Brexit makes it very difficult to move to another country and get employment

[Clip]

Not worth arguing, some people just think that the music industry starts at Wembley Arena and stops at Glasto.

Who would that be then?

It absolutely does stop them from working in the EU when the cost or effort of doing so becomes greater than the reward.

No, that's the cost and reward of their own circumstances from stopping them and not everyone.

Again and I'll repeat that leaving the EU does NOT stop anyone from working in the EU.

And no one has yet proved that statement wrong.

 

[WestCoast]

Again and I'll repeat that leaving the EU does NOT stop anyone from working in the EU.

And no one has yet proved that statement wrong.

Amend that to it won't stop anyone working in the EU who applies for and is succesfully granted a visa and I don't think anyone will have an issue. The rest is just semantics.

 

[Clip]

Amend that to it won't stop anyone working in the EU who applies for and is succesfully granted a visa and I don't think anyone will have an issue. The rest is just semantics.

Which is what I actually wrote in the first place however it seems I hit a nerve and people were telling me that no one can work in the EU when we leave the EU.

 

[alex397]

Amend that to it won't stop anyone working in the EU who applies for and is succesfully granted a visa and I don't think anyone will have an issue. The rest is just semantics.

I know a few people who move around Europe teaching English. I do wonder if it will still be possible for them to do this. Especially as those people don’t actually know much German or Spanish or whatever language is spoken in the countries they go to. It is something I’d quite like to do myself too, more so than ever. But I’m not a particularly skilled person, so will probably be more difficult to do this now. However I genuinely don’t know if it will be more difficult as I haven’t researched this fully, but my instinct says this will be more difficult. I can imagine for highly skilled people, they could get a visa quite easily.

Does anyone know if people, such as those who teach English, will find it more difficult? I haven’t found out yet from my research.

 

[peters]

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages.

Indeed. Both Canada and Australia needed more qualified doctors and when junior doctors in the UK didn't like what Jeremy Hunt's plans, guess where they went, leaving us short of qualified medics and relying on immigrants to plug the gap.

 

[Clip]

I know a few people who move around Europe teaching English. I do wonder if it will still be possible for them to do this. Especially as those people don’t actually know much German or Spanish or whatever language is spoken in the countries they go to. It is something I’d quite like to do myself too, more so than ever. But I’m not a particularly skilled person, so will probably be more difficult to do this now. However I genuinely don’t know if it will be more difficult as I haven’t researched this fully, but my instinct says this will be more difficult. I can imagine for highly skilled people, they could get a visa quite easily.

Does anyone know if people, such as those who teach English, will find it more difficult? I haven’t found out yet from my research.

They should probably speak to their agency about this. Or should've done some time ago. Not sure if there's any info about it on the TEFL.org about how this works in the future but it's a good resource if you want to start learning it

 

[dosxuk]

Which is what I actually wrote in the first place however it seems I hit a nerve

That's not what you wrote in the slightest. Here's your first post in this thread:

Yes to countries like Australia with skills shortages. No such skills shortages in Europe, so the Brexiteers have robbed an entire generation of the chance to live and work in Europe.

They haven't at all , it's just they will now need a visa.

The entertainment industry is one area that will be seriously affected. No big deal for bands that play stadium gigs but for more specialist genres like folk or jazz it will be a deal breaker.

Yet jazz musicians travel the world to various festivals including those in Africa where they also need a visa to work.

You were clearly arguing (and continued to argue) that everything will remain the same, it's just there will be a bit of paperwork to do, and anyone who doesn't now work in the EU is only not doing it because they couldn't be bothered to do that paperwork. PeterC's comment was that the entertainment industry will be "seriously affected" not that it will be impossible for people in that sector to get visas.

and people were telling me that no one can work in the EU when we leave the EU.

Nice strawman you've got going there. No wonder you're finding this conversation confusing.

 

[matacaster]

If there are jobs that British people don't want to do, then visa/work permits can be issued to others for that specific job, for a specific period. Likewise if there are any jobs which Europeans don't want to do, the reverse can apply.

Off-topic, but entrepreneurial firms are developing automated machines to pick some of the crops. They didn't bother before as cheap foreign labour made it not worthwhile.

