• Dear Guest, and welcome to RailUK Forums. Our non-railway discussion forums are currently restricted until members have five or more posts, and you will not be able to make a new thread or reply to an existing one in this section until you have made five or more posts elsewhere on the forum.

Brexit matters

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
Two nuclear powers are not going to come to blows over fish. Though probably best to get your fallout shelter ready, just in case.
Ironically, while there is zero chance that we'll go to war with France, I fully expect that if nuclear war does kick off it will be caused by something trivial. Or by accident. No sane person would deliberately bring on the end of human civilisation.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ABB125

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2016
Messages
2,304
Location
Worcestershire/Gloucestershire border
You forgot to mention Falkland Islands to Argentina.

Talking of the Daily Telegraph, does anyone know what the current daily recorded circulation figures are for that particular newspaper, as it seems to be mentioned a number of times in different website threads.
I don't know about circulation, but I do know that as a student I'm entitled to an annual subscription for £25, which is excellent value for money! Unfortunately, I don't have the time nor inclination to read a newspaper daily (and that's not because it's the Telegraph; it's what we've always had at home, so I'm very accustomed to it).
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
Talking of the Daily Telegraph, does anyone know what the current daily recorded circulation figures are for that particular newspaper, as it seems to be mentioned a number of times in different website threads.
Here you go:
 

JamesT

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
1,081
On Twitter people were saying the French were about to cut the electricity supply to the island, while others seemed to think it was going to lead to war. I'm sure someone started out by trolling, before realising that some people would take it seriously.

It was slightly more than just people on Twitter, a French minister mentioned it as a possible response in a statement to their parliament. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56984886

I think they realised it would be a ludicrous overreaction and I don’t think I’ve seen the French repeat the threat since.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
It was slightly more than just people on Twitter, a French minister mentioned it as a possible response in a statement to their parliament. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56984886

I think they realised it would be a ludicrous overreaction and I don’t think I’ve seen the French repeat the threat since.
It's the usual international negotiation tactic. You get 'an official' to make a comment on the worst possible outcome, but make sure it's someone who is speaking slightly outside their official capacity so that it can be walked back quite easily.
 

JamesT

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
1,081
I don't know about circulation, but I do know that as a student I'm entitled to an annual subscription for £25, which is excellent value for money! Unfortunately, I don't have the time nor inclination to read a newspaper daily (and that's not because it's the Telegraph; it's what we've always had at home, so I'm very accustomed to it).

You can probably also get free access to the FT as well through being associated with a university.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,930
Location
UK
Question Time apparently had someone on who said the Navy should have sunk the French boats, while Darren Grimes was stating a war with France might be a good thing. While I'm sure the latter Tweet was tongue-in-cheek joke to wind people up, you can be assured there were some nice nationalistic responses from those who took it seriously.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
3,469
Location
Elginshire
Question Time apparently had someone on who said the Navy should have sunk the French boats, while Darren Grimes was stating a war with France might be a good thing. While I'm sure the latter Tweet was tongue-in-cheek joke to wind people up, you can be assured there were some nice nationalistic responses from those who took it seriously.
I had Question Time on in the background, although I wasn't really paying much attention until I heard some woman saying "typical French" this and that. I turned the telly off at that point. My thoughts were "typical Xenophobic Brexiteer - sod off"!

There seems to be a certain section of the population which is rubbing its hands with glee and perhaps looking forward to some kind of conflict, just so that us plucky Brits can show those damn foreigners who's boss.

I see the BBC reporting the UK sending gunboats and the French patrol boats. This is a Jersey/French problem as we are only responsible for their defence as we were for the Falklands. It does amuse that paperwork is upsetting the French.

Ah, there it is!
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
29,507
Location
Yorks
It seems a lot of kerfuffle for what is essentially a "snagging issue" of the Brexit deal, something that was always going to emerge - particularly when the deal was concluded in a bit of a hurry.

What would be sensible would be to say to the French "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We understand that this is a problem for you and would be like to get together with yourselves and the EU to try to work on some of the snagging issues that have arisen as part of the deal, including some that are affecting us".
 

