Brexit matters

[Sm5]

Sorry, it's now "lazy" not to move to France?

What if people who were born in Britain don't want to move to France and live there?

And people still wonder why Remain lost!

To clarify..

The posters reply is lazy. He is reliant on fictional barriers that did not ever exist.
No one, British, was refused permission to seek a job in another EU country against their will.

Lets not start with Brexit misinformation, there is enough of it already.

perhaps you could answer the other questions, if they arent to uncomfortable.

 

[AlterEgo]

To clarify..

The posters reply is lazy. He is reliant on fictional barriers that did not ever exist.
No one, British, was refused permission to seek a job in another EU country against their will.

Lets not start with Brexit misinformation, there is enough of it already.

perhaps you could answer the other questions, if they arent to uncomfortable.

Which questions? The ones where you start with the false premise that freedom of movement of labour within a country are the same as international freedom of movement of labour?

 

[Sm5]

I think this is the nub of the matter.

Strangely, EU immigration from the East has become much less transactional. At the outset, the trend was: young people came, often without family, to work for a couple of years and put in serious graft to save money to send home. While they were taxed here, they mostly lived austere lives in house shares and sent money out of the country rather than spending it here.

Now, with the increase in living standards (esp in Poland), and the declining pound against the Euro, this is not attractive, and a lot of the Eastern Europeans you see here now are very well-established and strongly integrated in the local community, often marrying locally and raising their children as British nationals. I think it's all very unfortunate and Blair has a lot to answer for. It was a Pandora's box of unintended consequences and I feel sorry for the Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians who feel Brexit was a slight against them.

Why do you think its a slight against them ?
i think youve missed it completely..

Europeans in the UK literally have Britain and Europe as their oyster, and are set to split British Lower / Middle Class into haves and have nots…

Those who are here, want to be here, and enjoy something Brits do not...

freedom of movement both all Europe and the UK. There children will be the most advantaged in Europe.. they are the only ones who can truly move and transact as they please in the EU27+ affiliations and the UK, having right to Dual British and EU citizenship through parentage… 6million and counting, plus their future 2.4 children… potentially 20mn people in this country within a generation… 1 in 2.x people will have this… which is not a minority.

British cannot easilly set up and move around Europe any longer. British citizens with British qualifications will fall behind those who can freely live and work with both dual EU/UK citizenship at will across all nations… British will need visas and multiple work permits as although Schengan visa’s permits movement, each nation manages its own domicile and employment… you cant just work in Germany, if you got a Schengan visa from France, you can visit but thats your lot…because the EU is not a country and Brits are not EU citizens.

Further expats British in Europe dont enjoy freedom of movement either, only Movement within their chosen 1 european country, they can visit others, but not relocate. They cannot upsticks and move freely across the continent, now or in the future, unless they dual nationalise to an EU country or apply for different immigration in that country. Britain didnt fight for them and so will be an evolutionary deadend, instead of Britain's seed in Europe.

The UK EU Settled Status generation are the generation who professionally can both represent the UK and Europe at career level without lots of hoops, boundaries and paperwork to convince management… that will be a huge career advantage that will divide Brits from European Settled Brits… its a seed planted by the EU for their ex-pats childrens future right here.

Whats more, those kids will have multinational parents and will be travelling from birth.. so they wont need a red carpet invitation to look overseas for that career job…they’ll have it in their DNA.

Austere lives, a slight ? Your kidding me.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why do you think its a slight against them ?
i think youve missed it completely..

No, you misread. I said I

"feel sorry for the Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians who feel Brexit was a slight against them."

Brexit wasn't a slight against them, but some EU immigrants certainly felt that way.

Europeans in the UK literally have Britain and Europe as their oyster, and are set to split British Lower / Middle Class into haves and have nots…

Those who are here, want to be here, and enjoy something Brits do not...

Agreed.