 

[Clip]

That's not what you wrote in the slightest. Here's your first post in this thread:


You were clearly arguing (and continued to argue) that everything will remain the same, it's just there will be a bit of paperwork to do, and anyone who doesn't now work in the EU is only not doing it because they couldn't be bothered to do that paperwork. PeterC's comment was that the entertainment industry will be "seriously affected" not that it will be impossible for people in that sector to get visas.


Nice strawman you've got going there. No wonder you're finding this conversation confusing.

Can you point to me exactly where I said things will remain the same please?

I've got time as don't finish work till 20:00

 

[SteveP29]

Musicians doing world tours are a very limited number, largely because the logistics of doing so are an utter nightmare.

Small UK bands playing at small festivals, or finding their own tour across Europe has become normal. That will almost completely stop now because the logistics of doing so will be an utter nightmare.

School choirs and orchestras regularly visit the EU, either as part of school exchange programmes or as part of civic events. This will also stop, as the logistics are now an utter nightmare.


With all the above you don't just need to worry about the visa issues, there's also the paperwork for the equipment and instruments. Many classical musicians have found they can no longer take their instruments into the EU because they're made from wood and they have no documentation to state that the wood used in the manufacturing process was clear of parasites and other things that can be carried by organic materials. No documentation means if caught it will be disposed of by staff at the border. Not great if you're playing a 100 year old violin worth millions. Orchestras have to have this documentation for every component of every instrument. Then there's the customs documentation, everything has to be recorded and tagged so you don't leave anything behind or bring anything back without paying the appropriate import / export / vat / customs duties on it. Not so bad if you're just a singer, pretty difficult if your touring 3 trucks filled with cables and equipment needed to put your show on.

All of this also applies to visitors coming in from the EU. The days of "we'll fly you in, bring your guitars and we'll provide the rest, stick you in a hotel after and fly you back the next day" will have gone. Those logistics, which were great for promoters and gig-goers as it meant diverse line ups and getting famous acts from Europe for one off shows was trivial, are no more. Once you have to start sorting visas for everyone, carnets, customs documentation and so on, along with official invites to be sent to the authorities and documentation about how the job can't be performed by a local instead (all stuff that is done for non-EU acts at present) it's just easier not to bother. Ever notice how we have a lot more European acts on British stages than we do African, Asian and even American acts? Those that do come tend to be on formal tours to recognisable venues, which behind the scenes will be promoted by the likes of live nation who have the resources to do all the leg work.

You're both missing the point that having to get a visa isn't stopping anyone from working in the EU at all.

Yes they may have to do more admin work but I reiterate it does not stop them nor anyone from working in the EU despite other posters including yourselves may think.

That admin work costs, visas cost.
Its not just the artist, its all the backline staff (roadies), lighting techs, electricians, truck drivers, tour bus drivers, catering, merchandising.
Every piece of equipment you bring into Europe from the UK now needs to be accounted for, right down to guitar strings, every inventory will run to hundreds of pages.
Every piece if merchandise needs to be accounted for and import duties can be charged on them as they are intended to be sold there.
If a tour goes into more than one country, then all of this administration has to be done for each country as each one has different tax laws and rates.
Its not as simple as just getting a visa to go on tour to the EU now, its thst complicated, time consuming and defensive, lots of bands will just stop touring the continent

 

[notlob.divad]

I know a few people who move around Europe teaching English. I do wonder if it will still be possible for them to do this. Especially as those people don’t actually know much German or Spanish or whatever language is spoken in the countries they go to. It is something I’d quite like to do myself too, more so than ever. But I’m not a particularly skilled person, so will probably be more difficult to do this now. However I genuinely don’t know if it will be more difficult as I haven’t researched this fully, but my instinct says this will be more difficult. I can imagine for highly skilled people, they could get a visa quite easily.

Does anyone know if people, such as those who teach English, will find it more difficult? I haven’t found out yet from my research.

I know a few people who do this. I think they will find it incredibly hard to do it in an above board and legal way. Entering on a tourist visa and taking adhoc cash in hand payments for adhoc work may still be possble. But working with professional companies and universities as I know several people do will become almost impossible, when there are plenty of English speaking Europeans who could do those jobs.

