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Brexit matters

Xenophon PCDGS

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I cannot find an open Brexit thread on the website so have opened this one for all and sundry to use.

The House of Lords after deliberating upon the key clauses in the Internal Market Bill that has Government-approved International Law contraventions have voted by the very large margin of 433 to 135 to defeat the proposal. I wonder what the reaction will now be in the House of Commons.
 
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AM9

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There was talk yesterday that the government would just put their mechanism to break international law straight back into the bill, but mention that a large enough contingent of Conservatives would either abstain from approving it or even vote it down.
 
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Cowley

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OK. Before we head on back into the Brexit subject there’s a couple of provisos... :)

First off let’s keep it civil obviously. Because before we locked it last time it had very much become a thread that was generating many arguments and needed a lot of work from us to keep it on topic as it was often the same people arguing the same points over and over again without anyone ever conceding anything.
If it’s getting heated, take a breath and go and look at something more relaxing for a while (like the Disputes and Prosecutions section maybe).

Secondly, things have obviously moved on since we locked the last one and although many people don’t like the fact that it’s happening (although also plenty of people do), we need to pick things up from where they are now, and endlessly raking over the original decision to leave will without a doubt cause this thread to become bogged down in the same kind of arguing again.

It’s with a slight feeling of apprehension that I declare this thread ‘open’. Please play nicely!

Thanks all. ;)
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I wonder if the Johnson/Biden phone call included any discussion of the potential breaking of international law by the UK government on purely ideological grounds. Given Biden's known view of Brexit and its possible ramifications for the Good Friday Agreement I rather suspect it will have cropped up. It will be interesting to see if any of this has any effect on Johnson's actions in response to the Lords' vote.
 

najaB

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Given Biden's known view of Brexit and its possible ramifications for the Good Friday Agreement I rather suspect it will have cropped up.
I doubt it will have. In fact, I doubt that Johnson and Biden will speak about it directly for a while yet, but their staffs are more than likely making each side's position abundantly clear to their counterparts.
 

DerekC

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Well, here we are waiting breathlessly for the announcement of a deal - or not! Will Boris's trip to Brussels later this week achieve anything? The fact that this thread has languished without comment for nearly a month suggests people don't care any more. We really should, though.
 

Cowley

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Well, here we are waiting breathlessly for the announcement of a deal - or not! Will Boris's trip to Brussels later this week achieve anything? The fact that this thread has languished without comment for nearly a month suggests people don't care any more. We really should, though.
I was thinking exactly the same thing today but decided not to say anything in case anyone noticed...
 

najaB

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The fact that this thread has languished without comment for nearly a month suggests people don't care any more.
Or that people are tired of the pointless brinkmanship and want our elected leaders to just do their jobs.
 

Chester1

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Well, here we are waiting breathlessly for the announcement of a deal - or not! Will Boris's trip to Brussels later this week achieve anything? The fact that this thread has languished without comment for nearly a month suggests people don't care any more. We really should, though.

My money is still on a deal. It gives Boris something other than Covid as a legacy. If its no deal and he gets removed as leader because of his handling of the pandemic it will be his only legacy. If there is then a deal it will be Sunak / another Tory / Starmer's legacy. By narrowing down the scope of the deal to a Free Trade Agreement he has limited the scale of any ties to EU regulations. All Tories but the ERG should be OK with a deal that leaves us closely aligned to EU on goods and agriculture. Its the federal stuff and the single market that alienated moderate brexiteers. I think many Tories will be privately happy to be legally unable to offer the US agriculture lobby what it wants. There is significant cross party support for higher animal welfare standards than the EU, let alone the US (although Tories are probably closer to US than EU in regards to crops).

I was thinking exactly the same thing today but decided not to say anything in case anyone noticed...

Society does seem to have a problem with concentrating on more than one issue. This year its been Covid to the exclusion of all others (including the effect on cancer treatment, an increase in suicides etc). Before it was brexit and before that austerity. Some people are resigned (or think they are getting what they want), some people have forgotten and others just got bored and others focus on attacking people with the opposing view on Covid-19 instead.
 

birchesgreen

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Cynically i suspect the earlier talks were designed to fail because Johnson wants to save the day at the last minute.
 

ainsworth74

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Well, here we are waiting breathlessly for the announcement of a deal - or not! Will Boris's trip to Brussels later this week achieve anything? The fact that this thread has languished without comment for nearly a month suggests people don't care any more. We really should, though.

I still care, I still care a lot. I just don't have the energy for it anymore. Despite it seeming clear to me that Brexit remains the greatest act of national self-harm we have probably ever inflicted on ourselves it is equally clear that for a great many of my fellow citizens either they don't think that that is true or they just don't care as it's less important than some other intangible idea (perhaps around "sovereignty" and "taking back control" or maybe "controlling our borders" or some other thing that in reality we always had control over to a great degree). So what's the point?