British cannot easilly set up and move around Europe any longer. British citizens with British qualifications will fall behind those who can freely live and work with both dual EU/UK citizenship at will across all nations… British will need visas which although Schengan visa’s permits movement, each nation manages its own domicile and employment… you cant just work in Germany, if you got a Schengan visa from France, you can visit but thats your lot…because the EU is not a country and Brits are not EU citizens.

But Brits generally don't want to do any of this. They just want to have good opportunities in their own country. Those that do leave have, by a considerable majority, gone outside the EU to emigrate, to English-speaking countries, despite significant barriers to relocating.

Why is that? Why do you think people from English-speaking Britain don't generally choose to work in France, Hungary, Finland or Croatia, where there are, as you claim, "no barriers", but will happily move to the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the like?

its a seed planted by the EU for the future.

A seed planted by the EU? You think this is some sort of grand plan from the EU?

Austere lives, a slight ? Your kidding me.

Yeah, you misread my post. Have another go.

 

[Sm5]

Why is that? Why do you think people from English-speaking Britain don't generally choose to work in France, Hungary, Finland or Croatia, where there are, as you claim, "no barriers", but will happily move to the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the like?

Are you suggesting Brits dont live in France, Spain, Italy, how about Thailand, India, UAE (Dubai), South Africa..

Are you trying to play the language card by selectively choosing white english countries and omitting other migration hotspots, in and out of the EU as its counter narrative ?

English (and Chinese) are global languages, you can get by in any country with one of them, and integrate over time. I know Ive done it in several countries, whilst working (not holidaying) in over 60 others, and never needed to fully learn a local language, though it often brings smiles and opens doors by trying.

Its not a barrier, i’m from a northern mill town, from a not too well off family, so its not as if I dont know, and outside my family, theres not one person in this country who wouldnt jealously spit on me before providing help, so i’m proud of saying its off my own merits.
I started with a backpack, a one way ticket to Gatwick from Piccadilly, $400 in travellers checks and a £30k student debt in 1990’s money…nothing else, no contacts, job or friends where I went next, and to be honest..no clear idea either.. beyond a girl who would dump me when I arrived at her airport, as she saw me as the holiday romance… my next 6 months saw me living from a garage with a strangers dog, with no route home as my ticket was one way and travellers cheques were useless.

The only barriers are peoples minds. A lot of people would benefit from an expanded neighbourhood, or simply being stressed in a position that makes them think beyond their 4 square, to unlock their potential they didnt know they had… I got a dotcom IT career in California that took me all over the world, with a client list of big names waiting several months for my availability.. just by juggling and fire eating in up state New York…who would think of that in Lancashire ?

If I could change one thing in this country, it would be to encourage people to see other countries, beyond its beach, bars and tourist sites… I also have contributed to my university to encourage others to follow.

 

[RT4038]

Are you suggesting Brits dont live in France, Spain, Italy, how about Thailand, India, UAE (Dubai), South Africa..

Are you trying to play the language card by selectively choosing white english countries and omitting other migration hotspots, in and out of the EU as its counter narrative ?

English (and Chinese) are global languages, you can get by in any country with one of them, and integrate over time. I know Ive done it in several countries, whilst working (not holidaying) in over 60 others, and never needed to fully learn a local language, though it often brings smiles and opens doors by trying.

Its not a barrier, i’m from a northern mill town, from a not too well off family, so its not as if I dont know, and outside my family, theres not one person in this country who wouldnt jealously spit on me before providing help, so i’m proud of saying its off my own merits.

The only barriers are peoples minds. If I could change one thing in this country, it would be to encourage people to see other countries, beyond its beach, bars and tourist sites.

But as has been pointed out before by @AlterEgo : (with amendments)
But the vast majority of people in the UK don't want to move their families and lives and work in the EU. Just two million people do that in total, and much fewer with families in tow. It's a niche pursuit. I don't think you can criticise people who have literally no intention of exercising a right for deciding to vote to end that right, especially when that right was conditional on people coming here to enter our labour market in large numbers and provide what the libertarians would call "competition" but what most voters would consider lowering the going rate for work.

