Brexit matters

[SS4]

One reason for Brexit was to stop governments supporting measures in Europe that they liked but knew they would not get past their backbenchers but for the fait accompli of it being European Law.

Yes a lot of it won't be reversed any time soon, but it is no longer an option for them to act this way in future.

On the flip side they can no longer blame Brussels for any unpopular laws they may want to implement. Like one Teresa May used to drag the human rights act through the mud with Abu Hamza

This was a government that effectively wanted to legislate a porn filter despite being told it was not technically possible.

 

[class ep-09]

One reason for Brexit was to stop governments supporting measures in Europe that they liked but knew they would not get past their backbenchers but for the fait accompli of it being European Law.

Yes a lot of it won't be reversed any time soon, but it is no longer an option for them to act this way in future.

Are you trying to say, that you choose your MP based on what hoover power that are happy to accept ?

 

[nlogax]

On the flip side they can no longer blame Brussels for any unpopular laws they may want to implement. Like one Teresa May used to drag the human rights act through the mud with Abu Hamza

Precisely. Leave voters will finally discover that the ineptitude, incompetence and terrible decisions from our politicians is solely down to our politicians. They can't be blamed on Brussels or Strasbourg. There's nowhere left to outsource our national political idiocy, we've pulled up all the drawbridges and kept all the maniacs with us.

 

[ainsworth74]

They can't be blamed on Brussels or Strasbourg. There's nowhere left to outsource our national political idiocy, we've pulled up all the drawbridges and kept all the maniacs with us.

I wish I had your sense of optimism that the Government and the relevant sections of the media won't happily still blame the EU for any woes we now encounter.

 

[alex397]

I wish I had your sense of optimism that the Government and the relevant sections of the media won't happily still blame the EU for any woes we now encounter.

I get the feeling any negative impacts of Brexit will be blamed on the EU ‘punishing us’.

 

[dgl]

Are you trying to say, that you choose your MP based on what hoover power that are happy to accept ?

And given the only UK manufacturer of vacuums marketed towards domestic customers for some while (Numatic International. based ~10mi away from my current location) has never produced a non-commercial machine of more than 1.2kW so they, despite supporting Brexit, seem to not to want to support UK manufacturing
If you did want a more powerful machine then they do smaller commercial machines with 2x960W motors.

 

[najaB]

I get the feeling any negative impacts of Brexit will be blamed on the EU ‘punishing us’.

Of course they will - they already started using that argument when the cruel and vindictive EU pointed out that there needed to be a customs border somewhere between the UK mainland and Ireland.

 

[eoff]

Precisely. Leave voters will finally discover that the ineptitude, incompetence and terrible decisions from our politicians is solely down to our politicians. They can't be blamed on Brussels or Strasbourg.

I do find it a bit rich of the politicians to complain about various aspects of the EU when it was those politicians of various parties and govenments that voted in its formation and changes in various treaties.

 

[dgl]

I do find it a bit rich of the politicians to complain about various aspects of the EU when it was those politicians of various parties and govenments that voted in its formation and changes in various treaties.

It's like going to a restaurant, ordering a dish containing something your allergic to and blaming the restaurant when you fall ill.

 

[Journeyman]

I do find it a bit rich of the politicians to complain about various aspects of the EU when it was those politicians of various parties and govenments that voted in its formation and changes in various treaties.

The Single Market had a massive amount of British input in its creation - it was pretty much entirely designed by UK civil servants who ensured it worked very much to our advantage. To claim we were trapped in it against our will and it was harming us is both dishonest and pathetic.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course they will - they already started using that argument when the cruel and vindictive EU pointed out that there needed to be a customs border somewhere between the UK mainland and Ireland.

I still can't quite get over the fact that we have disposed of the UK's single market and customs union (or whatever you'd call the national equivalents of those) in order for Great Britain to leave the EUs Single Market and Customs Union. We have, in a quite fundamental way, unravelled a part of the United Kingdom. No-one can persuade me that there was ever a majority for doing something like that. And yet we are still being told that this is a wonderful deal.

 

[21C101]

Are you trying to say, that you choose your MP based on what hoover power that are happy to accept ?

No I choose them with a view to their viewpoint as to state interference in general

 

[samxool]

On the flip side they can no longer blame Brussels for any unpopular laws they may want to implement. Like one Teresa May used to drag the human rights act through the mud with Abu Hamza

Um, your example isn't valid...

Abu Hamza deportation was held up in court over human rights issues.
That would be the ECHR, which we're still a member of, and not the EU

 

[21C101]

Where are all the upsides?

If you regard sovereignty or the country being free to run its own affairs, as as best an irrelevance or at worst an enabling act for the despised tories to resume oppression of those who had started to be liberated by the progressive EU, there are unlikely to be any upsides.

