have an impact on employment opportunities within EU. Speaking as someone that previously worked in the petroleum industry, Brexit killed virtually all employment opportunities for those with sole UK nationality. Apparently employers within this sector were not happy with even considering spending time and money hiring potential employees that may not be eligible to work in their country within the near future... who would of thought it?

Purely anecdotal but I’ve heard similar things from acquaintances in other EU countries seeking work in skilled sectors, even those with newly acquired residents permits. A couple of them have recently married long term partners to establish further roots and fast track their way to citizenship.

On the other side of the coin I wonder how more casual work is going to be handled for UK citizens. The travel reps working a summer season on the Costa del Sol, the DJ who works at a club in Ibiza, the ski instructor on the Austrian Alps, the diving instructor in Greece. Most EU countries don’t really support working holiday visa type schemes like Australia nor can your employer buy you in easily as in somewhere like Dubai. I wonder how many will end up working illegally as tourists and how they’ll be sanctioned.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

Plenty of skills shortages in Eastern & Central Europe, especially in the medical field... largely due to the "brain drain" of doctors and dentists moving to Western Europe (including the UK). Somehow I don't think there's going to be a big push for those workers to move back to their home countries the day after tomorrow.

 

[PeterC]

On the other side of the coin I wonder how more casual work is going to be handled for UK citizens. The travel reps working a summer season on the Costa del Sol, the DJ who works at a club in Ibiza, the ski instructor on the Austrian Alps, the diving instructor in Greece. Most EU countries don’t really support working holiday visa type schemes like Australia nor can your employer buy you in easily as in somewhere like Dubai. I wonder how many will end up working illegally as tourists and how they’ll be sanctioned.

The entertainment industry is one area that will be seriously affected. up until today tjhe only difference between getting touring in France or Germany to touring in GB is the need to put the van on a ferry or the shuttle. From tomorrow there will be paperwork for both the performer and the venues. No big deal for bands that play stadium gigs but for more specialist genres like folk or jazz it will be a deal breaker.

 

[Clip]

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

They haven't at all , it's just they will now need a visa.

The entertainment industry is one area that will be seriously affected. No big deal for bands that play stadium gigs but for more specialist genres like folk or jazz it will be a deal breaker.

Yet jazz musicians travel the world to various festivals including those in Africa where they also need a visa to work.

 

[class ep-09]

They haven't at all , it's just they will now need a visa.

Yet jazz musicians travel the world to various festivals including those in Africa where they also need a visa to work.

I am not surprised you do not get it ....

We had a RIGHT to work / live / study in 31 other countries .

Now we may just be allowed to if we get visa .

How making things more difficult is good for anyone ?

 

[Clip]

I am not surprised you do not get it ....

We had a RIGHT to work / live / study in 31 other countries .

Now we may just be allowed to if we get visa .

How making things more difficult is good for anyone ?

I fully understand it thanks, I don't think I have said otherwise have I? Or was I merely pointing out something to the two posters I quoted?

I'm not sure where I have said that having to get a visa was good for anyone or are you just making up that I did?

 

[RT4038]

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

Yes - an entire generation has been robbed of the 'chance' to live and work in Europe. But, in practice, how many actually took up this opportunity to work in Europe (excluding jobs dealing with UK tourists in European countries) ? Comparatively few indeed, compared to those in the opposite direction of EU citizens working here. How many French or German or Italian train drivers / conductors / ticket clerks etc hold only UK passports? Virtually none I bet.

This freedom to work in other EU countries, other than in certain specific sectors, was largely theoretical for most UK citizens. It has never been easy for UK citizens to obtain 'ordinary' jobs on other EU countries, due to language considerations (self inflicted but nonetheless a significant factor), natural bias of favouring their own, and pseudo insurance schemes restricting health care and social benefits to newcomers.
Whereas the UK, with its universal language, embracing of the ideals and letter of freedom of movement, and wide open welfare and health system, encouraged other EU citizens to seek their fortune here.
I believe this imbalance, and the political will (on both sides) to deal with it, contributed to the referendum result.

How making things more difficult is good for anyone ?

