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Brexit matters

najaB

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Oh please, she's delegated that little responsibility - it's "Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires..."
Oh, I know that's what they really say. but when has support for Brexit had any relationship with reality?
 
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GusB

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I saw a report tonight on telly this evening (I think it was ITV News) about Portugal gearing up for a large influx of British tourists. Perhaps a few Brits being detained for 48 hours at the airport before deportation back to the UK would focus some minds.
 

SouthernR

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I saw a report tonight on telly this evening (I think it was ITV News) about Portugal gearing up for a large influx of British tourists. Perhaps a few Brits being detained for 48 hours at the airport before deportation back to the UK would focus some minds.
Alternatively, should there be any British players in the associated teams without visas ...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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i can’t imagine any company would consider sending their HR people to do interviews in the EU , especially if there is number of applicants to be interviewed ( say 20 ).
I think that when this particular discussion began, it concerned EU citizens who were applying for jobs, so in that case, if the interviews were held in a EU country, that would obviate the interviewees with no visas having to travel to Britain with all the hassle that now seems to be the case, where one part of the British establishment appears to be totally oblivious to what another part has decreed.
 
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YorkshireBear

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I think that when this particular discussion began, it concerned EU citizens who were applying for jobs, so in that case, if the interviews were held in a EU country, that would obviate the interviewees with no visas having to travel to Britain with all the hassle that now seems to be the case, where one part of the British establishment appears to be totally oblivious to what another part has decreed.
The point still stands that home office rules say EU nationals don't need a visa for interviews. So why are we detaining them?
 

YorkshireBear

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Quite. Seems like a case of a Government department not following its own rules.
Aye. The guardian seems to be suggesting it's intentional disregard for rules. I'll be honest as much I distrust Tories especially when it comes to immigration matters. I'd put my house on it being incompetence rather than malicious.
 

yorksrob

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Aye. The guardian seems to be suggesting it's intentional disregard for rules. I'll be honest as much I distrust Tories especially when it comes to immigration matters. I'd put my house on it being incompetence rather than malicious.

Yes indeed. We shouldn't rule out cock-up as opposed to conspiracy.
 
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alex397

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I would agree it is probably due to incompetence in my opinion.

From those reports, I don’t think it’s a particularly humane way to treat people, especially compared to before Brexit when there was no need to have a visa when travelling from an EU country, and so they wouldn’t have been taken to Yarls Wood with no idea what was happening to them and their mobile phone confiscated.
It seems like a huge step backwards to me, but then I know many people will support a hostile environment, even to our neighbours.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I agree. Cock-ups and Boris Johnson go hand-in-hand, so I would also assume this over conspiracy until proven otherwise.
Can you clarify the connection that you allude to concerning the Johnson involvement in this particular matter or should the senior civil servant of the department in question be the one to nominate for the current hiatus.

From those reports, I don’t think it’s a particularly humane way to treat people, especially compared to before Brexit when there was no need to have a visa when travelling from an EU country, and so they wouldn’t have been taken to Yarls Wood with no idea what was happening to them and their mobile phone confiscated.
It seems like a huge step backwards to me, but then I know many people will support a hostile environment, even to our neighbours.
Prior to Brexit, people in the EU seemed to have freedom of movement in the EU area, but now Brexit is in force, there will be instances where this matter will arise. A recent matter to cite being that of the French fishermen who now find themselves having the lack of freedom to fish in Channel Islands waters that they used to have and now need certain new permit requirements, which caused them to make their protest last week.

It is noticeable that mention of the phrase "humane way" now enters the discussion. Nothing of the kind, people just don't seem to appreciate the hard facts that Brexit involves. What do members of this website feel about those who work hand in hand with people smugglers in order that they can cross the Channel in inflateables from the EU country of France illegally with neither visas nor proof that they are not infected with any of the mutant strains of the Covid-19 virus that could infect people in the British coastal areas where they aim for. Are they acting in a "humane way"?
 
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najaB

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Can you clarify the connection that you allude to concerning the Johnson involvement in this particular matter or should the senior civil servant of the department in question be the one to nominate for the current hiatus.
As they say, the fish rots from the head.
Prior to Brexit, people in the EU seemed to have freedom of movement in the EU area, but now Brexit is in force, there will be instances where this matter will arise. A recent matter to cite being that of the French fishermen who now find themselves having the lack of freedom to fish in Channel Islands waters that they used to have and now need certain new permit requirements, which caused them to make their protest last week.
That's nothing to do with freedom of movement.
 

alex397

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It is noticeable that mention of the phrase "humane way" now enters the discussion. Nothing of the kind, people just don't seem to appreciate the hard facts that Brexit involves. What do members of this website feel about those who work hand in hand with people smugglers in order that they can cross the Channel in inflateables from the EU country of France illegally with neither visas nor proof that they are not infected with any of the mutant strains of the Covid-19 virus that could infect people in the British coastal areas where they aim for. Are they acting in a "humane way"?
It isn’t exactly relevant to this discussion. Of course people smugglers act inhumanely, and they need to be stopped. They are taking advantage of desperate vulnerable people. I doubt many people would think any differently about people smugglers.
Whether you like it or not, asylum seekers are not illegal, even if they have travelled through other ‘safe’ countries to reach the UK. They are rightly assessed by our authorities, but they still have human rights.
Secondly, I believe asylum seekers are tested for Covid, and if positive have to isolate.