There were those in Ireland in 1922 (not just protestant) who were aghast at breaking away from the UK, as they saw little value in "sovereignty" and (rightly) saw that it would result in decades of severe economic hardship (far, far worse than anything Brexit is likely to result in even if the gloom mongers are correct).

And so it has been with every other fracture of an empire.

 

[dosxuk]

But IF the EU members did all decide to create an army, we'd be sitting next door with no say whatsoever.

Only because we quit the EU. Before we could have just vetoed the idea and it would have ended there.

What was it, during our entire time in the Union, something like 3% of decisions didn't go the way that we wanted? I think Theresa May's government had a worse record than that.

If you regard sovereignty or the country being free to run its own affairs, as as best an irrelevance or at worst an enabling act for the despised tories to resume oppression of those who had started to be liberated by the progressive EU, there are unlikely to be any upsides.

If we are to take retaining our sovereignty as a positive, you'll be able to point out a multitude of occasions our former lack of sovereignty disadvantaged the country, right?

 

[21C101]

If we are to take retaining our sovereignty as a positive, you'll be able to point out a multitude of occasions our former lack of sovereignty disadvantaged the country, right?

I could probably write a book of them.

However finding things that you or the remainers consider to be an advantage at all, let alone a worthwhile advantage, would be a lot more difficult.

That brings me to the point I made about the "centrist" remainers a few days back and why they proved incapable of making a positive case for EU membership during the referendum.

The remainers have little actual interest in the EU (other than seeing it in an idealised way as a progressive guiding light and enjoying its perks like easier international movement). The real purpose of the EU to them is as a vehicle to progress and cement centrist social democratic values upon a UK that would not adopt them if it was purely a domestic matter.

From that perspective, it makes sense that they are highly fearful about brexit, and indeed they have much to fear. As will be evidenced when things like the death penalty rise up the political agenda. (although I have mixed feelings on that one).

Brexit is not the end. But it is the end of the beginning.

It is certainly the biggest defeat for the progressive cause in the UK since the 1979 election and the constant wailing about it on the BBC reminds me of the constant wailing about "Cuts" on the BBC In the early 1980s.

 

[eoff]

The Single Market had a massive amount of British input in its creation - it was pretty much entirely designed by UK civil servants who ensured it worked very much to our advantage. To claim we were trapped in it against our will and it was harming us is both dishonest and pathetic.

Note that I was writing about the EU and not the EEC.

 

[Journeyman]

If you regard sovereignty or the country being free to run its own affairs, as as best an irrelevance or at worst an enabling act for the despised tories to resume oppression of those who had started to be liberated by the progressive EU, there are unlikely to be any upsides.

There were those in Ireland in 1922 (not just protestant) who were aghast at breaking away from the UK, as they saw little value in "sovereignty" and (rightly) saw that it would result in decades of severe economic hardship (far, far worse than anything Brexit is likely to result in even if the gloom mongers are correct).

And so it has been with every other fracture of an empire.

You're coming at this from completely the wrong angle, treating the EU as a foreign colonial power riding roughshod over our wishes. It's not that at all. It's a democratic multi-national organisation run on the principles that pooling sovereignty in some areas enables a huge amount of mutual benefit and increases opportunities for all.

We now have no influence over one of the most powerful organisations in the world, and will slowly decline in their shadow. Previously we were fully represented and elected MEPs to represent us.

Interesting that you should mention Ireland. Their drive towards prosperity massively accelerated after they joined the EU.

If the EU is such an evil, sovereignty sapping body, how come (a) no other country is seriously considering leaving, after witnessing the utter farce of our departure and (b) how come it isn't collapsing, like the gleeful Brexiteers told us it would?

Our EU membership brought massive benefits and huge amounts of trade and inward investment. Our departure has cost the economy more in four years than we've ever paid for our membership.

I could probably write a book of them.

However finding things that you or the remainers consider to be an advantage at all, let alone a worthwhile advantage, would be a lot more difficult.

That brings me to the point I made about the "centrist" remainers a few days back and why they proved incapable of making a positive case for EU membership during the referendum.

The remainers have little actual interest in the EU (other than seeing it in an idealised way as a progressive guiding light and enjoying its perks like easier international movement). The real purpose of the EU to them is as a vehicle to progress and cement centrist social democratic values upon a UK that would not adopt them if it was purely a domestic matter.

From that perspective, it makes sense that they are highly fearful about brexit, and indeed they have much to fear. As will be evidenced when things like the death penalty rise up the political agenda. (although I have mixed feelings on that one).

Brexit is not the end. But it is the end of the beginning.

