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Bridge to Ireland possible rail link and tunnel

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Gadget88

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transmanche

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Let's just say, the last time he wanted a bridge to be built it cost the taxpayer the best part of £50million and we still got no bridge.
 

Flying Snail

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This is what happens when you elect a ******* moron.

I suppose it would be a useful escape route for the unionists when Sinn Fein achieve their united Ireland aspirations.
 

Lucan

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Let's hope this is not a distraction from HS2.

Also seems dodgy given the success of Sinn Fein in the current Irish election. I can't imagine they want to see closer links between NI and GB, so they could cause political trouble. Maybe the Republic of Ireland should build a bridge straight to France instead :rolleyes:
 

HSTEd

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Would there need to be Talgo style gauge changing trains?
Either that or just lay a third rail between Whitehead (or wherever the Bridge lands) and Belfast to allow standard gauge trains to run through.

This bridge is well within the capabilities of existing engineering.
You might question whether it is worth it, but it is certainly buildable.

I can't see any real reason to mess around with a combined bridge tunnel solution.
Just build a bridge all the way through, it avoids so many engineering issues.
 

DelW

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Even if it's feasible at a sensible cost, which I doubt, and provides a positive BCR, which I doubt even more; the way politics are going in Scotland and Ireland, both ends might well be in non-UK countries before it's finished.

It's another barmy Johnsonism which will end up wasting a lot of money for little or no return, as per garden bridge, new Routemasters, etc.
 

miami

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By the time the planning starts Scotland and Northern Ireland will have separated from the UK, and it will probably be funded by the EU

Let's hope this is not a distraction from HS2.

That was my thought, however he does seem to want to build infrastructure - or at least announce infrastructure. 24 hours will tell

Maybe call it the Boris Bridge and could get built -- he doesn't have a good reputation for bridges.
 

Baxenden Bank

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I thought there was some kind of issue with munitions dumps being in the way?
Indeed. Chemical weapons.

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort's_Dyke

Dumped munitions

Because of its depth and its proximity to the Cairnryan military port, Beaufort's Dyke became the United Kingdom's largest offshore dump site for conventional and chemical munitions after the Second World War: it had been used for the purpose since the early 20th century. The Ministry of Defence estimated that well over a million tons had been disposed there. In July 1945, 14,500 tons of 5-inch (130-millimetre) artillery rockets filled with phosgene were dumped.

Munitions have subsequently been washed up on local beaches. For example, in 1995, incendiary devices washed up on the Scottish and Northern Irish coasts, coinciding with the laying of the Scotland-Northern Ireland pipeline (SNIP), a 24-inch (610-millimetre) gas interconnector constructed by British Gas.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed

Nuclear waste
According to documents from the Public Record Office, approximately two tonnes of concrete-encased metal drums filled with radioactive laboratory rubbish and luminous paint were dumped in the Dyke during the 1950s.

Crossings
Projects for a tunnel or Irish Sea fixed crossing between Northern Ireland and Scotland have been suggested at various times from the late 19th century onwards. The dyke has always been an important problem for such proposals, in terms of both practicality and cost.
 
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Baxenden Bank

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By the time the planning starts Scotland and Northern Ireland will have separated from the UK, and it will probably be funded by the EU



That was my thought, however he does seem to want to build infrastructure - or at least announce infrastructure. 24 hours will tell

Maybe call it the Boris Bridge and could get built -- he doesn't have a good reputation for bridges.
All mouth and no trousers.

Expect lots of grand ideas and announcements. If we had a decent media they would keep reminding him about his previously announced projects and ask where they had got to.

Boris and co are refusing to engage with the serious media - see last weeks news about all the journalists walking out because colleagues were refused entry to the briefing. All lined up on one side of the corridor and the 'acceptable' ones being walked to the other side. Naughty side and good side!
 