The Tory party either by accident or design (or both) appears to have been taken over by the lunatics. The Brexit we are now getting is nothing like the Brexit Vote Leave told us we would get and yet we are assured that people knew what they were voting for and this hardest of Brexit's is therefore the will of the people. The Mail, the Express, et al will no doubt cheer us forward into oblivion whilst blaming those nasty people in Brussels for punishing us "plucky Brits" when it goes wrong. The price of Brexit is probably going to be the end of the country I live in as I'll be surprised if Scotland hasn't gone independent by the end of this decade and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a unified Ireland either. And yet on we go.

So of course I still care. There just isn't any point in saying anything about it anymore as there's nothing to be done but feeling incredibly sad about it all and watch with continuing horror as our politicians, cheered on by a significant segment of society, continue with their project.
 

nlogax

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I still care, I still care a lot. I just don't have the energy for it anymore. Despite it seeming clear to me that Brexit remains the greatest act of national self-harm we have probably ever inflicted on ourselves it is equally clear that for a great many of my fellow citizens either they don't think that that is true or they just don't care as it's less important than some other intangible idea (perhaps around "sovereignty" and "taking back control" or maybe "controlling our borders" or some other thing that in reality we always had control over to a great degree). So what's the point?

Exactly how I feel. 'Taking back control' is about to be proven as fruitless and counterproductive an endeavor as it's possible for a country to experience. I feel the UK has been vandalized by over half its citizens but at this point what can be done? It's going to happen, and happen hard. All the demonstrations, all the legal and democrat manoeuvres to lessen the upcoming impact have failed, so let's move on to things we can control against a background of absolute BS that we can't.
 

Senex

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Exactly how I feel. 'Taking back control' is about to be proven as fruitless and counterproductive an endeavor as it's possible for a country to experience. I feel the UK has been vandalized by over half its citizens but at this point what can be done? It's going to happen, and happen hard. All the demonstrations, all the legal and democrat manoeuvres to lessen the upcoming impact have failed, so let's move on to things we can control against a background of absolute BS that we can't.
Vandalised by its "democracy" yes, but not by "over half of its citizens". The 17+ million who voted for Leave were never a majority of the electorate, and neither were the numbers who gave Johnson his 80-seat Commons majority. That's the outcome of a system of which Johnson and his mob are so proud: like so many other things, the British constitution and British democracy are, of course, world-beating and the envy of others. But yes, it's going to happen and it will be hard. I'm not sure whether one should hope that even at this very late stage there can be some sort of agreement and compromise or whether one should wish for No Deal, despite the problems that will follow, so that Johnson and his followers can enjoy the fruits of thei "victory" as soon as possible and come to realise that life as a medium-sized power in the world, however pretentious that power wants to be, is not too comfortable.
 

nlogax

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Vandalised by its "democracy" yes, but not by "over half of its citizens"

Yes, I do take your point. Vandalized by half those who voted.

Edit - though I'd add that for those that didn't vote and who believed that common sense would prevail, they're also partially to blame.
 
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najaB

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Is there any other option other than move to Ireland for at least 5 years?
There are three options:
  1. Stay in the UK and deal with the outcome of Brexit, hope that sense returns to UK politics
  2. Move to a EU country - e.g. Ireland and try to recover your EU citizenship
  3. Move to a non-EU country and give up on EU citizenship entirely
 

ainsworth74

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Move to a EU country - e.g. Ireland and try to recover your EU citizenship

Oh if I had a time machine I'd be off back to shout at younger ainsworth74 to work harder at his German GCSE, take a German A-Level and then head off to Germany for university...
 

Journeyman

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Is there any other option other than move to Ireland for at least 5 years?

It's probably the easiest route, as all UK citizens have unlimited rights to live in Ireland under rules made a long time before either country joined the EU. Could potentially be speeded up if you fancy marrying someone when you get there...
 

jamesheet49

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It's probably the easiest route, as all UK citizens have unlimited rights to live in Ireland under rules made a long time before either country joined the EU. Could potentially be speeded up if you fancy marrying someone when you get there...

I wouldn't be surprised if some people are considering sham marriages to get EU passports. Some people may think paying, say, £10,000 to someone from one of the poorer EU countries is easier than getting visas or spending time in Ireland. Bizarre it has come to this, given that it is normally people in third world countries who want sham marriages for passports.
 

Journeyman

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I wouldn't be surprised if some people are considering sham marriages to get EU passports. Some people may think paying, say, £10,000 to someone from one of the poorer EU countries is easier than getting visas or spending time in Ireland. Bizarre it has come to this, given that it is normally people in third world countries who want sham marriages for passports.

My grandfather was a feckless waster who abandoned his family, but rather usefully for me, he was born in Dublin, which made me eligible for Irish citizenship. It cost me about £300 to get it all sorted, but I'm glad I was able to do so.

It's pretty shocking that taking citizenship of another country, that I don't have any form of deep connection with, was something I had to do to protect my rights and interests.
 

jamesheet49

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It may or may not be a coincidence that the NI agreement has been announced on the same day as vaccine euphoria. Maybe we can expect further climb downs in the negotiations.
 

alex397

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It does seem many people have their heads in the sand over Brexit. To be honest I don’t blame them - it’s a stressful topic to think about and we have had to deal with Covid.