REVUpminster

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
302
Location
Paignton
What has happened to all those Brexiteers that have changed their mind? Hartlepool. Remainers live in the dream world. The Greens and Liberal Democrats both got less than 400 votes.

The EU is the gift that just goes on giving.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,930
Location
UK
What has happened to all those Brexiteers that have changed their mind? Hartlepool. Remainers live in the dream world. The Greens and Liberal Democrats both got less than 400 votes.

The EU is the gift that just goes on giving.

Until Boris and Priti start rounding up all those foreigners and sending them home (hint; isn't going to happen), these working class towns are going to continue voting Tory because thus far they won't see Brexit as actually having been done. I mean, where's all the extra money and prosperity we were promised?

When they can travel again and perceive the barriers they'll encounter within the EU as being the EU punishing us, they'll continue to vote Tory in the vain belief that they can carry out their promises.

Rest assured, they'll finally come to realise they were conned.. but I'd give it maybe 5 or 10 years. Then, like the Iraq war, you'll start to see more and people magically deny they ever voted for it as the realisation sets in.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,395
Location
Nottingham
What has happened to all those Brexiteers that have changed their mind? Hartlepool. Remainers live in the dream world. The Greens and Liberal Democrats both got less than 400 votes.

The EU is the gift that just goes on giving.
2019: Tories 28.9%, Brexit Party 25.8%, total for Brexit-supporting parties 58.7%
2021: Tories 51.9%, Brexit Party imploded, total for Brexit-supporting parties 51.9%

Simplistic headline: Tories take Red Wall seat in shock by-election defeat for opposition
Actual situation: Support for Brexit-favouring parties reduces in formerly solid Brexit-supporting constituency
 

REVUpminster

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2021
Messages
302
Location
Paignton
2019: Tories 28.9%, Brexit Party 25.8%, total for Brexit-supporting parties 58.7%
2021: Tories 51.9%, Brexit Party imploded, total for Brexit-supporting parties 51.9%

Simplistic headline: Tories take Red Wall seat in shock by-election defeat for opposition
Actual situation: Support for Brexit-favouring parties reduces in formerly solid Brexit-supporting constituency
My maths make it 54.7% on a reduced turnout. But let's not let your facts get in the way of a good story.
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
967
Location
UK
It would appear to have been just a couple of boats.
The Jersey Fishermen's Association were certainly not backing them, according to interviews on the radio today.
Yes, it probably was a minority. But it does show this topic is much more nuanced than the ‘France vs UK’ nationalistic cobblers (of course Jersey isn’t in the UK, but it seems the flag-wavers are not interested in this fact)
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
3,925
Location
Birmingham
54.7% is still less than 58.7%. A reduced turnout means even fewer people voting for Brexit-supporting parties.

And by the same token presumably fewer people voting for Remain-supporting parties since there was a reduced turnout and also since the LibDem vote appears to have collapsed in that area?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,605
Location
Redcar
It was slightly more than just people on Twitter, a French minister mentioned it as a possible response in a statement to their parliament. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56984886

I think they realised it would be a ludicrous overreaction and I don’t think I’ve seen the French repeat the threat since.

There is also an element, I think, of all politics being local (shock horror, politics doesn't end at the English Channel and other countries have their own political considerations :lol:;)). Macron is having a bit of a torrid time of it at the moment. The Yellow Vest protests never really came to end (Covid-19 got in the way rather than the matter being resolved), there's an election coming up in 2022 for both the Presidency and the Parliament and, whilst it has been getting a little better of late, Macron still has more people disapproving of him than approving plus when polling him against Le Pen (leader of a euro sceptic, right wing which I have the sense is a bit UKIP in broad terms) it's basically neck and neck with Macron usually just getting over the line by less than 10% (compared to the 30%+ last time these two competed for the presidency is quite a drop).

So with that background having a bit of a dust up with 'les rosbifs' might well also be trying to play to the gallery at home a little bit.
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
602
Yes, it probably was a minority. But it does show this topic is much more nuanced than the ‘France vs UK’ nationalistic cobblers (of course Jersey isn’t in the UK, but it seems the flag-wavers are not interested in this fact)

It’s not a France vs U.K. issue.
It’s the French fishermen not complying with the new requirements set out in the EU-U.K. treaty.
Jersey are solely responsible for issuing those licences in their waters and are confident they’re doing it to the letter of the new rules.
The French government, now with the reported backing of the EU, or at least UVdL, say Jersey are putting in additional conditions not contained in the treaty, which appears not to be the case at all.

