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Brexit matters

ainsworth74

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There is no need to have a written one and the continuing fetish to have one is bizarre, because I’ve no idea who you’d all trust to write it.
But even if you do overcome that issue and do have a written one that most people can agree with I'm not actually sure how useful it is. The United States have been discovering recently that a written constitution is actually only useful if the institutions of the state and government actually a) follow it's requirements and b) where they break them that consequences are imposed upon them by the other institutions be they by the legislature, the judiciary or the executive. The US Constitution arguably creaked and bent quite severely at various points in the last few years but just about held as there were enough institution with enough power to keep the show on the road. But it is no panacea having a written constitution to point at if everyone ignores it with no consequence.

I'm sure we don't have to go looking to far for other examples of countries with written constitutions which ended up going down very dark paths despite everything that was happening being unconstitutional...
 
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Butts

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Are any other "foreign pioneers" a bit disconcerted about the fact we get chucked in "with all the others" at Foreign Airports now - at least in Germany and as has just happened to me in Athens.

Our Airports still let the EU go through with us - perhaps we should retaliate ?
 

johncrossley

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Our Airports still let the EU go through with us - perhaps we should retaliate ?

When the UK gets their electronic authorisation system then presumably EU passport holders will have to apply for that to be able to use the same passport queues. Similarly, once the EU system is up and running that will presumably mean no more stamping.
 

WestCoast

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Are any other "foreign pioneers" a bit disconcerted about the fact we get chucked in "with all the others" at Foreign Airports now - at least in Germany and as has just happened to me in Athens.

Our Airports still let the EU go through with us - perhaps we should retaliate ?

I mean we are non-EU citizens now so not sure why any special treatment is expected really? The EU doesn't allow non-EU citizens to go through e-gates as border officers need to check that UK citizens can be admitted under the rules, there's no automatic right of entry anymore. UK citizens have to be checked for compliance with the rules.

If the UK wants to admit EU citizens in the same lines as us and check nothing about them, then that's our Government's decision isn't it, doubt the EU cares much.
 

Berliner

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When The UK was in the EU we already had precedence in letting non EU citizens use the egates in addition to EU/EEA members (despite the cries of "we have no say on who enters our country" from brexiteers...we did). For a few years before we left, the USA, Canada, NZ, Aus, Japan, Singapore and South Korea (may be more) could all use our egates and enter without stamps. We only had egate approval in NZ and Aus at the time from what I could see (and indeed I have no stamps from visits to those places either) and none of them could enter the EU using egates.

So while it would have been nice for the EU to reciprocate this, they had no obligation whatsoever to do so. Indeed most countries we let in without a human check don't give us any special treatment, although some no longer stamp passports.
 

johncrossley

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Looks like the GHIC will be valid in Switzerland soon.




The validity of the EHIC was rolled over in the EU but that didn't include Switzerland or the EFTA states. Reciprocal healthcare with Norway was maintained by another agreement. Can't see any evidence of progress regarding Liechtenstein (unless that is covered by the Swiss deal) or Iceland.


has now been updated to include Switzerland

You can use your GHIC or EHIC in Switzerland to get state-provided, medically necessary healthcare at a reduced cost (or sometimes for free) if you are a:

UK national
Swiss national
EU citizen
refugee
stateless person
dependant or survivor of someone with one of these nationalities or statuses

You can only use your GHIC or EHIC in Switzerland if one of the above applies to you – even if you can use your GHIC or EHIC in the EU.

You may also be asked to show evidence of your nationality when accessing healthcare using a GHIC or EHIC in Switzerland.
 

jon0844

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Have to be impressed when you get added after refugees and stateless persons!
 

XAM2175

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has now been updated to include Switzerland
Not a full acceptance though - the nationality constraints rule out foreign citizens resident in the UK, as indicated by the line "You can only use your GHIC or EHIC in Switzerland if one of the above applies to you – even if you can use your GHIC or EHIC in the EU."
 

johncrossley

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Not a full acceptance though - the nationality constraints rule out foreign citizens resident in the UK, as indicated by the line "You can only use your GHIC or EHIC in Switzerland if one of the above applies to you – even if you can use your GHIC or EHIC in the EU."

That was always an issue with EHIC anyway when it comes to the non-EU states. For example, a non-EU citizen living in Ireland can get an EHIC but he can't use it in Switzerland.


People from non-EU countries who are legally residing in the EU and are covered by a state social security scheme are also eligible for a card. However, nationals from non-EU countries cannot use their EHIC for medical treatment in Denmark, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.
 

