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Brexit matters

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XAM2175

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For correctness:

Remeber all EU countries, indeed just about worldwide, require people to carry an Identity card, the Uk is just about the only civilised country that does not (We have the Social Security card)
This is untrue on several levels. Even within the EEA:
- In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland there is no requirement for citizens to possess or carry any form of identity document.
- In France and Italy there is no requirement for citizens to possess or carry any form of identity document, but the police have enhanced powers to require people to prove their identities.
- In Germany, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, and Slovenia citizens are required to possess some form of state-issued identity document, but not necessarily to carry it.
- Only in Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cypress, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Spain is it mandatory for citizens to possess a specific national identity card.

In the wider world, identity cards are not issued or required in Andorra, Australia, the Bahamas, Canada, DR Congo, Japan, Kiribati, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, New Zealand, Palau, Samoa, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, or the Vatican City. Or do you not consider these countries to be civilised?

(The US is a grey area because of the need for secure proof of identity to participate in elections or travel by air.)

Further, there is no such thing in the UK as the "Social Security card". If you mean the National Insurance Numbercard, these were never considered to be proof of identity in any way or form, and they haven't been issued since 2011. Even the National Insurance number itself is no proof of identity in the UK, because they are only issued to UK residents who have the right to seek and take employment regardless of their nationality.

several more enterprising nations outside of schengen do accept, including Ireland, Switzerland, Turkey, Iceland etc
Both Iceland and Switzerland are Schengen states, since 2001 and 2008 respectively.
 

Sm5

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Whatever.

Thing is… you dont need a passport.

Dress it up in jam and cheese as much as you like.

The UK is disadvantaged itself, from Europe by not recognising it, it will cost in lost tourism… Brexiteer it anyway you like… but a weasel wont fit in a 1” pipe, no matter how much you microscope that pipe, all you do is hurt yourself trying.

Though not fresh as my local fish and chip shop claims, after a 24+ hour flight...
not because your spring born lamb might by a grown sheep by October ?

I once had a mate, who worked in the sheep industry, producing New Zealand lamb. He was Scottish and never left the UK… c1997.
How did he manage that ?

Well..he tells me the sheep were sent from Scotland to New zealand, killed, packaged, labelled as New Zealand and sent back.

its amazing how “local“ some far away products are made, in the name of packaging and circumventing quotas and keeping fresh lamb on sale year round, when lambing season is only in spring, but demand is year round.

Many animals are moved around the world so they can claim “heritage” for a certain amount of time or other to be branded as such to be claimed as from that location…occasionally it goes wrong…

is that fish and chip shop selling MSC fish ?
 
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XAM2175

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Whatever.

Thing is… you dont need a passport.

Dress it up in jam and cheese as much as you like.

The UK is disadvantaged itself, from Europe by not recognising it, it will cost in lost tourism… Brexiteer it anyway you like… but a weasel wont fit in a 1” pipe, no matter how much you microscope that pipe, all you do is hurt yourself trying.
You arguments would be more credible if you at least appeared to care about accuracy :rolleyes:
 

alex397

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Daily Express promoting FoM :


I am sure its readers knew what they were voting for…
Express readers probably thought the Costa del Sol would be treated differently to the rest of Europe.
 

Sm5

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You arguments would be more credible if you at least appeared to care about accuracy :rolleyes:
Fair enough.

possession and carrying are not the same thing, so those several countries in your post are a distraction.

Theres c200 countries in the world, your list of a dozen exceptions is not a majority.

its worth noting a driving livence is a substitute in most of your examples cases domestically, in which case it acts as government issued ID..one is a direct substitute of the other..but not an international travel document, it is nonetheless an identity card.. so my point still stands.

Well done on the research to be accurate, but 20% of the world isnt a majority, Brexiteers seem to know %’s quite well… ID is still ID..most examples you state walking without anything is a risk you take.

However.. I stand by my original position..

You dont need a passport to go to Ireland from Europe, if your EU


Most Europeans will happily enjoy travelling a huge territory of nations without needing to fork out on a passport… so why would they unneccessarily want to.. (recall several countries issue ID to their citizens at little or no cost)

Add to that our constant stream of horror stories of shortages, rampant disease and aggressive immigration… the continent really is an attractive place for its residents right now.