Personally I think I am going to find my job much tougher in the coming months. Based in Poland, I travel a lot around Europe (and further afield) working to program and commission installations in factories and distribution warehouses. Despite working for a Polish company where I will have residency rights, I think as soon as I cross the border, the 90 in 180 days ticker is going to start. A couple of big projects in Germany or the Czech Republic and a weeks holiday somewhere and that could use up my allowance, where as my colleagues are not going to have these problems. That will result in one of two thing, either a) I will be overlooked for project oppurtunites, or b) potentially I will end up with more of the non-european projects which tend to involve longer periods of travel and thus more time away from the family.

And that is even before we look at future job prospects and difficulties in moving to new companies.

That admin work costs, visas cost.
Its not just the artist, its all the backline staff (roadies), lighting techs, electricians, truck drivers, tour bus drivers, catering, merchandising.
Every piece of equipment you bring into Europe from the UK now needs to be accounted for, right down to guitar strings, every inventory will run to hundreds of pages.
Every piece if merchandise needs to be accounted for and import duties can be charged on them as they are intended to be sold there.
If a tour goes into more than one country, then all of this administration has to be done for each country as each one has different tax laws and rates.
Its not as simple as just getting a visa to go on tour to the EU now, its thst complicated, time consuming and defensive, lots of bands will just stop touring the continent

Quite a few of my old University freinds are in this industry. (They are my freinds because I used to be in it on a very small scale)

What is more likely to happen than the bands stopping touring, is that the band will still tour but they will do it with a European based organisation. So all the equipment, staff, truck drivers, catering and merch etc will be from Germany or somewhere. They will then either go through the processes once to get all that into the UK for that leg of the tour, or they will hire seperately in the UK. (More than likely the first). So it is much of the UK entertainments industry that will suffer. The artists and bands themselves will probably be absolutely fine to enter and perform in the EU, it is all the British based touring staff (who are suffering disproportionatly at the moment due to covid restrictions) who are going to find their lives much harder going forwards.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Just commenting on the thread title - "Brexit makes it very difficult to move to another country and get employment", wasn't that why a lot of people voted for Brexit? To stop people moving to this country to get employment? Why is there now any shock at all that the same thing also applies to people born here?

You're both missing the point that having to get a visa isn't stopping anyone from working in the EU at all.

But it does:

1. Add more faff which didn't previously exist
2. Add potentially more cost that didn't previously exist.

Both of those things may well stop acts / artists / bands touring the EU (or ones from the EU touring the UK).

 

[class ep-09]

I am trying but is so hard to reconcile with the brexit headbangers .

They did not think and listen , when told about consequences saying “project fear”, that these difficulties would arose .

As it stands EU countries nationals living / settled in UK, have hell more rights that “ indigenous “ Brits .

They can work / live / study here and in the EU .

And good for them for the amount of abuse and bad fillings towards them by the tabloids / headbangers / government ( “ citizens of nowhere “ anyone remember?)

I do not think that brexit headbangers thought that Brits will be the ones suffering the consequences of their “patriotism “ the most.

Such a shame.

 

[RT4038]

Just commenting on the thread title - "Brexit makes it very difficult to move to another country and get employment", wasn't that why a lot of people voted for Brexit? To stop people moving to this country to get employment? Why is there now any shock at all that the same thing also applies to people born here?

You way well be right, but I suspect that they didn't think too closely, or didn't care, about the consequences for others. Perhaps, in many cases, the consequences (if they thought about them at all) did not directly affect [except possibly a non too onerous tourist visa requirement] them or anyone they know, at that time. Perhaps, in fewer cases, there was anger and frustration of Eastern Europeans having taken over their town, and a desire to reverse this trend somehow.

In my view the FOM is our greatest visible loss, but I accept that there are others with other views. Its removal has caused anguish, inconvenience, hardship and loss of opportunity to lots of people, both UK citizens and foreign.

However, the refusal and/or inability of the politicians of the EU and UK to recognise and deal with the tensions caused by such concentrated mass migration within the FOM framework has rather brought this situation on. It is no good telling the good ordinary burghers of East Anglia etc that they have to suck up to their towns becoming Little Baltic in exchange for well heeled UK citizens taking over the Loire Valley and the Languedoc. On an averaging basis this may look fine in an ivory tower of an EU institution, but conditions on the ground have contributed to the pickle we find ourselves in. East Anglia voted in the referendum but the Languedoc did not.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Someone who voted for b----t was surprised the negotiations took so long
'I guess I thought it would be the sort of thing reported in a small story on page 3 of the Financial Times', he bleated

 

[class ep-09]

Someone who voted for b----t was surprised the negotiations took so long
'I guess I thought it would be the sort of thing reported in a small story on page 3 of the Financial Times', he bleated

They believed that it would be “easiest deal in history”.