It is certainly the biggest defeat for the progressive cause in the UK since the 1979 election and the constant wailing about it on the BBC reminds me of the constant wailing about "Cuts" on the BBC In the early 1980s.

I think you've revealed yourself as someone who holds views I consider to be utterly obnoxious, and your determination to drag us backwards to some sort of golden age that never existed is pretty revolting.

I'll never forgive those responsible for stealing so much from me and my kids.

 

[21C101]

You're coming at this from completely the wrong angle, treating the EU as a foreign colonial power riding roughshod over our wishes. It's not that at all. It's a democratic multi-national organisation run on the principles that pooling sovereignty in some areas enables a huge amount of mutual benefit and increases opportunities for all.

We now have no influence over one of the most powerful organisations in the world, and will slowly decline in their shadow. Previously we were fully represented and elected MEPs to represent us.

Interesting that you should mention Ireland. Their drive towards prosperity massively accelerated after they joined the EU.

If the EU is such an evil, sovereignty sapping body, how come (a) no other country is seriously considering leaving, after witnessing the utter farce of our departure and (b) how come it isn't collapsing, like the gleeful Brexiteers told us it would?

Our EU membership brought massive benefits and huge amounts of trade and inward investment. Our departure has cost the economy more in four years than we've ever paid for our membership.

That is your perspective, I've explained mine. I'm not going to claim your values are worthless, merely that I disagree and voted accordingly.

Having to live with being outvoted on something dear to you is a fact of life in a democracy, something I felt actuely as I watched our MPs being hoodwinked into the Iraq War.

 

[Journeyman]

That is your perspective, I've explained mine. I'm not going to claim your values are worthless, merely that I disagree and voted accordingly.

Having to live with being outvoted on something dear to you is a fact of life in a democracy, something I felt actuely as I watched our MPs being hoodwinked into the Iraq War.

We're obviously never going to agree. I just hope you'll have the grace to understand why I feel so cheated, conned, robbed and depressed about this. I've given you plenty of examples of the serious disadvantage we've placed ourselves in, and the huge problems and hardships it's going to create, and the best you can come up with is some ill-informed rubbish about vacuum cleaners. You've had five years to tell me how all our amazing new sovereignty is going to benefit me - is that really the best you can do?

 

[dosxuk]

I could probably write a book of them.

Yet you refrain from listing any of them?

So not only are the proponents of brexit afraid of listing any positives of it, they also don't want to be list the negatives or our previous membership.

Starting to sound a bit gaslighty if I'm honest...

However finding things that you or the remainers consider to be an advantage at all, let alone a worthwhile advantage, would be a lot more difficult.

You mean it's difficult to find things that stand up to any scrutiny, like your vacuum cleaner nonsense.

(FYI, no country that is planning on banning new petrol cars in 9 years time is going to be ripping up the restrictions on the power of household goods. If anything the weaker pound in the long term pushing up the cost of electricity bought from the continent is likely to mean even harsher restrictions on the power of appliances like hoovers)

 

[Journeyman]

Yet you refrain from listing any of them?

So not only are the proponents of brexit afraid of listing any positives of it, they also don't want to be list the negatives or our previous membership.

Starting to sound a bit gaslighty if I'm honest...


You mean it's difficult to find things that stand up to any scrutiny, like your vacuum cleaner nonsense.

(FYI, no country that is planning on banning new petrol cars in 9 years time is going to be ripping up the restrictions on the power of household goods. If anything the weaker pound in the long term pushing up the cost of electricity bought from the continent is likely to mean even harsher restrictions on the power of appliances like hoovers)

I voted remain because I valued the benefits of our EU membership, not because I particularly love the EU, and it was a purely pragmatic decision. If there are genuine, good, concrete, beneficial reasons why leaving was a good idea, I'm all ears, but no-one has come up with anything at all.

If in ten years time we're a prosperous, happy trading nation with a positive influence in the world, I'll happily admit I was wrong. In fact I hope I'm wrong. I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life.

However, if in ten years time we're a poverty stricken hellhole, with a hard border between Scotland and England, full of conflict, resentment and civil disorder, with all our best business and talent gone, will the Brexiteers own their mistakes? I doubt it.

 

[21C101]

I think you've revealed yourself as someone who holds views I consider to be utterly obnoxious

If you consider having mixed feelings about the death penalty to be utterly obnoxious then you have a bit of a problem as, in the unlikely event of a referendum being permitted on the matter, it would have a credible chance of passing with a bigger margin than the brexit.

I've already acknowleged that your reasons for being pro remain matter dearly to you.

Please in return stop implying that the illustrative example I gave earlier is the sole reason I voted to leave.