XAM2175

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That was always an issue with EHIC anyway when it comes to the non-EU states. For example, a non-EU citizen living in Ireland can get an EHIC but he can't use it in Switzerland.
Oh, I wasn't aware of this - which is somewhat concerning as I'm affected by it :s
 

brad465

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So either we won't be triggering Article 16, or the Government trigger it and commit political suicide when the US scathe us for it:


Threats to invoke Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol will harm the people of Northern Ireland. I call on [the UK] to respect the protocol & protect the Good Friday Agreement. I reiterate: a US-UK trade deal is simply not possible if either the protocol or GFA is rolled back.
 

REVUpminster

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So either we won't be triggering Article 16, or the Government trigger it and commit political suicide when the US scathe us for it:

Did the protocol respect the rights of the protestants or was it a backdoor by the EU for Ireland to annex Northern Island. That would cause trouble. The protestants have always got their money for weapons from American fundraising just as the Catholics did.
 

brad465

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Did the protocol respect the rights of the protestants or was it a backdoor by the EU for Ireland to annex Northern Island. That would cause trouble. The protestants have always got their money for weapons from American fundraising just as the Catholics did.
Perhaps you should have tried harder to stop Boris Johnson and David Frost (our unelected bureaucrat) signing up to the Protocol in the first place if you don't like it, rather than signing up and planning to renege later on, where the latter is far worse than the former.
 

REVUpminster

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Perhaps you should have tried harder to stop Boris Johnson and David Frost (our unelected bureaucrat) signing up to the Protocol in the first place if you don't like it, rather than signing up and planning to renege later on, where the latter is far worse than the former.
I don't think posters on a railway forum have any influence whether we like something or not.
 

brad465

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I don't think posters on a railway forum have any influence whether we like something or not.
True, but if you don't like the protocol then you should hold the view to equally oppose all sides who signed it, which includes both the EU and our own Government.
 

bspahh

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Did the protocol respect the rights of the protestants or was it a backdoor by the EU for Ireland to annex Northern Island. That would cause trouble. The protestants have always got their money for weapons from American fundraising just as the Catholics did.
Where do you think the customs border should be between the Republic of Ireland and the England, Wales & Scotland ?
 

REVUpminster

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It should be between the United Kingdom and the EU if they want to erect customs posts. The UK want open trade so no borders.
 

bspahh

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jon0844

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It should be between the United Kingdom and the EU if they want to erect customs posts. The UK want open trade so no borders.

So this wasn't the Brexit you voted for then. Surprised you didn't mention this before, given the harm it is doing us and the fact there seems to be no solution bar joining a full customs union and allowing freedom of movement.
 

REVUpminster

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How is that going to work with the Good Friday Agreement? With Joe Biden as US president, how will the UK get a US trade agreement without the Good Friday agreement?

Patrick Kielty summarises the issues here
Of course that's a completely independent view? UK have said time and time again they will not build border posts. Can the EU say the same. Even when in the EU cross border smuggling still took place.
 

dosxuk

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It should be between the United Kingdom and the EU if they want to erect customs posts. The UK want open trade so no borders.
No borders between the UK and EU = no borders between the UK and anyone under WTO rules.

I was also under the impression we wanted trade to be to our rules, not just a free-for-all. E.g. being able to put tariffs on import of products we want to encourage being manufactured in the UK, or to prefer UK over non-UK suppliers.

As far as I can tell, the Ireland / NI border sums up the whole "cakeism" ideology that infected the government. We want to be able to set our own rules, but we don't want to live under other peoples rules, then we want a border with those other entities (UK-France), apart from where we don't (UK-Ireland). It was obvious from June 2016 that the NI border was going to cause problems with any sort of deal that didn't involve being in the customs union, unfortunately many people just dismissed those reports as project fear and are now wondering why it's all so complicated and why can't we just do as we want.
 

bspahh

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Of course that's a completely independent view? UK have said time and time again they will not build border posts. Can the EU say the same. Even when in the EU cross border smuggling still took place.
Patrick Kielty is definitely biased when it comes to a discussion of a customs border. His father was shot dead by the UFF when he was going to be a witness against a racketeer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Craig_(loyalist)

You say that the UK won't build border posts. Ten years ago, I was stopped at a police checkpoint on a country lane near the border a few miles from Enniskillen. There were soldiers in a hedgerow a bit along from the checkpoint.

Peace in Northern Ireland is precious and a delicate balance. It is important to study history and learn from it.
 

Gloster

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Patrick Kielty is definitely biased when it comes to a discussion of a customs border. His father was shot dead by the UFF when he was going to be a witness against a racketeer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Craig_(loyalist)
That his father was murdered by the UFF does not make him automatically biased (or even prone to lose track of facts due to emotion). Some people still make an effort to be entirely even-handed or just limit their ire to just those specific people who damaged them. I make no comments on the specific person as I have never knowingly seen, heard or read anything he has said or written.
 

bspahh

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That his father was murdered by the UFF does not make him automatically biased (or even prone to lose track of facts due to emotion). Some people still make an effort to be entirely even-handed or just limit their ire to just those specific people who damaged them. I make no comments on the specific person as I have never knowingly seen, heard or read anything he has said or written.