The Jersey Fishermen have said the French fishermen have been flouting the EU fishing rules for years and getting away with it.
They’ve been powerless to do anything about it as the French fishermen have the backing of French politicians.
It’s the overt threats to Jersey that has prompted them to ask the U.K. government for support, which they have given, not only by deploying the fisheries protection vessels, but by initiating diplomatic efforts to resolve the dispute.
There’s no “gunboat diplomacy“ involved.
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
967
Location
UK
It’s not a France vs U.K. issue.
It’s the French fishermen not complying with the new requirements set out in the EU-U.K. treaty.
Jersey are solely responsible for issuing those licences in their waters and are confident they’re doing it to the letter of the new rules.
The French government, now with the reported backing of the EU, or at least UVdL, say Jersey are putting in additional conditions not contained in the treaty, which appears not to be the case at all.

The Jersey Fishermen have said the French fishermen have been flouting the EU fishing rules for years and getting away with it.
They’ve been powerless to do anything about it as the French fishermen have the backing of French politicians.
It’s the overt threats to Jersey that has prompted them to ask the U.K. government for support, which they have given, not only by deploying the fisheries protection vessels, but by initiating diplomatic efforts to resolve the dispute.
There’s no “gunboat diplomacy“ involved.
I don’t disagree with this at all, my point was that few seem to be looking beyond the inaccurate un-nuanced ‘France vs UK’ stuff I keep seeing in less enlightened quarters. Like you say, it is largely not a France vs UK issue, and is much more nuanced than that, as shown by what you are saying here.

This probably wouldn’t be happening though if it wasn’t for the UK’s decision to go ahead with Brexit, and to rush it through rather than do it properly.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,395
Location
Nottingham
And by the same token presumably fewer people voting for Remain-supporting parties since there was a reduced turnout and also since the LibDem vote appears to have collapsed in that area?
You could also argue that, but my point was that the simplistic statement that Brexit is still delivering doesn't really hold. There are other reasons Labour and the LibDems have fallen out of favour, which aren't really for this thread.
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
967
Location
UK
Reports that EU citizens arriving in the UK for job interviews (which is apparently legal) are being held in airport detention rooms for 48 hours, sent to immigration removal centres and having mobile phones confiscated. Seems a rather excessive treatment, but not particualrly surprising to me with the slippery slope this country seems to be on. However, it is what this country voted for, with immigration being a key concern for many Brexit supporters.

A bit different to how EU citizens were treated before Brexit, eh? Whether we like it or not, Europeans are our neighbours, and we should cooperate and treat each other with respect.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled

EU citizens arriving in UK being locked up and expelled​

Europeans with job interviews tell of detentions and expulsions despite rules allowing non-visa holders to attend interviews


Giles Tremlett in Madrid and Lisa O'Carroll
Thu 13 May 2021 15.13 BST




EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.
Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

Confusion about whether EU citizens can explore the UK job market and then go home with an offer in order to apply for a work visa has added to the growing number of detentions. In other cases, visitors are clearly breaking rules, such as those now barring EU citizens from taking up unpaid internships.
At least a dozen European citizens – mostly young women – were detained and expelled at Gatwick airport alone over 48 hours last week, two female Spanish detainees told the Guardian. Some were sent two hours’ drive away to Yarl’s Wood detention centre in Bedfordshire, where a Covid scare meant they were confined to their rooms.
Other countries whose citizens have been held at a UK airport or detention centre include Italy, France, Bulgaria and Greece. It is understood one French man was held at Edinburgh airport for 48 hours recently, while the Bulgarian ambassador to the UK confirmed a number of his nationals had been held at immigration removal centres.
The two Spanish women were detained at Gatwick on 2 and 3 May after arriving on separate flights from Valencia and Bilbao.
María, 25, from Valencia, said that like many of those detained, she thought she was free to explore the job market at least until October, especially since she had lived and worked in the UK before. María said that when Border Force officials at Gatwick said they would expel her, she offered to pay for a flight home the same day. Instead, she was sent to Yarl’s Wood, where she spent three anxious days. “I’m still in shock,” she said.