I understand, from your background, why you are angry about the end of FoM for UK citizens. This part of the thread was discussing as to why the referendum result was the way it was and the part FoM played in it. Understanding the issues. Of course there are much wider considerations, but the intransigence of the EU to recognise the particular difficulties that the UK had with FoM contributed to the result. However, blame can be attributed in all directions and throwing it about is not particularly helpful, as we are where we are.

 

[bspahh]

British cannot easily set up and move around Europe any longer.

At the moment, you can regain freedom of movement with an Irish passport after being resident for 5 years..

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...sh_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l6615c says:

You must have lived in the State for a certain length of time. The specific requirements are that you:

• Have a period of 365 days* (1 year) continuous reckonable residence in the State immediately before the date of your application for naturalisation and
• During the 8 years before that, have had a total reckonable residence in the State of 1,460 days* (4 years)

You can leave Ireland for up to 6 weeks (in total) per year and still be considered resident in that year. If you leave for more than 6 weeks in one year, you should not count this period when you are calculating your reckonable residence. If you had to leave Ireland for longer than 6 weeks because of an emergency, you should explain this in your application.

If you spend more than 6 weeks outside of Ireland in the year immediately before your application, you may have to wait until the following year to make an application.

Altogether you must have 5 years (5 x 365 days*) reckonable residence out of the last 9 years. *You must add 1 day for any period which includes 29 February (a leap year).

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you suggesting Brits dont live in France, Spain, Italy, how about Thailand, India, UAE (Dubai), South Africa..

Are you trying to play the language card by selectively choosing white english countries and omitting other migration hotspots, in and out of the EU as its counter narrative ?

Those countries are the four largest anglophone countries (excluding Ireland) which British people move to. Language is a significant barrier for most people. Just as asylum seekers and migrants might seek to enter the UK because it’s a tolerant anglophone nation, likewise, those four places are welcoming anglophone countries and they’re the most common places for British people to move to. Not France, which is on our doorstep!

English (and Chinese) are global languages, you can get by in any country with one of them, and integrate over time.

You can’t get by in any country with Chinese as a language. English is the only language where almost every country has a modicum of proficiency.

I know Ive done it in several countries, whilst working (not holidaying) in over 60 others, and never needed to fully learn a local language, though it often brings smiles and opens doors by trying.

You’re saying this like I haven’t ever left the country. I’m posting this from the McDonald’s at the mall in Tijuana.

Its not a barrier, i’m from a northern mill town, from a not too well off family, so its not as if I dont know, and outside my family, theres not one person in this country who wouldnt jealously spit on me before providing help, so i’m proud of saying its off my own merits.

Nobody is criticising your own choices

I started with a backpack, a one way ticket to Gatwick from Piccadilly, $400 in travellers checks and a £30k student debt in 1990’s money…nothing else, no contacts, job or friends where I went next, and to be honest..no clear idea either.. beyond a girl who would dump me when I arrived at her airport, as she saw me as the holiday romance… my next 6 months saw me living from a garage with a strangers dog, with no route home as my ticket was one way and travellers cheques were useless.

The only barriers are peoples minds.
The world has done a lot for me, I left Lancashire, failing twice to get a job at McDonalds in Manchester, and returned to Europe.

If I could change one thing in this country, it would be to encourage people to see other countries, beyond its beach, bars and tourist sites… I also have contributed to my university to encourage others to follow.

Of course, losing FoM is going to hurt some people, and it’s obvious that it’ll grate with you. But you can’t impart your own life choices you made in context of your own circumstances and claim everyone else ought to do it.

 

[Sm5]

Understanding the issues. Of course there are much wider considerations, but the intransigence of the EU to recognise the particular difficulties that the UK had with FoM contributed to the result. However, blame can be attributed in all directions and throwing it about is not particularly helpful, as we are where we are.

why are you blaming the EU for this ?
Its our governments responsibility to do this.
No government of any colour has truly supported British EU membership, and it was only really post Maastricht that Britain got any gain from it.

