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Brexit matters

bspahh

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5 Jan 2017
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Why do benefits need to be tangible?

Does a man marry his wife for tangible benefits? Why do we all expect voters to vote based on stuff like "how much money will I have"? Are voters perhaps not a little more complex than this? Did we really learn nothing from five years ago?
Tangible benefits help balance things up, when there are some very tangible penalties.

Its the winter. The weather is gloomy. Please give me something to be hopeful about Brexit.
 
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birchesgreen

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Why do benefits need to be tangible?

Does a man marry his wife for tangible benefits? Why do we all expect voters to vote based on stuff like "how much money will I have"? Are voters perhaps not a little more complex than this? Did we really learn nothing from five years ago?
Well plenty of tangible benefits were hawked about during the referendum campaign were they not? Funny how they all seem to have gone away now.
 

REVUpminster

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3 Jan 2021
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Paignton
More people in work, more vacancies. Business soon adapts. EU still reliant on the City of London; no mass exodus of jobs to Europe. With the vacancies up productivity, which this country is said to be so poor at, will have to go up.

Macron will probably come to London again to drum up support for his re-election campaign if we're still France's sixth largest city.
 

edwin_m

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21 Apr 2013
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Why do benefits need to be tangible?

Does a man marry his wife for tangible benefits? Why do we all expect voters to vote based on stuff like "how much money will I have"? Are voters perhaps not a little more complex than this? Did we really learn nothing from five years ago?
There are intangible benefits of staying in the EU too. Some of us would rather be citizens of a forward-looking, outward-looking country that co-operates with its neighbours and is broadly respected. We are well on the way to being a backward-looking, inward-looking country that picks fights with its neighbours and is at best treated as irrelevant.
 

AlterEgo

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There are intangible benefits of staying in the EU too. Some of us would rather be citizens of a forward-looking, outward-looking country
Well I’m glad someone is finally making it about something other than “how much money do I have then and how much do I have now?”
that co-operates with its neighbours and is broadly respected. We are well on the way to being a backward-looking, inward-looking country that picks fights with its neighbours and is at best treated as irrelevant.
Not sure I agree with all the assessment there but broadly I voted Remain on intangible basis of “status quo isn’t so bad, leave it alone”.
 

Doppelganger

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27 Jun 2011
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More people in work, more vacancies. Business soon adapts. EU still reliant on the City of London; no mass exodus of jobs to Europe. With the vacancies up productivity, which this country is said to be so poor at, will have to go up.

Macron will probably come to London again to drum up support for his re-election campaign if we're still France's sixth largest city.
More people in work, maybe, but more vacancies - a sign of a shrinking economy.

More vaccines? Both Germany and France have more fully vaccinated as a proportion of their population, albeit by only a small margin, but seeing the UK was 1st of the starting blocks it's now beginning to wain.

City of London has thus far lost £1 trillion in assets moving to the EU, so not sure that one is a win either.

The Macron comment is a bit if a red herring. So what? The French are having an election and Macron wants more votes. Shame the UK disenfranchised so many of its citizens after 15 years...
 
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edwin_m

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Well I’m glad someone is finally making it about something other than “how much money do I have then and how much do I have now?”

Not sure I agree with all the assessment there but broadly I voted Remain on intangible basis of “status quo isn’t so bad, leave it alone”.
Not necessarily how much money a particular individual has. A more prosperous economy increases the tax base, which can be used to pay for things like railways.
 