I find it incredible we have reached this point. Frankly, going ahead with a huge change which was only supported by 51% in a referendum was clearly going to be incredibly divisive. I really hope that the 49% will be recognised and there will be compromises made, otherwise it will continue to be a divisive issue for decades to come. And would we have these increased concerns with Scotland and Northern Ireland if we just left things alone? Probably not!

Sadly I never got to vote in the refurendum - for reasons I’m still not sure of. I voted from the same address before for a local election, but for some reason I wasn’t on the electoral register for the Brexit vote - bizarre! (I really regret not checking I was registered first!).
While it is perhaps unlikely I will move abroad to an EU country, I have been learning some more German (my language skills have never been good though). I also have Italian ancestry, and I’ve read that you can apply for a passport through ‘right of blood’, as long as those ancestors were citizens of the actual unified country of Italy - I need to do further research on this though, as it looks like a complicated process, and there would probably be certain requirements. I think I’d prefer to live in Germany though. I’m not a huge fan of some of the EU’s actions, but overall I think it is a good thing. It has benefitted peoples lives more than some realise, and it is a shame to lose some of those rights for reasons I’m still not sure of.

I’m also not sure why the politicians and media keep going on about fishing - it is such a tiny part of the economy, and most of the current issues with fishing were caused by the UK, and not the EU (like so many things!)
 
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Domh245

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I really hope that the 49% will be recognised and there will be compromises made, otherwise it will continue to be a divisive issue for decades to come

Seeing as they've been good as completely ignored the last 4 years - at the point where there was any chance to compromise in their favour, I sadly doubt this'll happen. I admire your optimism though!
 

alex397

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Seeing as they've been good as completely ignored the last 4 years - at the point where there was any chance to compromise in their favour, I sadly doubt this'll happen. I admire your optimism though!
Well, I’m not really optimistic to be honest, especially from a government which appears to be increasingly nationalistic. A decent government would see the whole picture and make compromises.
 

Journeyman

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Seeing as they've been good as completely ignored the last 4 years - at the point where there was any chance to compromise in their favour, I sadly doubt this'll happen. I admire your optimism though!

Remainers will be as ignored and marginalised as Unionists are in Scotland. :(
 

dgl

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Us remainers won't be ignored, don't forget they've got to blame somebody and this has to be al our fault :rolleyes:
 

jamesheet49

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Amazon customers in Ireland will have to change to another Amazon site (for example Germany or France) to avoid customs charges from Amazon UK. That will mean different product availability and longer delivery times.
 

Chester1

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It does seem many people have their heads in the sand over Brexit. To be honest I don’t blame them - it’s a stressful topic to think about and we have had to deal with Covid.

I find it incredible we have reached this point. Frankly, going ahead with a huge change which was only supported by 51% in a referendum was clearly going to be incredibly divisive. I really hope that the 49% will be recognised and there will be compromises made, otherwise it will continue to be a divisive issue for decades to come. And would we have these increased concerns with Scotland and Northern Ireland if we just left things alone? Probably not!

Sadly I never got to vote in the refurendum - for reasons I’m still not sure of. I voted from the same address before for a local election, but for some reason I wasn’t on the electoral register for the Brexit vote - bizarre! (I really regret not checking I was registered first!).
While it is perhaps unlikely I will move abroad to an EU country, I have been learning some more German (my language skills have never been good though). I also have Italian ancestry, and I’ve read that you can apply for a passport through ‘right of blood’, as long as those ancestors were citizens of the actual unified country of Italy - I need to do further research on this though, as it looks like a complicated process, and there would probably be certain requirements. I think I’d prefer to live in Germany though. I’m not a huge fan of some of the EU’s actions, but overall I think it is a good thing. It has benefitted peoples lives more than some realise, and it is a shame to lose some of those rights for reasons I’m still not sure of.

I’m also not sure why the politicians and media keep going on about fishing - it is such a tiny part of the economy, and most of the current issues with fishing were caused by the UK, and not the EU (like so many things!)

The bit in bold gives you credibility lacked by most people that I have met who have talked about emigrating. Its not realistic for working age people to move to the continent without speaking another European language. I don't have much sympathy for people complaining about losing an automatic right to move to a country where they would struggle to string a couple of sentances together!!! Its taking the mick if people haven't bothered to start 4 and half years after the referendum and with loss of FOM three weeks away. I am somewhere between A1 and A2 standard of German but I am realistic that I will never make the effort to become fluent and therefore will never live there (I wouldn't retire there). Its good to be able to know the basics as a tourist but a professional level is a world away from that. I assume there will be howls of outrage when Brits need to have basic language qualifications for visas for some EU countries. Brexit will probably be blamed. A reduction in the number of Brits living abroad that are unable to speak the local language should be welcomed, they are a national embarrassment (and they come from across the political spectrum).
 

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