Looking back, its clear the approach taken by Cameron was a delibrate aim to undermine the EU. his “demands” were weak, and set to make a referendum, which he hoped to spook the EU with as a threat.
He just didnt realise British people were actually against it, the public stole his negotiating hand and passed it to Brexiteers.

The fault lies there… the clues were all around.. Scottish referendum, peoples apetite to vote for Boaty macboatface… it should have been obvious a vote on Europe was always going to be a protest vote, joined by the naive, the malicious and those who really didnt want to be in Europe Combined to make the vote what it was.

As you say its happened.

The question is really whats next.

I understand, from your background, why you are angry about the end of FoM for UK citizens. This part of the thread was discussing as to why the referendum result was the way it was and the part FoM played in it. Understanding the issues.

Angry, no, passionate, yes very, definitely.

Nothing will change it.
The issues were clear, I grew up around it. Its poverty. Poverty and poor education. This isnt Europes fault. A culture of homes to single parent kids, who have kids to get a house, who repeat the following. A culture of no oppourtunity, a culture of no pride. A culture promoted by media to create anger against the state and to live off handouts.
This was caused by the end of the empire, the cessation of conscript armies invading other countries, followed by exporting populace to build nations.
The cessation of British exporting industry to those colonies and unmanaged decline postwar.

Europes only role in this was WW2. Our industry didnt move to Europe, it just became too expensive and out of date, coupled with bad marketing and poor investment.

As a kid, my time was spent on demolished building sites of former factories, scrap the biggest industry. Brown fields the result, followed by crime, broken windows, grafiti etc. Ive woken to kids smashing houses in daylight, even climbing on my roof.. my youth prepared me for adulthood quite well. My father just coerced it into education for reasons I did not understand at the time, but am eternally grateful since.

The Government needs to invest in its people, it doesnt and never has as long as we are “subjects” not “people”. Brexit isnt going to change that culture. People wont trust government.

if the EU lasts 30-40 years those EUSS’s will be a majority to put us back in. Though by that time, the qualification bar may be too high for us to join, or too weak for us to want to…certainly there is no way back today and definitely not on the terms we had before… but even if it did.. it wont change the above situation.

I’m looking for the oppourtunity in this, which is frustratingly absent, if there was one i’d be on it. So far the best chance Ive seen is importing food from South Africa, which isn't my thing, but if your into food imports, thats surely the big winner, followed by Brazil (not politically correct) /Argentina (Definitely will get British council support), but despite my years travelling worldwide I've really not seen anything that is worthy of taking a risk on.

Further, after the post covid demand bubble passes, the risk of inflation, higher interest rates, stagflation together with a gradual wind down of service, IT, legal, financial services will follow much like it did in Hong Kong. The south isnt the place to be, though the north may find a lower wage pay rise and greater low skilled oppourtunities.
The UK needs to find itself a big spend investor, if its to recover like Hong Kong did.. i’m not sure whos willing to do it… right now i’m not convinced the US is interested, so it might be the middle east…but that needs a gem of an idea for them to buy into.. electric cars wont cut it.

You can’t get by in any country with Chinese as a language. English is the only language where almost every country has a modicum of proficiency.

You’re saying this like I haven’t ever left the country. I’m posting this from the McDonald’s at the mall in Tijuana.

you certainly can get by in Chinese, just not in Anglo environments. Ive used Chinese in Hungary before now for example. China has a community in nearly every country, its used mostly by Chinese for obvious reasons.

I’m kind of wrapping up in this thread as I think theres not much I can add to the debate, but I do have to ask, if your in TJ, why are you foruming here from mcDonalds there ? TJ isnt the nicest of towns, Ensenada and Rosarito are much nicer and only a short drive… though becareful I nearly died driving the wrong way down the freeway there, the signage was so poor.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m kind of wrapping up in this thread as I think theres not much I can add to the debate, but I do have to ask, if your in TJ, why are you foruming here from mcDonalds there ? TJ isnt the nicest of towns, Ensenada and Rosarito are much nicer and only a short drive… though becareful I nearly died driving the wrong way down the freeway there, the signage was so poor.