This is a recent TV program by Patrick Kielty. I haven't watched that, but I've listened to radio programs and read stuff he has written on the same subject.

I said that he is "biased", but not from loyalist vs nationalist view, but on the Island of Ireland before and after the Good Friday Agreement, and after Brexit.
 

AlterEgo

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Kielty is biased, as almost all people in Northern Ireland are to some degree, but not because his dad was murdered. Kielty’s opinions are very middle of the road for soft-nationalists.

He is mostly right but it is difficult to see how the Protocol violates the Belfast Agreement in a material way.
 

alex397

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Post-Brexit immigration rules lead to collapse in EU school trips to UK​

https://www.ft.com/content/3a903e3f-228e-4ea0-9f26-012af4582196



Post-Brexit immigration rules lead to collapse in EU school trips to UK​

Pupils can no longer use group passports, increasing the cost and paperwork involved in travelling​

yesterday
https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Fc56fa4a9-886a-4f27-9fd3-762e07b65714.jpg
Isabelle Regiani displays details of a school trip to the UK from France in 2018. ‘My students are so disappointed; going to England was so exotic for them’ © Régis Suhner/FT
Isabelle Regiani has led class trips to the UK from her school in eastern France throughout her 22-year career as an English teacher, but she will not be bringing her students back any time soon.

Post-Brexit changes to UK immigration rules mean EU schoolchildren can no longer travel on group passports and non-EU students require expensive individual visas, putting a trip to England financially out of reach for some of Regiani’s pupils and thousands of others in mainland Europe.

Regiani’s students at Jean Jaurès middle school in Sarreguemines will instead have to settle for Calais. “It’s disappointing,” she said. “We’ll visit places in touch with English culture and we’ll have a walk on the beach in Calais and we’ll see the cliffs, and I’ll say ‘see there’s the white cliffs of Dover’.”

Large tour companies across the continent have reported a collapse in school bookings to Britain in 2022. Despite the pandemic, relative to the UK inquiries are increasing for other destinations where English is widely spoken in the EU, such as Ireland, Nordic countries and the Netherlands.

The trends bear out warnings to Boris Johnson by French and German school exchange companies last spring that the new immigration rules would erode school cultural exchanges between the EU and UK, with negative consequences for cultural exchanges that were “crucial for the future of our societies”.

Travel industry estimates suggest French and German schools alone send at least 17,000 trips to the UK each year, with French school groups’ direct input into the UK valued at £100m. The British Educational Travel Association, BETA, estimates the total value of the industry, including language schools, at £1.5bn a year.

https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2Ff0576c39-ba5e-462f-8886-74096da213dc.jpg
French school teacher Isabelle Regiani with her class last week © Régis Suhner/FT
A survey last month of French schools by Unosel, the international association for language and homestays, suggested the number of planned trips to the UK had fallen by almost two-thirds. Eurovoyages, a French company that sent 11,000 students to the UK in 2019, said less than 100 students would travel to Britain this year, with clients instead switching to Ireland, Spain and the Netherlands.

Marie Bayol from Verdie Open Class, another French operator, said it had organised more than 800 school groups in 2019 for 36,000 students, but had just 34 groups scheduled for 2022, none of which had confirmed.

The sadness I feel from a personal and business point of view is nothing compared to the level of sadness I feel for the loss of opportunity for cultural exchange for the UK’s youth and the consequent ramifications
Susan Jones, head of UK homestay accommodation provider Linguastay
Leading trip providers in Belgium and Germany have also reported a sharp decline. Christoph Knobloch, head of CTS Reisen, an operator in Lemgo, Germany, usually runs 1,600 school trips annually to the UK. He said demand this year had collapsed, and instead there had been a jump in bookings to Copenhagen and Amsterdam.

He blamed the new UK rules for non EU citizens, which have hit the many Turkish, Russian and refugee children in German schools who used to be able to travel on the EU “list of travellers” scheme, which the UK left as a result of Brexit. “If you need to pay for a passport or a visa on top of the costs of the trip, and the teacher has to organise everything, it is a lot of supervision,” he said.

The scale of the drop-off has dismayed teachers, travel companies and British host families, who say they receive social and financial benefits from providing homestays to visiting EU children.

“The sadness I feel from a personal and business point of view is nothing compared to the level of sadness I feel for the loss of opportunity for cultural exchange for the UK’s youth and the consequent ramifications,” said Susan Jones, the head of Linguastay, a UK homestay accommodation provider.

She said multiple attempts to lobby the government to introduce an exception for school groups had failed. “I can’t help expressing disappointment in our government who are willing to let this happen.”