REVUpminster

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There are intangible benefits of staying in the EU too. Some of us would rather be citizens of a forward-looking, outward-looking country that co-operates with its neighbours and is broadly respected. We are well on the way to being a backward-looking, inward-looking country that picks fights with its neighbours and is at best treated as irrelevant.
Which neighbours are we picking a fight with. Irish citizens can come and go as they please, register and vote in our elections. Can we do the same? We sold them electricty when the winds did not blow via the interconnectors. France is attacking us over fishing and threatening Jersey. We have complied with the fishing agreements. Brussels is not backing France. Germany has become a tool of Putin forcing it to go back to using Lignite, dirtiest fuel in Europe. Merkel now she is retiring; her inactions are coming home to roost. Migrants being used as a weapon against the EU; given Macron ideas about the channel. Forward looking is not the EU. Protectionism is not outward looking.
 

edwin_m

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Which neighbours are we picking a fight with. Irish citizens can come and go as they please, register and vote in our elections. Can we do the same? We sold them electricty when the winds did not blow via the interconnectors. France is attacking us over fishing and threatening Jersey. We have complied with the fishing agreements. Brussels is not backing France. Germany has become a tool of Putin forcing it to go back to using Lignite, dirtiest fuel in Europe. Merkel now she is retiring; her inactions are coming home to roost. Migrants being used as a weapon against the EU; given Macron ideas about the channel. Forward looking is not the EU. Protectionism is not outward looking.
Repudiating the NI Protocol, which this government agreed and signed up to, destroys our international credibility. I expect you believe that the threats from France and the USA keeping steel tariffs on UK steel (when they have removed them on EU steel) are spontaneous acts of spite by these nations.
 

class ep-09

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Joined
5 Sep 2013
Messages
257
Which neighbours are we picking a fight with. Irish citizens can come and go as they please, register and vote in our elections. Can we do the same? We sold them electricty when the winds did not blow via the interconnectors. France is attacking us over fishing and threatening Jersey. We have complied with the fishing agreements. Brussels is not backing France. Germany has become a tool of Putin forcing it to go back to using Lignite, dirtiest fuel in Europe. Merkel now she is retiring; her inactions are coming home to roost. Migrants being used as a weapon against the EU; given Macron ideas about the channel. Forward looking is not the EU. Protectionism is not outward looking.
You have forgotten to add that EU is about to collapse….
and UK got out just in nick of time …..

that and some other nonsense about “they need us more than we need them “….
 

Doppelganger

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27 Jun 2011
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196
Which neighbours are we picking a fight with. Irish citizens can come and go as they please, register and vote in our elections. Can we do the same?
Yes, British citizens can go and live in Ireland and vote in their elections. What has this got to do with the EU exactly?

We sold them electricty when the winds did not blow via the interconnect
Who sold electricity to whom here? This isn't clear who you have beef with. The UK are a net importer of electricity by the way, so when that interconnector went down the energy prices spiked in the UK versus mainland Europe.
France is attacking us over fishing and threatening Jersey. We have complied with the fishing agreements. Brussels is not backing France.
This just demonstrates how little power the UK really has in international disputes and the reality is that Johnson sold British fisherman down the river and those fisherman who thought there would be no foreign fishing were simply lied to.

BTW, Brussels will always back an EU state over a non-EU state. That's how it works. The UK has lost all its influence and certainly used up any good faith which may have been remaining.

Germany has become a tool of Putin forcing it to go back to using Lignite, dirtiest fuel in Europe. Merkel now she is retiring; her inactions are coming home to roost. Migrants being used as a weapon against the EU; given Macron ideas about the channel

Germany went back to fossil fuels after the whole Fukushima disaster. They shut down their nuclear power stations, that is why they are burning lignite, but yes, it was all Putin's doing if it makes you feel better.

You better not look too closely at Russian involvement in the UK or how much money is invested into UK property as then you may really question your own beliefs.

In relation to migrants, I assume you mean asylum seekers, so what is your point here?

Assuming it was asylum seekers you were talking about, then the UK by virtue of being out of the EU is no longer part of the Dublin agreement and so France, or any other EU state, has any obligation to do anything about any asylum seekers who enter the UK.

Surely you must be aware of all this already, or are you just making sweeping statements in the hope of muddying the waters so much that some believe fiction to be fact?
 