BigCj34

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Considering the engineering challenges involved on the NI - Scotland route, would an Anglesey - Dublin link make more sense even with the longer distance? It would benefit more conurbations for one, linking Dublin to the North West, West Midlands and London with little new infrastructure required outside of the bridge. A link from Belfast to the Scottish central belt would serve comparatively fewer people; it would require the Port Road line to be reopened and built to a higher speed if Belfast to England routes are going to take on flying.
 

miami

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Considering the engineering challenges involved on the NI - Scotland route, would an Anglesey - Dublin link make more sense even with the longer distance?

Not politically

This bridge is not designed to be built, it's to shore up support for the conservative and unionist politicians in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and presumably send some money to some design consultants that Boris knows.
 

BigCj34

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Not politically

This bridge is not designed to be built, it's to shore up support for the conservative and unionist politicians in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and presumably send some money to some design consultants that Boris knows.

True, if it was to work (at least for a railway) it would definitely require some infrastructure spending on the Irish side! The Enterprise train is rather slow and of course would need a gauge train.
 

miami

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As it's a speculative idea, what would it need

Dedicated platforms at Great Victoria Street
Tunnel out of Belfast, may as well stay in tunnel as far as Newtownards (which lacks a railway station, unlike Bangor)
Follow the A48 (roughly) up to the coast, go south of Donaghadee, then onto a bridge over to land south of Portpatrick. Back in a tunnel to join at Challoch Junction

But then what? The Stranraer line isn't great. New Stranraer-Dumfries to connect to HS2? That's a lot of tunnelling.
 

HSTEd

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As it's a speculative idea, what would it need

Dedicated platforms at Great Victoria Street
Tunnel out of Belfast, may as well stay in tunnel as far as Newtownards (which lacks a railway station, unlike Bangor)
Follow the A48 (roughly) up to the coast, go south of Donaghadee, then onto a bridge over to land south of Portpatrick. Back in a tunnel to join at Challoch Junction

But then what? The Stranraer line isn't great. New Stranraer-Dumfries to connect to HS2? That's a lot of tunnelling.

I would argue that the line via Carrickfergus probably makes a better jumping off point.
Somewhere north east of Whitehead.
 

Chester1

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Considering the engineering challenges involved on the NI - Scotland route, would an Anglesey - Dublin link make more sense even with the longer distance? It would benefit more conurbations for one, linking Dublin to the North West, West Midlands and London with little new infrastructure required outside of the bridge. A link from Belfast to the Scottish central belt would serve comparatively fewer people; it would require the Port Road line to be reopened and built to a higher speed if Belfast to England routes are going to take on flying.

Ireland won't pay for any route and it would primarily be a political and societal project which means that any fixed link needs to link two parts of the UK.

Scottish independence or a united Ireland wouldn't be a problem if the correct legal agreements were made. If it were built and operated by a government owned company funded by government guaranteed loans then an agreement could be made. Something like in the event of Irish unity, the government of the republic would be legally bound to take a 50% equity stake, including acting as guarantor for half the value of the loans. An agreement could be made with the Scottish government along the same lines. The interest rate the company would pay would be effected by the prospect of losing the UK treasury as guarantor but it would negate the political risk for England and Wales. Varadkar said that the UK would have to pay for it but financial role only in the event of a united Ireland is different to expecting them to help finance it now.
 

tbtc

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This bridge is not designed to be built, it's to shore up support for the conservative and unionist politicians in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and presumably send some money to some design consultants that Boris knows.

Agreed - I'm disappointed that so much of our media has been distracted by this "dead cat" - there are lots of major stories that could be covered, yet Cummings/Johnson have dangled this silly story and everyone seems to have fallen for it.

It's not even as if this has been a major thing that either Stormont or Holyrood have been demanding - it's a complete nonsense (from a politician who has made a career out of distracting people with "impossible" projects to take attention away from the reality of what he's failed to deliver).

But I guess it's more "fun" to cover an unfeasible idea like this than lay a glove on the PM's failure to do other things.

Classic Dom.
 

TrainBoy98

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Surely just extend HS2 to Scotland, then across to Belfast? London-Glasgow-Belfast, gotta be a vote winner? To keep everyone happy, we could even put the 442s on it?