This has nothing to do with EU nationals, once our friends, visiting the UK for job interviews.
 

Annetts key

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The legal immigration arrangements though, whatever they are, have very little impact on illegal immigration. You can change the law to whatever you like, but if people can find a way to ignore it and that is seen as advantageous to them, they will ignore it. If these people are willing to risk their lives on the open sea in small boats, do you really think that a law will stop them?

Trying to close ourselves off from letting in our fellow human beings solves absolutely nothing in the medium and long term.

In fact, it may make things much worse.

Take this hypothetical example: a new virus strain that is resistant to all the current vaccinations and other medications is discovered. Prior to this, this country had a very reasonable and sensible immigration system. Hence illegal immigration was non-existent. Very quickly it was found that isolation for ten days would significantly reduce the possibility of people entering the country from spreading the virus. Hence we could set up and maintain control on people entering the country while a method of testing was developed.

Now let’s look at the alternative, where unreasonable immigration rules mean that there is plenty of illegal immigration. Now the people that come to this country by sea in small boats can enter with no checks, no ten day isolation, no testing to see if they have the virus. No control whatsoever... Hence the virus could soon spread out into the community.

Back to our present day world...

And the illegal immigration is not restricted to crossing to the U.K. by small boats crossing the English Channel. A couple of years ago Channel 4 television showed a documentary programme. The producers used ordinary U.K. citizens, who had valid U.K. passports, but asked them to surrender the passports to the producer. Then they tested various methods of entry to the U.K. In each case, the person entered the country without being discovered, let alone being detained. There was one exception, the guy who attempted to cross the English Channel in a canoe had to give up because of safety concerns. None of these ordinary people had any previous experience of illegal immigration.

Our so called borders are very porous.
 

najaB

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The title of this thread is "Brexit matters". Therefore anything that is affected by Brexit is fair game for discussion, not just a recent matter that has been discussed.
Yes, the fishing issue is (tangentially) Brexit-related. But it's nothing to do with Freedom of Movement.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Yes, the fishing issue is (tangentially) Brexit-related. But it's nothing to do with Freedom of Movement.
This thread is for ALL Brexit-related matters, as I have already said. Whilst Freedom of Movement is a topic amongst many that have been discussed, it is NOT a specific topic that this thread relates to over and above all other discussions.
 
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najaB

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This thread is for ALL Brexit-related matters, as I have already said. Whilst Freedom of Movement is a topic amongst many that have been discussed, it is NOT a specific topic that this thread relates to over and above all other discussions.
You're the one who related the fishing dispute to Freedom of Movement:

Prior to Brexit, people in the EU seemed to have freedom of movement in the EU area, but now Brexit is in force, there will be instances where this matter will arise. A recent matter to cite being that of the French fishermen who now find themselves having the lack of freedom to fish in Channel Islands waters that they used to have and now need certain new permit requirements, which caused them to make their protest last week.
Perhaps you didn't intend to make the link, but you did.
 

najaB

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No link was inferred. What was said concerned two totally separate matters that were Brexit-related as examples of how Brexit can affect numerous topics for purposes of discussion.
Fair enough. Perhaps in future separate the points into different paragraphs to make it clear that they're separate thoughts.
 

Annetts key

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Apply brexit to the different paragraphs and introduce separate border controls to keep the letters from having free movement between paragraphs...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Apply brexit to the different paragraphs and introduce separate border controls to keep the letters from having free movement between paragraphs...
Good to see a sense of humour is still to the fore.... :D

Of course, the recent website ruling that automatically conjoins two postings made by the same website member that are totally and utterly different from each other in context can lead to some matters of conjecture.
 

AlterEgo

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Reports that EU citizens arriving in the UK for job interviews (which is apparently legal) are being held in airport detention rooms for 48 hours, sent to immigration removal centres and having mobile phones confiscated. Seems a rather excessive treatment, but not particualrly surprising to me with the slippery slope this country seems to be on. However, it is what this country voted for, with immigration being a key concern for many Brexit supporters.