I'm here for work and meeting a couple of friends who are popping over the land border from San Diego who can fortunately cross for work reasons (as I can't get in the US - yet!).

 

[brad465]

Southern Spain is a very good example where British expats immigrants have moved in large numbers. Enough for English shops, cafes and bars to dominate in some areas.

Someone once joked that if UKIP wanted to host a party conference in the most British place they could find, they should do it in Benidorm

 

[WestCoast]

Just returned from a lovely weekend over in Dublin to visit a couple of friends. It was immediately noticeable how many more EU visitors they seem to have right now compared to in Scotland, heard lots of French, German, Spanish etc being spoken out and about. In previous years you would hear the same in Edinburgh. I presume this is partly due to the COVID testing we have and that Ireland is accepting EU COVID passes and ID cards of course.

 

[Sm5]

Just returned from a lovely weekend over in Dublin to visit a couple of friends. It was immediately noticeable how many more EU visitors they seem to have right now compared to in Scotland, heard lots of French, German, Spanish etc being spoken out and about. In previous years you would hear the same in Edinburgh. I presume this is partly due to the COVID testing we have and that Ireland is accepting EU COVID passes and ID cards of course.

You dont need a passport to go to Ireland from Europe, if your EU.

Similarly stories like this hardly encourage tourism…

The dark side of Brexit: European citizens being detained in migrant holding centers in UK

Dozens of EU travelers have been held and deported under Britain’s new immigration laws, which are very tough and highly restrictive

english.elpais.com

EU citizens arriving in UK being locked up and expelled

Europeans with job interviews tell of detentions and expulsions despite rules allowing non-visa holders to attend interviews

www.theguardian.com

Hostile UK border regime traumatises visitors from EU

Italian woman visiting family was locked up in detention centre as they waited at the airport, Guardian told

www.theguardian.com

Handcuffed, detained, denied medicine: EU citizens’ UK border ordeals

Travellers caught up in extension of ‘hostile environment’ policy tell of being made to feel like criminals

www.theguardian.com

Can EU Nationals Come to the UK for a Job Interview Without Restriction?

Any hopes that the Home Office’s hostile environment is a thing of the past will have been extremely disappointed to hear stories in the media about…

www.lexology.com

The amazing one, was a Czech holidaymaker, flying to Mexico via London on British Airways.. on her return she opted for a short stop over in London, was detained, and deported back to Mexico, rather than on to Prague.

Why would you want to come here, or send your kids to visit with stories like that ?

Why buy a passport just to visit the UK, when most of the time you can travel pan EU on a national ID card issued to everyone by default at little/no cost.

Were not exactly building bridges with our neighbours, so dont be surprised if they dont come…

 

[ChewChewTrain]

No idea how we could do that though. I mean, we'd need some sort of union. Has such a thing ever been attempted before?

Well, if a country could choose which other countries it entered such an arrangement with, tailor that arrangement to its requirements, and not have to sign up to a load of other stuff as well (e.g. laws which cannot be democratically initiated or repealed, ECJ rulings, an inability to make its own trade deals, CAP/CFP, and sending over loadsamoney to pay for all that), then that may or may not be a goer. Has such a thing ever been attempted before?

If not, why not? Why the lack of flexibility? Is that something which has been imposed with the interests of ordinary citizens in mind? Why can’t a country choose what to opt into, on an ongoing basis, as long as there’s reciprocation where appropriate?

Why the relatively new requirement for new EU members to join the euro? Does that suggest that there’ll be more flexibility, or even less, going forward?

 

[jon0844]

As we were one of the first members, and didn't need to join the Euro, I'd say we had a pretty good deal. We were responsible for putting forward a lot of things that became law, rather than having it forced upon us.

As for the money we paid in; how many years of membership have we paid for in the last few years? Enough for many, many years.