REVUpminster

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Without me you would have had nobody to snipe at in the last fortnight. So I've let you get it off your chests, keep up your good work. See you soon.
 

Darandio

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Turkey prices were up 20-25% on last year.

It was an increase in that range on the premium range labels, for the majority who buy standard fayre the increase was more like 7%. But then most other parts of the dinner were up around 5% so turkey price increases weren't out of the ordinary.

There wasn't a shortage though, that was the point.
 

Mojo

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Not sure this has aged well
And the threat of a Christmas tree shortage too; round here they were heavily reduced come the 20th and then being given away a few days later!

Plenty of sausages wrapped in bacon too.
 

TravelDream

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7 Aug 2016
Messages
603
It was an increase in that range on the premium range labels, for the majority who buy standard fayre the increase was more like 7%. But then most other parts of the dinner were up around 5% so turkey price increases weren't out of the ordinary.

This isn't true. Aldi's Turkey was up 20%. Tesco's was up 25%.
We aren't talking Harrods or Fortnum & Mason.
 

Darandio

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This isn't true. Aldi's Turkey was up 20%. Tesco's was up 25%.
We aren't talking Harrods or Fortnum & Mason.

I wasn't talking about Harrods or Fortnum & Mason either, it was supermarket premium brands which were up by that percentage. The average turkey increase was 7%, some were as little as 1-2%.

Incidentally Aldi won out on the cheapest Turkey of all supermarkets yet again this year but it was smaller.
 
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TravelDream

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7 Aug 2016
Messages
603
I wasn't talking about Harrods or Fortnum & Mason either, it was supermarket premium brands which were up by that percentage. The average turkey increase was 7%.

If the Aldi own brand frozen turkey is a 'premium brand', then I will eat my hat.
The Tesco one was the standard Tesco model too, not Finest or Organic or whatever.
 

Darandio

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If the Aldi own brand frozen turkey is a 'premium brand', then I will eat my hat.
The Tesco one was the standard Tesco model too, not Finest or Organic or whatever.

It really doesn't matter. You said turkey prices were 20-25% higher this year. Kantar analysis suggests it was nowhere near, at least not on average. Obviously selected products are going to be higher or lower than that figure.
 

jon0844

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1 Feb 2009
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Not sure this has aged well

We imported turkeys from France and Poland and didn't have enough staff here to process our own, and they were more expensive.

Then, due to Covid concerns, people didn't shop much before Christmas (our local Sainsbury's and Tesco were near empty and the shelves were full of unsold stock that I expect has been massively discounted since). Some maybe couldn't shop as they were isolating.

It was quite surreal seeing no queues to get into retail parks and M&S being open to 2300 and it was myself and my wife in the clothing section feeling very uncomfortable because we were hugely outnumbered by (very bored) staff. The food hall was fairly busy, for a normal day but not two days before Christmas.

So, there are many factors so I don't think anything can be considered a Brexit win or fail here.

In any case, the fun starts from Jan 1st..
 

Doppelganger

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Not sure this has aged well
So turkeys had to be imported, and the jobs which were done domestically had to be done in other countries instead.

The UK seems great at sending profits to other countries and of course delighting in less tax being taken from UK workers. Instead foreign governments' tax receipts are buoyed through their increased workforce and increased exports.
 

adrock1976

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10 Dec 2013
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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Remainers are the fantasists on here but it's somewhere to let off steam. The Tories won a London constituency on a 51% vote of a turnout of 34%. The Rejoin the EU, LibDems , and Greens lost their deposit. Labour got 34%; I wonder what his views were on the EU.

It will be said Old Bexley is a Tory stronghold but London has become a Labour city with the huge "white flight " to the shires. Boris did buck the trend by defeating Ken Livingstone twice. Vote Leave won the referendum and Boris won the general election. The voters spoke and will again. The EU is not doing much to change voters minds here.

What does that mean? What tangible benefit to staying in? Pay bigger contribution?