When the Guardian first spoke to María on Friday she was at Yarl’s Wood and scared that she had been exposed to Covid. Later that day she was released and ordered to quarantine at her sister’s home in Bexleyheath, in south-east London, until 17 May. Border Force officials kept her passport.
“So much time is being wasted,” she said. “The worst thing was that no one at Yarl’s Wood could tell me what was going to happen. My freedom had been taken away and I couldn’t get legal advice.”
Eugenia, a 24-year-old woman from the Basque region of northern Spain, reached Gatwick on Sunday 2 May on a flight from Bilbao. She planned to look for a job offer, go home to apply for a visa and then return to live with her Spanish boyfriend, an NHS worker who has been in the UK for four years. “I had a return ticket and had filled out an online travel form in which I explained all that,” she said.
At Gatwick, Eugenia had her mobile phone taken away and was locked in a holding room for 24 hours, sleeping on a fold-out bed with half a dozen others. Then she was put on a flight to Barcelona along with another Spanish woman who had arrived for a job interview.
Between them, María and Eugenia (who asked that their real names not be used) said they met a dozen other European citizens detained for similar reasons, accounting for half of the people in Gatwick’s detention rooms. They included two Spaniards with job interviews, a French woman with an internship and a Czech woman who had flown in from Mexico and was being sent back there.
“The Czech girl was desperate,” said Eugenia, who spent part of her 24 hours locked up in tears. “Like me, she knew we couldn’t start work immediately, but understood that you could look for jobs and come back to the UK later after obtaining a visa. When she offered to pay for a flight back to Prague, they said no – that they were expelling her to Mexico.”
Other travellers with Italian, Portuguese and eastern European passports were also being expelled.


Luke Piper, a former immigration solicitor who works for the3million campaign group that monitors the post-Brexit treatment of EU citizens in the UK, said rules were confusing and accused the Border Force of being overly aggressive. “There is absolutely no need to send someone to Yarl’s Wood if they can stay with family until the expulsion,” he said.
Eugenia said she was told her airline, Vueling, was to blame. “We had all read the website and filled out the forms. Then they tell you that it is all the fault of the airline, which shouldn’t have let us board.”
Vueling denied airlines were meant to vet EU travellers. “It is officials in the country of destination who establish and enforce entry requirements,” a spokesperson, Tania Galesi, said.
Eugenia said cabin staff on her return flight had seen several similar cases. Frontier police who met them at Barcelona confirmed this. “They didn’t understand why it was happening. British citizens entering Spain are not treated that way.”
Eugenia said the experience was so traumatic that she had given up on trying to live with her boyfriend. “I’m not going back,” she said. “I don’t want to go through that again. The idea of moving to Britain appals me.”
Eight MEPs have written to the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, to express concern that the Home Office approach is in breach of the “spirit” of the Brexit deal.
“Sending young EU nationals to immigration detention centres is grossly disproportionate and breaches the spirit of good cooperation we would expect,” said Dacion Cioloș, president of the Renew Europe group of MEPs.
The Home Office said the new rules were clear and could be easily checked online. “We require evidence of an individual’s right to live and work in the UK,” a spokesperson said. Yet Home Office advice explicitly states that visitors without work visas may “attend meetings, conferences, seminars, interviews” and “negotiate and sign deals and contracts”.
The prime minister’s official spokesperson said: “We are cooperating very much in the spirit and the terms of the agreements we have with the EU.”
Araniya Kogulathas, a barrister with the NGO Bail for Immigration Detainees, said EU citizens were experiencing Britain’s hostile environment for immigration.
“The Home Office need to explain why exploring the job market or attending an interview justifies refusing EEA nationals entry at the border when immigration rules specifically allow visitors to – among other things – attend meetings, conferences and interviews,” she said. “It seems to be detaining people despite being unclear of its own position. This is yet another illustration of the normalisation of immigration detention in the UK and the Home Office’s disdain for the right to liberty.”
Detainees complained that they were not informed of their right to seek legal assistance. María only learned about the Yarl’s Wood Covid scare from her sister, who was barred from visiting because of it. The Home Office denied there had been an “outbreak”.
Spanish officials said they were monitoring the situation and a European Commission spokesperson said it was concerned about “the conditions and duration of retention” while adding that only a “small number of EU citizens” seemed to have been affected.
The Bulgarian ambassador to the UK, Marin Raykov, confirmed his consulate had dealt with “several cases, when a return flight was not available within 24 hours the arrival time … several Bulgarian citizens were detained at an immigration removal centre”.
He said citizens needed to be given a chance to contact the embassy. “The embassy expects to be promptly notified by the Home Office/Border Force regarding the temporary detention … so consular officials may provide them with the necessary advice, inform their relatives in Bulgaria if necessary, as well as assist in arranging their speedy return to Bulgaria.”
The Home Office has not released data on border detentions since Brexit came into force in January and it remains unclear how many of those detained have been able, or willing, to contact their consulates.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
28,023
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Reports that EU citizens arriving in the UK for job interviews (which is apparently legal) are being held in airport detention rooms for 48 hours, sent to immigration removal centres and having mobile phones confiscated. Seems a rather excessive treatment, but not particualrly surprising to me with the slippery slope this country seems to be on. However, it is what this country voted for, with immigration being a key concern for many Brexit supporters.