How's it going with the Government funding local services that the EU funded before? Places like Cumbria or Cornwall, and parts of Wales? Are they glad that Boris and co are controlling the purse strings? All that talk of northern powerhouses, which conveniently seems to get delayed and delayed and delayed.

If we'd voted to leave the EU and then voted in a Government actually interested in our interests I might have been a little more positive. Instead, we vote in a Government that has swung violently towards the right and seem only to want to protect big business and remove rights of those who voted for it.

 

[edwin_m]

As we were one of the first members, and didn't need to join the Euro, I'd say we had a pretty good deal. We were responsible for putting forward a lot of things that became law, rather than having it forced upon us.

As for the money we paid in; how many years of membership have we paid for in the last few years? Enough for many, many years.

How's it going with the Government funding local services that the EU funded before? Places like Cumbria or Cornwall, and parts of Wales? Are they glad that Boris and co are controlling the purse strings? All that talk of northern powerhouses, which conveniently seems to get delayed and delayed and delayed.

If we'd voted to leave the EU and then voted in a Government actually interested in our interests I might have been a little more positive. Instead, we vote in a Government that has swung violently towards the right and seem only to want to protect big business and remove rights of those who voted for it.

The government talks the talk on doing all these things, but whether the walk is walked is yet to be seen. I for one have my doubts.

 

[nlogax]

How's it going with the Government funding local services that the EU funded before? Places like Cumbria or Cornwall, and parts of Wales? Are they glad that Boris and co are controlling the purse strings? All that talk of northern powerhouses, which conveniently seems to get delayed and delayed and delayed.

Completely as expected according to one local newspaper.

https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/19571108.cornwall-get-just-3m-replacement-funding-leaving-eu/

Cornwall may only get a maximum of £3million of cash from the Government to directly replace the £100m it could have been eligible for if the UK had remained in the EU, it has been claimed.

Prior to Brexit Cornwall had qualified for funding from the European Union due to it being recognised as one of the poorest regions in Europe.

As a result Cornwall could have been receiving £100m a year to help provide economic stimulus and support projects which would provide everything from employment and skills to infrastructure.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson has previously stated that Cornwall would not miss out on any funding that it would have received if the UK had remained in the EU.
However it has been revealed that the Shared Prosperity Fund (SPF) – which has been put forward as the mechanism to provide that replacement funding – will not fully start until 2022 and that the pilot scheme, the Community Renewal Fund (CRF), worth £220m for the whole of the country will only allow local authorities to bid for a maximum of £3m.

Cornwall Council is set to bid for the full £3m allowed, but there is not enough cash to fulfil that for every council so some councils may get less or nothing at all.

 

[jon0844]

Just as long as that money saved is sent to the NHS, all will be well.

 

[AM9]

Completely as expected according to one local newspaper.

https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/19571108.cornwall-get-just-3m-replacement-funding-leaving-eu/

So not only might we see some blue walls turn back to red in 3-4 years, there might be some that go back to orange.

 

[RT4038]

Well, if a country could choose which other countries it entered such an arrangement with, tailor that arrangement to its requirements, and not have to sign up to a load of other stuff as well (e.g. laws which cannot be democratically initiated or repealed, ECJ rulings, an inability to make its own trade deals, CAP/CFP, and sending over loadsamoney to pay for all that), then that may or may not be a goer. Has such a thing ever been attempted before?

If not, why not? Why the lack of flexibility? Is that something which has been imposed with the interests of ordinary citizens in mind? Why can’t a country choose what to opt into, on an ongoing basis, as long as there’s reciprocation where appropriate?

Why the relatively new requirement for new EU members to join the euro? Does that suggest that there’ll be more flexibility, or even less, going forward?

It is, of course, possible for any country to voluntarily enter into any kind of agreement with another, and there are no doubt plenty of examples around the world.