Jenny Collings, a host in Chester with two grown-up daughters studying modern languages, said exchanges were a welcome source of income but also expanded the horizons of her 12-year-old son, who studies French and German.

https%3A%2F%2Fd1e00ek4ebabms.cloudfront.net%2Fproduction%2F5034169c-5677-4495-86b3-20e0c3231535.jpg
Jenny Collings, back left, with her family and two German students, believes hosting EU students has expanded the horizons of her 12-year-old son, who studies French and German
“It’s exciting, it makes the world feel a bit bigger,” she said. “It’s given my son a real head start. He can often help with a word if a visitor is struggling. He’s confident because of it and is used to mixing with the children.”

Carl Kilvington, who runs Nottingham Host Families, which places students locally, said he had received only three provisional bookings for groups for the coming months, compared with pre-pandemic levels of more than 20 a year.

“Because of the passport and visa issues, with the cost and the faff of having to go to Paris for documents, it’s a real stinger,” he said. “Tour operators are saying if half of their classes have non-EU students, they won’t travel here at all.”

The Home Office said the government recognises the importance of cultural and educational exchanges between the UK and other nations, but ascribed the downturn to the pandemic.

“It is no surprise that in the middle of a global pandemic, which significantly restricted global travel and where public health is paramount, fewer schools are travelling abroad on school trips,” it said.

For Regiani, who has children in her class from mixed socio-economic and ethnic backgrounds, the new rules mean she now has little prospect of taking a group to Britain.

“It’s so sad. We’ve visited Devon and Cornwall, Oxford and Cambridge, Stratford, of course, but it is the host families more than museums and castles that put children in touch with English culture. My students are so disappointed; going to England was so exotic for them.”

Not only really sad to lose these connections, but also bad for the local economies in places like Canterbury, where pupils on school trips from the EU often outnumbered ‘native’ tourists.

I know some think it’s ‘unpatriotic’ to be anti-Brexit, but one of the things I love seeing when we have foreign visitors is their enthusiasm in our local history, architecture and culture.

Interesting to hear England described as ‘exotic’ in the very last sentence though.
 

REVUpminster

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Post-Brexit immigration rules lead to collapse in EU school trips to UK​

https://www.ft.com/content/3a903e3f-228e-4ea0-9f26-012af4582196





Not only really sad to lose these connections, but also bad for the local economies in places like Canterbury, where pupils on school trips from the EU often outnumbered ‘native’ tourists.

I know some think it’s ‘unpatriotic’ to be anti-Brexit, but one of the things I love seeing when we have foreign visitors is their enthusiasm in our local history, architecture and culture.

Interesting to hear England described as ‘exotic’ in the very last sentence though.
Do schools in Europe ready to travel abroad. The first case of covid in my area was school children returning from skiing trip in Italy, Can't believe it's nearly two years ago.
Schools in my area are not going out to carol services in church. Up to 700 primary school children used to come from one school to their local church for two carol services; one for the school and one for the parents. They were closed events and the only time the church was packed out. The church was the only place big enough to assemble all the pupils as it is one of the two biggest primaries in Devon. The 3rd biggest has nearly 600 pupils.
On a related note all the language schools in my area went bust in the first year of covid.
 

Gloster

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There was a bit about this in the Grauniad a month or two ago (actually 4 June, how time flies!). If I remember correctly, one of the major problems was that previously national ID cards were accepted. Now they will have to have a passport and, for quite a few, a visa, both of which will add substantially to the cost. The ‘list of travellers’ scheme which allowed a group, possibly including non-EU nationals, to travel together as part of an organised group without visas has been abolished. Some countries will only allow trips if all members of the group are allowed to take part and our regulations are putting that in doubt.
 

Cloud Strife

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Of course that's a completely independent view? UK have said time and time again they will not build border posts. Can the EU say the same. Even when in the EU cross border smuggling still took place.

The UK won't build border posts, because they know that they would almost certainly get attacked within weeks. Republicans in South Armagh already made that very very clear, which means that the UK simply intends to do what they did up until 1993 - leave the border wide open and simply accept the losses. There's evidence in Hansard that customs officers in the 1970's and 1980's were doing absolutely nothing, and this was also reflected in the way that the customs post on the main Belfast-Dublin road was relocated into Newry after constant attacks at Kileen. The post itself wasn't even on the main road, so you could drive into the UK with a car full of smuggled whatever and no-one would bother you from a customs point of view.

The more serious question is how the EU can protect her own customs border in this case. The UK would be the ones necessitating customs posts by leaving the NI Protocol behind, so Ireland would almost certainly see this as a breach of the Good Friday Agreement. There's simply no elegant solution in this case, and the current one (NI remaining in the EU's customs territory) is a pragmatic one.
 

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