 

[dosxuk]

That admin work costs, visas cost.
Its not just the artist, its all the backline staff (roadies), lighting techs, electricians, truck drivers, tour bus drivers, catering, merchandising.
Every piece of equipment you bring into Europe from the UK now needs to be accounted for, right down to guitar strings, every inventory will run to hundreds of pages.
Every piece if merchandise needs to be accounted for and import duties can be charged on them as they are intended to be sold there.
If a tour goes into more than one country, then all of this administration has to be done for each country as each one has different tax laws and rates.
Its not as simple as just getting a visa to go on tour to the EU now, its thst complicated, time consuming and defensive, lots of bands will just stop touring the continent

So it turns out the EU offer as standard 90 day working visa for performers, artists and those who work with them.

The UK-EU agreement does not include this standard arrangement. Any guesses on which side rejected it? Yup, the UK does it again - because we didn't want to reciprocate.

Details here :- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html

The UK rejected an offer of visa-free tours by musicians to EU countries, despite blaming Brussels for what the industry is calling the devastating blow of them requiring permits.

A “standard” proposal to exempt performers from the huge cost and bureaucracy for 90 days was turned down, The Independent has been told – because the government is insisting on denying that to EU artists visiting this country.

“It is usually in our agreements with third countries, that [work] visas are not required for musicians. We tried to include it, but the UK said no,” an EU source close to the negotiations said.

 

[Journeyman]

Maybe you have a different understanding of the phrase 'will not stop" than I do.



That's them not wanting to do the prep work into getting a visa to work. That's totally different from claiming that leaving the EU will prevent people from working in the EU which is being claimed here.

Now I'm unsure if you can actually understand what you are reading when I post but you seem to drag all sorts of different scenarios where it's is being made more difficult to work in the EU however to repeat myself once again, leaving the EU does NOT stop people from working in the EU

Is that any clearer for you or do I have to keep repeating it until you actually understand what I have written?

So far, Brexit has made lots of things more difficult, more complicated, more expensive, less fun, less convenient, less likely to happen, less enjoyable, more full of red tape, more hassle, and generally all-round far more hassle than it's worth for most people.

Where's my unicorn?

 

[RT4038]

So far, Brexit has made lots of things more difficult, more complicated, more expensive, less fun, less convenient, less likely to happen, less enjoyable, more full of red tape, more hassle, and generally all-round far more hassle than it's worth for most people.

Where's my unicorn?

Notwithstanding the veracity of your comment, I do not think 'most people' have noticed any of this so far. Doubt that 'most people' have been involved in any of these degraded activities since Jan 1st? Slovenian music bands visiting the UK is a pretty niche activity really.

 

[Journeyman]

Notwithstanding the veracity of your comment, I do not think 'most people' have noticed any of this so far. Doubt that 'most people' have been involved in any of these degraded activities since Jan 1st? Slovenian music bands visiting the UK is a pretty niche activity really.

Yeah, deliberately pick a very small and culturally insignificant country to minimise it. It's like the people who have said "Well, I don't want to live in Bulgaria" to make it sound perfectly acceptable to inconvenience the couple of million Brits already using their right of FoM, and deprive millions who might want to use it in future. We know not many people want to live in Bulgaria. That's not the point.

A right we had before has been taken from us, and a generous offer from the EU to allow 90-day visas for artists has been refused because our government didn't want to reciprocate.

I'll ask Brexiteers again, what's in this for me?

 

[RT4038]

Yeah, deliberately pick a very small and culturally insignificant country to minimise it. It's like the people who have said "Well, I don't want to live in Bulgaria" to make it sound perfectly acceptable to inconvenience the couple of million Brits already using their right of FoM, and deprive millions who might want to use it in future. We know not many people want to live in Bulgaria. That's not the point.

A right we had before has been taken from us, and a generous offer from the EU to allow 90-day visas for artists has been refused because our government didn't want to reciprocate.

I'll ask Brexiteers again, what's in this for me?