However, the better and freer the deal is, the more likely there will be conditions - mainly to minimise one party to the agreement benefiting more than the other. This can take the form , inter alia, of ensuring common standards both economic and of products to ensure fair competition and/or using the superior economic performance of one to subsidise the other. Whatever, it is unlikely for countries to make agreements that will disadvantage them in the round.

Much of the 'sign up to a load of other stuff' for membership of the EU is designed to level the playing field between the member countries, so one country doesn't have an advantage of the others, or if it does, it shares the spoils around. Some is also with a view to forming a United States of Europe sometime in the future. There is some flexibility - our own Brexit trade deal - but not that much otherwise it will undermine the ethos of the EU.

How's it going with the Government funding local services that the EU funded before? Places like Cumbria or Cornwall, and parts of Wales? Are they glad that Boris and co are controlling the purse strings? All that talk of northern powerhouses, which conveniently seems to get delayed and delayed and delayed.

Is this concept of a consortium of other countries deciding on the level of regional funding in a country something which is fairly standard elsewhere in the world? I don't think so.

 

[class ep-09]

Is this concept of a consortium of other countries deciding on the level of regional funding in a country something which is fairly standard elsewhere in the world? I don't think so.

Perhaps not, but if its own government does give very little founds to the most deprived areas , then that consortium is a life saver and there should be more of them .

 

[jon0844]

I doubt individual countries all sit around deciding who gets grants and regeneration money. It will be an agency doing it on behalf of EU members, no different to how the UK might have given out money to regions in the past.

Economy of scale makes a lot of these services more efficient than when we now have to replicate them for one country instead of almost 30. Same with things like air traffic control and so on.

It's ironic that people yearn for a return of the days of the British Empire, yet couldn't see that our influence within the EU was far closer to what they want than any true belief we might one day return to our level of power and influence on our own and seeking out our own deals.

We are always going to be negotiating from a position of weakness.

 

[berneyarms]

You dont need a passport to go to Ireland from Europe, if your EU.

That's wrong. You do need a passport to visit Ireland from the rest of the EU, as Ireland is not part of the Schengen zone.

 

[biko]

That's wrong. You do need a passport to visit Ireland from the rest of the EU, as Ireland is not part of the Schengen zone.

That’s not true, as an EU citizen with ID card I can visit the Republic of Ireland, the difference with EU Schengen counties being that you need to show it at the border.

 

[berneyarms]

That’s not true, as an EU citizen with ID card I can visit the Republic of Ireland, the difference with EU Schengen counties being that you need to show it at the border.

Sorry, I should have said a passport or a recognised travel document such as a national ID card.
My point was that the previous post implied that there were no ID requirements at Irish points of entry, and there most certainly are, and EU nationals need a passport/ID card.

 

[Sm5]

Sorry, I should have said a passport or a recognised travel document such as a national ID card.
My point was that the previous post implied that there were no ID requirements at Irish points of entry, and there most certainly are, and EU nationals need a passport/ID card.

No it didnt that was just your own confusion.

i clearly said…

You dont need a passport to go to Ireland from Europe, if your EU

which is true.
if your not EU, (ie Brazilian etc) then you do need to present a passport..
but if your an EU citizen coming from Europe you dont need a passport to travel.

The point your cleverly navigating around, is EU citizens dont need a passport in everyday life for international travel around the bloc…only if they need to come here do they need one, which is an artificial barrier of bureaucracy of our own creation, which will act as a disincentive to visit, unless they were determined, rather than would like, to come.
Remeber all EU countries, indeed just about worldwide, require people to carry an Identity card, the Uk is just about the only civilised country that does not (We have the Social Security card), moreover many of those countries issue them freely to their citizens.

I suspect the issue is reciprocity.. we have nothing to counter offer, we dont have an ID card for other countries to accept.

In Europe the ID card is your gift to travel…one which we do not accept, but several more enterprising nations outside of schengen do accept, including Ireland, Switzerland, Turkey, Iceland etc because of the increased trade benefits it brings.