Labour were kicked out in 2010 replaced by a Tory/LibDem coalition. Cameron promised a referendum on the EU, only the second since the referendum on EEC. Other countries had a referendum on the Maestricht treaty on the founding of the EU; more than one till the result was what was wanted by the politicians. Tories win in 2015, referendum takes place; out wins. Theresa May goes to the electorate with her policy of stay in the EU in all but name. Effectively loses her majority. Boris goes to the country with get Brexit done and wins a huge majority. The voters spoke. Even in pro EU Scotland the voters just stop short of giving the SNP a majority that they have to go coalition with the Greens.

Tell that to the voters who spoke in 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2019. I am sure they are all avid readers of a railway forum. DigitalSpy, much more widely read, closed all there political threads in March 2021 because they became so divisive and moderators not that impartial.

To pick up on some points here (I'm not having a go here just to be clear):

In 2010, it was the turn of New Labour to concede defeat as they had ben in power since 1997. Before then, the Conservatives were in power from 1979-97.

The EU referendum in 2016 although leave got the most votes, it was not overwhelming as it was around 51%-49% and split thoughout the regions of the UK, meaning that it was very divisive. I still maintain that if Cameron had thought it through properly (based on the divisive nature of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014), he would have had it in legislation that for any change to the status quo, a minimum of 75% must have voted Leave for it to have had an overwhelming clear majority which would not have been so divisive.

Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Gibraltar had all voted overwhelmingly to Remain, while large parts of England and Wales had voted to Leave. After the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 (and before then), Cameron announced live on TV that if Scotland voted No to becoming independent in 2014, it would still be a member of the EU. Also, Cameron also publically announced that he wanted Scotland to be a leader of the Union.

Regarding the SNP going into coalition with the Greens, the devolved parts of the UK have a proportional representational voting system, of which the Scottish Parliament uses the Additional Member System calculated using the d'Hont method (the more constituencies you win in a region, the less likely you get any more MSPs on the regional list). The local councils have multi member wards with the Single Transferable Vote system of proportional representation that is used, where candidates are ranked in order of preference. At least the Scottish Parliament does get governments that it has voted for, unlike in General Elections (that still use First Past the Post) that no matter how Scotland votes in General Elections, it has not had the government it has voted for since 1979 (similar can be applied to my native West Midlands), of which I have listed below:

1979 - Mainly Labour, got Conservatives
1983 - Mainly Labour, got Conservatives
1987 - Mainly Labour, got Conservatives
1992 - Mainly Labour, got Conservatives (only just, due to a late swing in the day to the Conservatives)
1997 - Mainly Labour, got New Labour (which were not new, and were most certainly not Labour)
2001 - Mainly Labour, got New Labour (which were not new, and were most certainly not Labour)
2005 - Mainly Labour, got New Labour (which were not new, and were most certainly not Labour)
2010 - Mainly Labour (with the only constituency changing hands was my former one of Glasgow North East from Speaker to Labour), got Conservative-Lib Dem coalition
2015 - Overwhelmingly SNP (with 56 out of the 59 constituencies, with the remaining 3 being 1 each to Labour, Conservative, and Lib Dem), got Conservatives (only just, due to errors in the polling methods)
2017 - Mainly SNP (reduced to 41 constituencies), got Conservatives with some support from DUP
2019 - Mainly SNP (increased to 48 constituencies, including the unseating of the Lib Dem leader at the time Jo Swinson. Her lips moved with every single word she spoke which explains how Swinson lost her seat), got Conservatives

No matter what the voting pattern of Scotland is at General Elections, since 1979, Scotland has not had the government it has voted for. Although I do understand the reasons how Scottish nationalism has become fashionable nowadays, I do not support the SNP's version of independence. I would like to see the whole of Great Britain (assuming Northern Ireland is returned back to the Irish) having progressive federalism, but this topic would be better for the thread I started a while ago in this section of the forum rather than here.
 

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