 

[Journeyman]

If you consider having mixed feelings about the death penalty to be utterly obnoxious then you have a bit of a problem as, in the unlikely event of a referendum being permitted on the matter, it would have a credible chance of passing with a bigger margin than the brexit.

I've already acknowleged that your reasons for being pro remain matter dearly to you.

Please in return stop implying that the illustrative example I gave earlier is the sole reason I voted to leave.

But you haven't told us what the better reasons are.

Also, leaving the EU isn't enough to allow us to reinstate the death penalty, we'd have to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights. And even considering the reintroduction of the death penalty in this country is something I will oppose with every fibre of my being.

 

[najaB]

I could probably write a book of them.

Please go ahead then, list a few, I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Journeyman]

Please go ahead then, list a few, I'm genuinely interested.

Me too. I've been asking about the Brexit dividend for four years, and all I get is defensive, ill-informed nonsense. If it's really so amazing, surely the benefits are easy to articulate?

As of tomorrow, what amazing new freedoms will I have that I don't have today?

 

[37424]

I voted remain because I valued the benefits of our EU membership, not because I particularly love the EU, and it was a purely pragmatic decision. If there are genuine, good, concrete, beneficial reasons why leaving was a good idea, I'm all ears, but no-one has come up with anything at all.

If in ten years time we're a prosperous, happy trading nation with a positive influence in the world, I'll happily admit I was wrong. In fact I hope I'm wrong. I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life.

However, if in ten years time we're a poverty stricken hellhole, with a hard border between Scotland and England, full of conflict, resentment and civil disorder, with all our best business and talent gone, will the Brexiteers own their mistakes? I doubt it

Although I voted Remain I did it mainly because of the economic implications and not for any great love of the EU which you yourself also admit. I do find myself agreeing with leavers in that I would have preferred it to have remained mainly a trading block, not a fan of further integration, not a fan of the EU parliament or the Brussels machine, and so in some ways it was difficult to make the Remain argument to stay and because of that and we ended up with project fear as the main reason, in fact the only valid arguments to me were the economic implications, and the idea of trying to reform it from inside, and of course some things that you cherish such as 'Freedom of Movement' were seen as a major negative by many people, and even David Cameron was not a fan of the EU in many respects, so I think we ended with people defending the EU even though they didn't actually like it very much.

Also Unless Brexit goes extremely badly which I don't think it will, I expect reality will be somewhere in between the doom mongers and the Brexit fanatics predictions, then those with idea's of re-joining the EU will given short shrift for many years.

 

[dosxuk]

Me too. I've been asking about the Brexit dividend for four years, and all I get is defensive, ill-informed nonsense. If it's really so amazing, surely the benefits are easy to articulate?

As of tomorrow, what amazing new freedoms will I have that I don't have today?

I wasn't even after positives here, just some examples of times when our lack of sovereignty meant that decisions disadvantageous to the country were taken against our will. A list of benefits could be very wishy-washy, and it's all in the future and who knows what could happen. Times when we've had to suffer because of our lack of sovereignty are on much more solid ground, they are factual and historical.

And yet still there are no examples. Strange since we're told that getting our sovereignty back was so important...

 

[Journeyman]

I wasn't even after positives here, just some examples of times when our lack of sovereignty meant that decisions disadvantageous to the country were taken against our will. A list of benefits could be very wishy-washy, and it's all in the future and who knows what could happen. Times when we've had to suffer because of our lack of sovereignty are on much more solid ground, they are factual and historical.

And yet still there are no examples. Strange since we're told that getting our sovereignty back was so important...

Yeah, I'd be fascinated to hear even one example. Preferably one that doesn't involve vacuum cleaners or fish.

 

[najaB]

There were those in Ireland in 1922 (not just protestant) who were aghast at breaking away from the UK, as they saw little value in "sovereignty" and (rightly) saw that it would result in decades of severe economic hardship (far, far worse than anything Brexit is likely to result in even if the gloom mongers are correct).

Am I the only one who finds the comparison of the UK/EU relationship as being somehow equivalent to that which existed between Britain and Ireland disingenuous at best, bordering on insulting? I freely admit that I'm not 100% involved in the news cycle but I don't recall ever having seen an occupying EU army in the major cities of the UK, I'm not aware of people being jailed for expressing anti-EU opinion, nor have I heard of people being executed for acts of sedition against the EU.

This is just a thought, but is it possible that this false equivalence and appeal to emotion is being used to hide the lack of a cogent argument as to how the value of sovereignty gained by leaving the EU outweighs everything that has been lost as a result?

If in ten years time we're a prosperous, happy trading nation with a positive influence in the world, I'll happily admit I was wrong. In fact I hope I'm wrong. I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life.

You and me both!