Brexiteers really didn't think about international PR very hard… is that because they are isolationist ?.. Germany became increasingly so in the 1930’s… they got increasingly aggressive against those who questioned it too, and eventually…
I generally dislike much of the direction the UK has taken since 2009 and feel its unhealthy long term. The current policy of hostility against the EU really needs to turn around… Even Nigel Farage, bless him, said it was supposed to be “a relationship based on friendship and trade”.
 
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RT4038

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Most Europeans will happily enjoy travelling a huge territory of nations without needing to fork out on a passport… so why would they unneccessarily want to.. (recall several countries issue ID to their citizens at little or no cost)
I am sure that if the UK wants to accept EU ID cards for tourist visits then they could do so. The reciprocity would be accepting UK ID cards, if we had them.

Add to that our constant stream of horror stories of shortages, rampant disease and aggressive immigration… the continent really is an attractive place for its residents right now.
But these stories may spook them whether they could use ID cards or not.
Brexiteers really didn't think about international PR very hard… is that because they are isolationist ?.. Germany became increasingly so in the 1930’s… they got increasingly aggressive against those who questioned it too, and eventually…
I generally dislike much of the direction the UK has taken since 2009 and feel its unhealthy long term. The current policy of hostility against the EU really needs to turn around… Even Nigel Farage, bless him, said it was supposed to be “a relationship based on friendship and trade”.
Maybe Brexiteers didn't think about international PR very hard - maybe they didn't care.

Maybe the situation is uncannily similar to that of Germany after the First World War: in this case a (divorce) agreement that one side feels was negotiated under duress. The current policy of hostility against the EU, and the policy of punishment (for daring to ask for divorce) by the EU really needs to be turned around - I suspect this will happen but only after the characters involved on both sides have departed or gone to the periphery of the scene.

As for Nigel Farage - he can suppose as much as he likes. He very quickly departed from the scene and made sure the mess was left for others to sort out, so he and others can then blame them when they didn't negotiate his supposition.
 

edwin_m

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Maybe the situation is uncannily similar to that of Germany after the First World War: in this case a (divorce) agreement that one side feels was negotiated under duress. The current policy of hostility against the EU, and the policy of punishment (for daring to ask for divorce) by the EU really needs to be turned around - I suspect this will happen but only after the characters involved on both sides have departed or gone to the periphery of the scene.
I'd say the two weren't remotely comparable.

Germany in 1918 had essentially been militarily defeated so was certainly under duress, and the other powers took a line of imposing punishment which was one of the main causes of the rise of Hitler and WW2. A very different line was taken in 1945, at least in the west, which led directly to the peaceful and co-operative Europe we have today (and the EU is a big part of that).

After the referendum Theresa May set out red lines which pre-emptively limited the UK's negotiating position, and Boris Johnson added some more plus some unexpected changes to what had gone before, and an added serving of trust-destroying mendacity. There were several options available to the UK that were not taken, in pursuit of the "pure" Brexit which the more extreme Brexiters had decided was the only worthwhile goal (and neither May nor Johnson attempted to show the leadership to push back on). That arrangement created numerous hurdles to international trade and British prosperity, as well as being fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday agreement.

The EU granted several extensions to the deadline for negotiations so I don't think that was putting the UK under duress, until Johnson refused to ask for any more and thereby created a self-imposed deadline.
 

nlogax

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As for Nigel Farage - he can suppose as much as he likes. He very quickly departed from the scene and made sure the mess was left for others to sort out, so he and others can then blame them when they didn't negotiate his supposition.

Considering Farage wasn't even in the official Leave camp exactly what would you have expected him to sort out? Technically he wasn't responsible for anything and post-referendum he continued to have no role in anything. Even the government knew not to go anywhere near him.
 

RT4038

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After the referendum Theresa May set out red lines which pre-emptively limited the UK's negotiating position, and Boris Johnson added some more plus some unexpected changes to what had gone before, and an added serving of trust-destroying mendacity. There were several options available to the UK that were not taken, in pursuit of the "pure" Brexit which the more extreme Brexiters had decided was the only worthwhile goal (and neither May nor Johnson attempted to show the leadership to push back on). That arrangement created numerous hurdles to international trade and British prosperity, as well as being fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday agreement.

The EU granted several extensions to the deadline for negotiations so I don't think that was putting the UK under duress, until Johnson refused to ask for any more and thereby created a self-imposed deadline.
I think that my use of the phrase 'under duress' is wrong. I would substitute that for 'from a weak position', by the very nature of what the UK was doing. Some of this may well have been self inflicted, but then there was was no consensus as to what was wanted. plus that some of what was wanted was never going to granted.