I am not seeking to minimise the issues, nor seeking to maximise them either. To a large number of people in this country, the adverse effects will be pretty invisible or of 'pin-prick' consequence only. It is no more perfectly acceptable to inconvenience the couple of million Brits already using their right of FoM than it is to ignore the issues being caused (in reality or in perception) to the Brits adversely affected by FoM being exercised by EU citizens to the UK. See my post #44 above.

 

[Clip]

So far, Brexit has made lots of things more difficult, more complicated, more expensive, less fun, less convenient, less likely to happen, less enjoyable, more full of red tape, more hassle, and generally all-round far more hassle than it's worth for most people.

Where's my unicorn?

But again, it has not stopped anyone from travelling to the EU. (covid restrictions aside)

 

[Journeyman]

But again, it has not stopped anyone from travelling to the EU. (covid restrictions aside)

No, it hasn't. But is it now more difficult and expensive than it was?

 

[Clip]

No, it hasn't. But is it now more difficult and expensive than it was?

I never mentioned any of that. Please go and read back to whom I first quoted then You will get a better idea where I am coming from


Thanks

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

How was it before 1973? Anyone remember? Quite a few British soldiers met German girls, married and stayed, but did many others migrate to or from the UK?

 

[RT4038]

How was it before 1973? Anyone remember? Quite a few British soldiers met German girls, married and stayed, but did many others migrate to or from the UK?

German girls married British soldiers and came to the UK, and British girls went to Germany as au pairs and married German guys, and stayed there. Participation in the 'au pair' scheme was a concession, rather than a right.

In the 1980s British guys went to work in Germany (typified in 'Auf Wiedersehn, Pet')

The (understandable) desire by Western Europe to assimilate the former communist bloc countries [prising them away from Russian influence] has completely changed the political, economic and immigration landscape - no longer are there many work opportunities in Europe for non-professional UK people (if there ever were that many). So FoM had become of largely theoretical 'advantage' to most UK citizens (unless you wish to retire to Spanish Costas or Islands or Tuscany, or you are able to do your UK job whilst living in rural France).

 

[takno]

German girls married British soldiers and came to the UK, and British girls went to Germany as au pairs and married German guys, and stayed there. Participation in the 'au pair' scheme was a concession, rather than a right.

In the 1980s British guys went to work in Germany (typified in 'Auf Wiedersehn, Pet')

The (understandable) desire by Western Europe to assimilate the former communist bloc countries [prising them away from Russian influence] has completely changed the political, economic and immigration landscape - no longer are there many work opportunities in Europe for non-professional UK people (if there ever were that many). So FoM had become of largely theoretical 'advantage' to most UK citizens (unless you wish to retire to Spanish Costas or Islands or Tuscany, or you are able to do your UK job whilst living in rural France).

I know far as many people who moved out to Europe to do unskilled work as I do skilled people or professionals. Europe is not short of work for bar staff, chefs, waiters or any number of jobs for people who want to make a life somewhere else. Even amongst the professionals, the majority of people I know headed abroad straight after (or often before) their studies, in order to get professional work which they would have struggled to find in the UK.

Skilled professionals are likely to be able to get work permits in the future. It's these unskilled or unseasoned young people who have had the most opportunities ripped away from them.

 

[class ep-09]

I know far as many people who moved out to Europe to do unskilled work as I do skilled people or professionals. Europe is not short of work for bar staff, chefs, waiters or any number of jobs for people who want to make a life somewhere else. Even amongst the professionals, the majority of people I know headed abroad straight after (or often before) their studies, in order to get professional work which they would have struggled to find in the UK.

Skilled professionals are likely to be able to get work permits in the future. It's these unskilled or unseasoned young people who have had the most opportunities ripped away from them.

Providing skilled professional’s qualifications are recognised in the EU , which are no more .
EU professionals have choice of 31 countries to work ( anytime anywhere) , UK’s list that right , sadly .

But..
we have fish that can’t be sold.

 

[A Challenge]

But..
we have fish that can’t be sold.

What worried me about that was that it implied that, before Brexit, fish wasn't normally tested for food safety before being exported, is that really the case?

 

[class ep-09]

What worried me about that was that it implied that, before Brexit, fish wasn't normally tested for food safety before being exported, is that really the case?

Fish was tested before brexit but on the basis of whole consignments / whole loads.
Now literally every crate has to be tested by approved vets and signed off.

It goes without saying that there are not enough of them (vets) , and the number of checks they have to do, would require 100’s of times more of vets to be employed, and that would cost fortune .