A bit different to how EU citizens were treated before Brexit, eh? Whether we like it or not, Europeans are our neighbours, and we should cooperate and treat each other with respect.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled
If those without a visa need an interview, why cannot the interview be held in an EC country? More to the point, why are they not holders of a valid visa?
 

alex397

Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
967
Location
UK
If those without a visa need an interview, why cannot the interview be held in an EC country? More to the point, why are they not holders of a valid visa?
The article says that Home Office rules state that they don't need a visa to attend interviews in the UK.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
If those without a visa need an interview, why cannot the interview be held in an EC country? More to the point, why are they not holders of a valid visa?
The pedant in me wants to say "Because the EC was replaced by the EU a couple decades back...", but more importantly that highlights exactly the problem. Ignoring Covid-related restrictions, UK interviewers would have no problem going to an EU country to conduct an interview, so why should an EU national have to get a visa or jump through other hoops to attend an interview in the UK?

After all, I thought one of the main arguments for Brexit was control of our immigration system to allow in only the best and brightest?
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,930
Location
UK
Sadly I can't imagine Brexit voters are going to be upset about this, and given the fact they all love to treat our relationship with the EU as some sort of war, I bet they love the fact that people are being kept in detention.

I wonder what they'd say if the EU reciprocates and dares hold a British citizen?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,653
Location
Scotland
I wonder what they'd say if the EU reciprocates and dares hold a British citizen?
They wouldn't dare to. After all the front of the BLUE* passport says "Her Britannic Majesty demands and commands all those who it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hinderance and to render any and all assistance needed or we'll be sending in the gunboats in the name of the Empire". Or something like that, no?

*They're black. And made in Poland by a French company. Got to keep reminding them of that at every opportunity.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,395
Location
Nottingham
Seeing how many EU citizens there are in the engineering community in the UK, I can see one of our productive exporting industries heading down the drain.
 

XAM2175

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2016
Messages
1,144
Location
Glasgow
Her Britannic Majesty demands and commands
Oh please, she's delegated that little responsibility - it's "Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires..."

Even I get a better one; "The Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia, being the representative in Australia of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, requests..."

Seeing how many EU citizens there are in the engineering community in the UK, I can see one of our productive exporting industries heading down the drain.
I've seen it suggested that we might still see a fair number of people pack up and move out over the course of the year - what with the various travel restrictions still in place and the fact the full set of residency restrictions don't apply to EU citizens until the end of June. The Home Office is still resolutely refusing to issue physical proof-of-status documents to people using the EU Settlement Scheme, and that's not an enviable position to be in now that the Hostile Environment has turned every landlord and HR staffer in the country into a border guard.
 

Top