Whatever, it has left the UK still an unhappy country, which cannot be good for its neighbours, quite apart from itself.

Considering Farage wasn't even in the official Leave camp exactly what would you have expected him to sort out? Technically he wasn't responsible for anything and post-referendum he continued to have no role in anything. Even the government knew not to go anywhere near him.
It was he doing the rabble rousing in the years before the referendum, and made sure he was nowhere near when the brown stuff hit the fan and the detail had to be worked out.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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For correctness:
In the wider world, identity cards are not issued or required in Andorra, Australia, the Bahamas, Canada, DR Congo, Japan, Kiribati, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, New Zealand, Palau, Samoa, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, or the Vatican City. Or do you not consider these countries to be civilised?
I have emboldened the DR Congo, as events that have occurred there over the last decade or so casts doubts on the validity of the word "civilised" in the context that you make reference to.
 

AM9

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...It was he doing the rabble rousing in the years before the referendum, and made sure he was nowhere near when the brown stuff hit the fan and the detail had to be worked out.
Gullibility of a large part of the electorate was his friend.
 

edwin_m

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Gullibility of a large part of the electorate was his friend.
I'm not sure blaming the electorate is either helpful or correct.

Most people don't have the time or the inclination to weigh detailed evidence to make their own decision on such a complex policy issue. They look to people they trust to put forward credible arguments. That's why it's so damaging when those people have twisted the truth in ways that go well beyond normal political "promises". That's also why as a remainer I'm still extremely bitter about this and consider that in a just world the likes of Johnson should face charges or at least be disbarred from office.

It appears many remainers remain equally disillusioned. Johnson is the last person to heal these wounds.

Brexit Revives Trust in Government – Among Leavers – What UK Thinks: EU

These two patterns are illustrated by how people have responded when asked whether they trust ‘British governments of any party to place the needs of the nation above the interests of their own political party’. In 2019, a record low of just 15% said that they did so ‘just about always’ or ‘most of the time’. In contrast, both our 2020 surveys put the figure at 23%, a little above the average of 19% recorded in the four BSAs conducted between 2010 and 2013.

However, among Leave voters the figure has risen from 12% in 2019 to 29% and 31% in the two surveys conducted in 2020. In contrast, just 17-19% of Remain voters say they trust governments at least most of the time, no more than a modest increase on the 14% figure recorded in 2019. In contrast, twenty years ago those who were sceptical about EU membership (26%) were noticeably less likely than those who held a favourable view (33%) to say they trusted governments at least most of the time. One pattern of division has been replaced by another.
 

alex397

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Where is this European Utopia being talked about here?
Maybe you can quote whoever is meant to have said ‘European Utopia’ on here?

No sensible person thinks the EU is a ‘utopia’. But many of us can see the benefits of being in the EU.
 

Revilo

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I'm not sure blaming the electorate is either helpful or correct.

Most people don't have the time or the inclination to weigh detailed evidence to make their own decision on such a complex policy issue. They look to people they trust to put forward credible arguments. That's why it's so damaging when those people have twisted the truth in ways that go well beyond normal political "promises". That's also why as a remainer I'm still extremely bitter about this and consider that in a just world the likes of Johnson should face charges or at least be disbarred from office.

It appears many remainers remain equally disillusioned. Johnson is the last person to heal these wounds.

Brexit Revives Trust in Government – Among Leavers – What UK Thinks: EU

What ‘charges’ should Boris face?
 

edwin_m

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What ‘charges’ should Boris face?
That's the problem, there is no legal penalty. But I can't help thinking if people can go to jail for defrauding individuals, there should be some penalty for willfully defrauding an entire country.
 

class ep-09

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Uppps ….
More voters , who knew what they were voting for …


EU farmers are laughing all the way to the bank .
We can’t produce enough to feed ourselves and what we produce ( or used to ) has to be cut back due to shortage of labour, and the shortsge of food caused by that, has to come from somewhere, mostly EU .
 

dosxuk

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But that's fine - as Boris says, we're now aiming for a high-skill, high-wage economy where everyone has skilled jobs and gets a decent wage for them. Fruit picking isn't highly skilled so we don't need those sorts of jobs bringing us as a country down.

Those farmers need to get out of the fields and find a proper skilled job, maybe in cyber, then they won't complain about ruined crops or their salary.
 