Many people do “weekenders” around Europe, but unless your planning months ahead and wanting to waste some cash on a document you might only use once or twice in 10 years…why bother with here, hundreds of other cities across the continent are competing to welcome you. I predict London tourism will be down for years, as an add on thought to Europeans getting passports for “once in a life time trips” to other parts of the world.

 

[birchesgreen]

We apparently have signed a new trade deal with NZ which may raise our GDP by as much as 0.01%. If we are lucky.

UK strikes trade deal with New Zealand – but it may add nothing to GDP

‘Groundbreaking’ agreement criticised by UK farmers is part of 10-year plan to pivot to Indo-Pacific

www.theguardian.com

The deal may boost New Zealand’s GDP by $970m or around 0.3%. However, last year’s analysis by the UK government found that its effect on Britain’s GDP would probably have “limited effect … in the long run” – being between a positive growth of 0.01% or negative growth of -0.01%.

 

[Sm5]

We apparently have signed a new trade deal with NZ which may raise our GDP by as much as 0.01%. If we are lucky.

UK strikes trade deal with New Zealand – but it may add nothing to GDP

‘Groundbreaking’ agreement criticised by UK farmers is part of 10-year plan to pivot to Indo-Pacific

www.theguardian.com

Thats probably one of the better deals weve signed so far.

And New Zealand lamb is quite nice, as is their Cabernet Sauvignon, not that consumers will see any price benefits from it. If we buy less Italian, French and Spanish wine, we could drink more NZ, Aus, SA and AR wine… all of which are excellent, but restricted in sales due to EU Quotas…this is one of the few Brexit benefits Ive identified… and Beef.

Maybe we can export those DRS mk2’s to balance it out ?.. might be useful for barrier vehicles for processing Australias nuclear submarine waste When it starts coming here.

 

[berneyarms]

No it didnt that was just your own confusion.

i clearly said…

which is true.
if your not EU, (ie Brazilian etc) then you do need to present a passport..
but if your an EU citizen coming from Europe you dont need a passport to travel.

The point your cleverly navigating around, is EU citizens dont need a passport in everyday life for international travel around the bloc…only if they need to come here do they need one, which is an artificial barrier of bureaucracy of our own creation, which will act as a disincentive to visit, unless they were determined, rather than would like, to come.
Remeber all EU countries, indeed just about worldwide, require people to carry an Identity card, the Uk is just about the only civilised country that does not (We have the Social Security card), moreover many of those countries issue them freely to their citizens.

In Europe the ID card is your gift to travel…one which we do not accept, but several more enterprising nations outside of schengen do accept, including Ireland, Switzerland, Turkey, Iceland etc because of the increased trade benefits it brings.

Many people do “weekenders” around Europe, but unless your planning months ahead and wanting to waste some cash on a document you might only use once or twice in 10 years…why bother with here, hundreds of other cities across the continent are competing to welcome you. I predict London tourism will be down for years, as an add on thought to Europeans getting passports for “once in a life time trips” to other parts of the world.

Woah there, I’m not trying to cleverly navigate around anything - FYI I am Irish and living in Dublin. I’m no happier about Brexit than you seem to be, but I read your earlier post to mean there were no immigration checks at Irish points of entry for EU citizens. I was correcting that impression, that’s all.

Incidentally Irish citizens can now avail of passport cards for travel within the EEA and the CTA which can be handily carried around in a wallet.

 

[Sm5]

Woah there, I’m not trying to cleverly navigate around anything - FYI I am Irish and living in Dublin. I’m no happier about Brexit than you seem to be, but I read your earlier post to mean there were no immigration checks at Irish points of entry for EU citizens. I was correcting that impression, that’s all.

Incidentally Irish citizens can now avail of passport cards for travel within the EEA and the CTA which can be handily carried around in a wallet.

in the case, i’ll add to my post above and include Irish beef as one of the benefits, its the only meat in the Northern hemisphere which is as good as that from the Southern hemisphere… but I dont know if it needs a passport.


As I see it Ireland is the big winner in all this, all the benefits of EU and UK trade, which is what I think makes the EU nervous.