I guess because making it more difficult for them to come here (the reciprocity of making it more difficult for us to go there), may mean more jobs and houses available for us here.

 

[davetheguard]

RT4038: "I guess because making it more difficult for them to come here (the reciprocity of making it more difficult for us to go there), may mean more jobs and houses available for us here."

You might be right, but that assumes that they're jobs that British people want to do. Fruit picking, potato digging anyone? No, I didn't think so.

 

[RT4038]

RT4038: "I guess because making it more difficult for them to come here (the reciprocity of making it more difficult for us to go there), may mean more jobs and houses available for us here."

You might be right, but that assumes that they're jobs that British people want to do. Fruit picking, potato digging anyone? No, I didn't think so.

If there are jobs that British people don't want to do, then visa/work permits can be issued to others for that specific job, for a specific period. Likewise if there are any jobs which Europeans don't want to do, the reverse can apply.

 

[PeterC]

They haven't at all , it's just they will now need a visa.

Yet jazz musicians travel the world to various festivals including those in Africa where they also need a visa to work.

Yes, big ticket festivals with staff to handle the paperwork. Not the Paris or Berlin equivalents of venues like Jazz Cafe or Green Note.

 

[dosxuk]

They haven't at all , it's just they will now need a visa.

Yet jazz musicians travel the world to various festivals including those in Africa where they also need a visa to work.

Musicians doing world tours are a very limited number, largely because the logistics of doing so are an utter nightmare.

Small UK bands playing at small festivals, or finding their own tour across Europe has become normal. That will almost completely stop now because the logistics of doing so will be an utter nightmare.

School choirs and orchestras regularly visit the EU, either as part of school exchange programmes or as part of civic events. This will also stop, as the logistics are now an utter nightmare.


With all the above you don't just need to worry about the visa issues, there's also the paperwork for the equipment and instruments. Many classical musicians have found they can no longer take their instruments into the EU because they're made from wood and they have no documentation to state that the wood used in the manufacturing process was clear of parasites and other things that can be carried by organic materials. No documentation means if caught it will be disposed of by staff at the border. Not great if you're playing a 100 year old violin worth millions. Orchestras have to have this documentation for every component of every instrument. Then there's the customs documentation, everything has to be recorded and tagged so you don't leave anything behind or bring anything back without paying the appropriate import / export / vat / customs duties on it. Not so bad if you're just a singer, pretty difficult if your touring 3 trucks filled with cables and equipment needed to put your show on.

All of this also applies to visitors coming in from the EU. The days of "we'll fly you in, bring your guitars and we'll provide the rest, stick you in a hotel after and fly you back the next day" will have gone. Those logistics, which were great for promoters and gig-goers as it meant diverse line ups and getting famous acts from Europe for one off shows was trivial, are no more. Once you have to start sorting visas for everyone, carnets, customs documentation and so on, along with official invites to be sent to the authorities and documentation about how the job can't be performed by a local instead (all stuff that is done for non-EU acts at present) it's just easier not to bother. Ever notice how we have a lot more European acts on British stages than we do African, Asian and even American acts? Those that do come tend to be on formal tours to recognisable venues, which behind the scenes will be promoted by the likes of live nation who have the resources to do all the leg work.

 

[Clip]

Yes, big ticket festivals with staff to handle the paperwork. Not the Paris or Berlin equivalents of venues like Jazz Cafe or Green Note.

Musicians doing world tours are a very limited number, largely because the logistics of doing so are an utter nightmare.

Small UK bands playing at small festivals, or finding their own tour across Europe has become normal. That will almost completely stop now because the logistics of doing so will be an utter nightmare.

School choirs and orchestras regularly visit the EU, either as part of school exchange programmes or as part of civic events. This will also stop, as the logistics are now an utter nightmare.

You're both missing the point that having to get a visa isn't stopping anyone from working in the EU at all.

Yes they may have to do more admin work but I reiterate it does not stop them nor anyone from working in the EU despite other posters including yourselves may think.

 

[dosxuk]

You're both missing the point that having to get a visa isn't stopping anyone from working in the EU at all.