Richard Scott

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But that's fine - as Boris says, we're now aiming for a high-skill, high-wage economy where everyone has skilled jobs and gets a decent wage for them. Fruit picking isn't highly skilled so we don't need those sorts of jobs bringing us as a country down.

Those farmers need to get out of the fields and find a proper skilled job, maybe in cyber, then they won't complain about ruined crops or their salary.
Be a bit like Blair's 50% of people should get a degree, what a success that's been!!!
 

REVUpminster

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Uppps ….
More voters , who knew what they were voting for …


EU farmers are laughing all the way to the bank .
We can’t produce enough to feed ourselves and what we produce ( or used to ) has to be cut back due to shortage of labour, and the shortsge of food caused by that, has to come from somewhere, mostly EU .
That's the free market. If the EU want to sell us food subsidised by EU taxpayers then so be it. It will prevent butter mountains and wine lakes of the past. The farmland in Britain will be needed for all these trees we need to plant for zero carbon. Less meat is supposed to be the new norm. Less cows less methane.
 

TravelDream

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This was all very predictable.

Farm work can actually be well paid (It generally piece work so people get paid by the amount picked). However, Brits just don't want to do the work. Who can blame them? It's very tough and highly seasonal. Many people in the rich West, and I include myself here, are simply not cut-out for the back-breaking work.
I know of one farm who used to fly in a gang workers from Romania who'd pick for a couple of months earning enough money to support themselves for the year and then return home. Then there was just a much smaller team who worked year-round. In the fruit picking industry, I don't think that was totally unusual.
The worker supply has been cut-off and there is no replacement.
What's the solution? There isn't one for the soft fruit industry so we are going to see food rotting in fields/ not planted at all. Other farms might move to cattle or wheat which require far fewer workers where it is possible.

That's the free market. If the EU want to sell us food subsidised by EU taxpayers then so be it. It will prevent butter mountains and wine lakes of the past. The farmland in Britain will be needed for all these trees we need to plant for zero carbon. Less meat is supposed to be the new norm. Less cows less methane.

Food is a national security issue. If Britain doesn't produce enough of our own food, we need to rely on others. Just as we have seen recently with gas, that works out well in the good times, less so in the bad times. There's also the whole green issue with food miles being a big greenhouse gas contributor.
 

birchesgreen

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Farm work can actually be well paid (It generally piece work so people get paid by the amount picked). However, Brits just don't want to do the work. Who can blame them? It's very tough and highly seasonal.
Plus most people now live in cities far away from farms, getting to such a job by public transport is mostly impossible. If you can afford a car you probably have a much easier way to make a living.

As with many things the genie is out of the lamp, decades of "poor" people being priced out of the countryside can't be undone in an instant.
 

TravelDream

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Plus most people now live in cities far away from farms, getting to such a job by public transport is mostly impossible. If you can afford a car you probably have a much easier way to make a living.

As with many things the genie is out of the lamp, decades of "poor" people being priced out of the countryside can't be undone in an instant.

Rural house pricing has been a problem for decades. It's not just farming, but the tourist industry that is hurt by it. We saw in the summer restaurants closing in places like Cornwall due to lack of workers. Low pay + high house prices don't really match.

The problem isn't totally insurmountable. Work buses seem to be getting more and more common nowadays and they can be arranged to collect workers from an urban area and take them to a farm. It's quite difficult though with the lack of bus capacity in peak times and the additional cost this adds.
 

birchesgreen

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The problem isn't totally insurmountable. Work buses seem to be getting more and more common nowadays and they can be arranged to collect workers from an urban area and take them to a farm. It's quite difficult though with the lack of bus capacity in peak times and the additional cost this adds.
True it isn't insurmountable though i suspect would need government involvement to at least fund the startup of such services as Farmer Fred Bloggs and his veg fields will find it less affordable than, say, Amazon.
 

alex397

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True it isn't insurmountable though i suspect would need government involvement to at least fund the startup of such services as Farmer Fred Bloggs and his veg fields will find it less affordable than, say, Amazon.
Would they have to be a ‘proper’ bus service though such as those to Amazon?

Some of the farms in Kent have their own small bus and minibus fleets which are used to transport workers around. Usually battered old step entrance buses.
 

birchesgreen

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Would they have to be a ‘proper’ bus service though such as those to Amazon?

Some of the farms in Kent have their own small bus and minibus fleets which are used to transport workers around. Usually battered old step entrance buses.
Where do they pick up from though? A close vicinity or over a wide area? The latter would be required especially for silly o'clock starts.
 

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