A bit different to how EU citizens were treated before Brexit, eh? Whether we like it or not, Europeans are our neighbours, and we should cooperate and treat each other with respect.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled
Out of interest, why should we treat Europeans who arrive without the correct visa or right to enter in a better manner than people arriving from Africa or Asia for example?

I saw a report tonight on telly this evening (I think it was ITV News) about Portugal gearing up for a large influx of British tourists. Perhaps a few Brits being detained for 48 hours at the airport before deportation back to the UK would focus some minds.
No problem with that if people arrive without the right to enter, which isn’t what would be happening.
 

ainsworth74

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Out of interest, why should we treat Europeans who arrive without the correct visa or right to enter in a better manner than people arriving from Africa or Asia for example?

If they're actually arriving without the correct paperwork then of course they should be refused entry pending either the regularisation of their position (if possible) or their removal back from whence they came. But it doesn't appear to be the case that the individual in this story was doing so. My understanding is that you are perfectly entitled to attend a job interview in the UK without needing a visa (or at least the sort of visa one has to apply for in advance of arrival). But I'm certainly open to correction on that point!

Personally I find they way that we treat all such individuals, whether they be African, Asian, European or from anywhere else, to be extremely unsettling if not downright dehumanising. I don't think we should be putting them in the local Doubletree by Hilton but equally I'm far from convinced that putting individuals like the one named in this story (again, no matter where they come from) in a facility like Yarl's Wood, which is basically a prison, is appropriate. But I appreciate that that is seemingly a minority view looking at the rhetoric coming out of the current Government and it's widespread support amongst the population at large.
 

alex397

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Personally I find they way that we treat all such individuals, whether they be African, Asian, European or from anywhere else, to be extremely unsettling if not downright dehumanising. I don't think we should be putting them in the local Doubletree by Hilton but equally I'm far from convinced that putting individuals like the one named in this story (again, no matter where they come from) in a facility like Yarl's Wood, which is basically a prison, is appropriate. But I appreciate that that is seemingly a minority view looking at the rhetoric coming out of the current Government and it's widespread support amongst the population at large.
I agree with this viewpoint too. Sure, we do need to have some sort of border in place, but we could at least treat people with a bit of dignity. The treatment of these EU nationals contrasts greatly to how they were treated previously, in my view.

Sadly I share your view that this is probably a minority viewpoint, seeing the rhetoric from Government, media, society and many people I know personally. To many I’m probably just a silly and naive ‘leftie millennial snowflake’.
 

AlterEgo

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If they're actually arriving without the correct paperwork then of course they should be refused entry pending either the regularisation of their position (if possible) or their removal back from whence they came. But it doesn't appear to be the case that the individual in this story was doing so. My understanding is that you are perfectly entitled to attend a job interview in the UK without needing a visa (or at least the sort of visa one has to apply for in advance of arrival). But I'm certainly open to correction on that point!

Personally I find they way that we treat all such individuals, whether they be African, Asian, European or from anywhere else, to be extremely unsettling if not downright dehumanising. I don't think we should be putting them in the local Doubletree by Hilton but equally I'm far from convinced that putting individuals like the one named in this story (again, no matter where they come from) in a facility like Yarl's Wood, which is basically a prison, is appropriate. But I appreciate that that is seemingly a minority view looking at the rhetoric coming out of the current Government and it's widespread support amongst the population at large.
Clearly the Border Force thought the premise of the visit was spurious and not legitimate. We are unlikely to learn the facts, but from what’s in the news, I’m not surprised this person was not admitted. Not that I’m a huge fan of BF, they’ve given me a hard time before and I live here!

If an Englishman got detained in Italy for being there for a spurious and irregular purpose contrary to the law of Italy, we’d no doubt just shrug and say “heh, well that’s what you get”.

If you end up getting deported from any country in the world you will be detained until they can do so. That is, I’m afraid, “effectively prison”. I’m not sure what the conditions are like at Colnbrook, and that might be the subject of a separate debate, but if you enter a country in a pandemic without good cause and end up being removed...then I dunno, it’s one of those things, isn’t it?

I agree with this viewpoint too. Sure, we do need to have some sort of border in place, but we could at least treat people with a bit of dignity. The treatment of these EU nationals contrasts greatly to how they were treated previously, in my view.
The facility to detain and deport EU nationals has always been there and has been used routinely before. It’s just that now, with no freedom of movement without justification or the proper visa, the rules have changed and this person was found, on balance, not to satisfy the entry criteria to come here.
 

najaB

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If you end up getting deported from any country in the world you will be detained until they can do so.
That is not necessary so. Two of my friends were denied entry to the UK and had to return to Mexico. Since the next available flight wasn't for three days they had to surrender their passports and were allowed to leave the airport on the condition that they didn't leave the Strathclyde area and reported to the police station every morning and evening.

Apparently it's not just people travelling for interviews getting caught up in this.

 
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