Yes they may have to do more admin work but I reiterate it does not stop them nor anyone from working in the EU despite other posters including yourselves may think.

It absolutely will in the case of performers, from big name bands down to school choirs. To suggest otherwise is either deluded or misleading.

 

[WestCoast]

You're both missing the point that having to get a visa isn't stopping anyone from working in the EU at all.

Yes they may have to do more admin work but I reiterate it does not stop them nor anyone from working in the EU despite other posters including yourselves may think.

It won't stop anyone who is determined and has the money, time and resources but that's the point, not everyone who wants to work in the EU will have that.

Have you ever applied for a visa to work for a short period in another country? It's not just admin, it's also time and money. When I went to China on a business visit, I had to fill in a lengthy application form, visit the consulate for an in person interview on a weekday with an appointment I'd booked a week prior, then I had to give up my passport which was mailed back to me after 5 days. Cost about £220 all in, which I believe is about the same the UK charge Chinese business visits.

If you're small time performer wanting to do a couple of gigs in France or Germany there's less chance it's going to be work it. I believe you'd need two visas here which you can't get when you're already there.

 

[Clip]

It absolutely will in the case of performers, from big name bands down to school choirs. To suggest otherwise is either deluded or misleading.

Maybe you have a different understanding of the phrase 'will not stop" than I do.

It absolutely will in the case of performers, from big name bands down to school choirs. To suggest otherwise is either deluded or misleading.

Have you ever applied for a visa to work for a short period in another country? It's not just admin, it's also time and money. When I went to China on a business visit, I had to fill in a lengthy application form, visit the consulate for an in person interview on a weekday with an appointment I'd booked a week prior, then I had to give up my passport which was mailed back to me after 5 days. Cost about £220 all in, which I believe is about the same the UK charge Chinese business visits.

If you're small time performer wanting to do a couple of gigs in France or Germany there's less chance it's going to be work it. I believe you'd need two visas here which you can't get when you're already there.

That's them not wanting to do the prep work into getting a visa to work. That's totally different from claiming that leaving the EU will prevent people from working in the EU which is being claimed here.

Now I'm unsure if you can actually understand what you are reading when I post but you seem to drag all sorts of different scenarios where it's is being made more difficult to work in the EU however to repeat myself once again, leaving the EU does NOT stop people from working in the EU

Is that any clearer for you or do I have to keep repeating it until you actually understand what I have written?

 

[PeterC]

It won't stop anyone who is determined and has the money, time and resources but that's the point, not everyone who wants to work in the EU will have that.

Have you ever applied for a visa to work for a short period in another country? It's not just admin, it's also time and money. When I went to China on a business visit, I had to fill in a lengthy application form, visit the consulate for an in person interview on a weekday with an appointment I'd booked a week prior, then I had to give up my passport which was mailed back to me after 5 days. Cost about £220 all in, which I believe is about the same the UK charge Chinese business visits.

If you're small time performer wanting to do a couple of gigs in France or Germany there's less chance it's going to be work it. I believe you'd need two visas here which you can't get when you're already there.

Not worth arguing, some people just think that the music industry starts at Wembley Arena and stops at Glasto.

 

[dosxuk]

That's them not wanting to do the prep work into getting a visa to work. That's totally different from claiming that leaving the EU will prevent people from working in the EU which is being claimed here.

Now I'm unsure if you can actually understand what you are reading when I post but you seem to drag all sorts of different scenarios where it's is being made more difficult to work in the EU however to repeat myself once again, leaving the EU does NOT stop people from working in the EU

Is that any clearer for you or do I have to keep repeating it until you actually understand what I have written?

It absolutely does stop them from working in the EU when the cost or effort of doing so becomes greater than the reward.

Schools are not going to pay thousands of pounds for the relevant visas, carnets and documentation to go play for half an hour in some French town their school has twinned with, especially when it previously cost them just the coach hire and ferry ticket to do the same trip. Those people have been stopped from working in the EU.

Promoters aren't going to book that "special extra" act who just became available at last minute if they've got to get a mountain of paperwork done and spend a load of extra money on visas and documentation. They'll just pocket the money. Again, more people being stopped from working in the EU.