... I'll get my coat :lol:
 

Baxenden Bank

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Wikipedia gives the world's longest bridge as: Danyang - Kunshan Grand Bridge at 16.48km

The longest rail tunnels are, depending upon your view of the type of tunnel:
  1. Guangzhou Metro Line 3 - 60.4km
  2. Gotthard Base Tunnel - 57.1km Longest railway tunnel; by geodetic distance (of 55.782 km (34.661 mi)) between the two portals, it is also the world's longest transit tunnel.
  3. Beeijing Subway Line 10 - 57.1km
  4. Seikan Tunnel - 53.85km longest railway tunnel until 2016. Longest tunnel with an undersea section. Undersea section measures 23.3 kilometres (14.5 mi).
The Great Belt Fixed Link is a total of 18km.

At a possible 45km, the Irish Sea Bridge would be a substantial undertaking.
 

najaB

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Technically, it is possible. Economically it is dubious. Politically it's a non-starter.

(I may have those last two reversed.)
 

Gadget88

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How long would it take a train to cross the bridge out of interest and would the train have one line going to Dublin and one to Belfast is there infrastructure already there for that?
 

Clayton

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Hilarious, a bridge from the middle of nowhere to an island that will soon be a foreign country. It’s just a distraction stunt, the opposite of ‘virtue signalling’ I guess.
 

Snow1964

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The munition dumping didn't stop the gas pipeline.

That sits on the bottom and fairly easy to cushion it from dangerous junk already there without disturbing it.

Sinking bridge foundations are another matter. Part of of the reason for dumping it there was the depth, so need to be very tall piers just to reach water line, can have fewer with bigger spans, but that causes different problems. It can get rather windy in that sea.

Non-starter done for political stunt
 

HSTEd

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That sits on the bottom and fairly easy to cushion it from dangerous junk already there without disturbing it.

Sinking bridge foundations are another matter. Part of of the reason for dumping it there was the depth, so need to be very tall piers just to reach water line, can have fewer with bigger spans, but that causes different problems. It can get rather windy in that sea.

Non-starter done for political stunt

The water isn't really deep by the standards of bridges under design and engineering consideration today.
The weather isn't particularly bad compared to what large condeep type oil platforms endure every day in the Northern North Sea and arctic oceans.

In Norway they want to put bridge piers in 1500m of water.
245m of water is absolutely nothing.

Building this bridge is also likely to be far cheaper than building, and paying for the operation of, the electrolysis capability to provide NI-GB zero carbon flights in future.

Also the munitions is sort of a red herring, since the size of the bridge foundations will be a tiny portion of the bridge track.
So anything that might be dangerous can be cleared by UUVs or divers before we drop the GBS type structures in.

Or we can use TLP type structures for bridge piers, as proposed in Norway, to further reduce the footprint of the bridge in the area.

EDIT:
Take the Tsing Ma bridge.
~1377m combined road-rail span.
Bridge towers are apparently ~208m above sea level.
Taking a track across the crossing from vicinity Whitehead to vicnity Portslogan, the maximum depth is only 245m apparently.

That gives us a maximum pier height, even if the piers are not optimised to reduce this value, of 453m.

The Troll A condeep platform structure is 472m tall.

So the depths are easily achievable.
 
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deltic

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Considering the engineering challenges involved on the NI - Scotland route, would an Anglesey - Dublin link make more sense even with the longer distance? It would benefit more conurbations for one, linking Dublin to the North West, West Midlands and London with little new infrastructure required outside of the bridge. A link from Belfast to the Scottish central belt would serve comparatively fewer people; it would require the Port Road line to be reopened and built to a higher speed if Belfast to England routes are going to take on flying.

I worked on a business case for a speculative Anglesey-Dublin tunnel over 20 years ago - stacked up quite nicely then but costs have probably increased 10 fold since!
 

najaB

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The water isn't really deep by the standards of bridges under design and engineering consideration today.
Again, nobody is saying that it can't be done, what is being questioned is if it makes any economic sense. It does not.
Building this bridge is also likely to be far cheaper than building, and paying for the operation of, the electrolysis capability to provide NI-GB zero carbon flights in future.
Now that rather depends on how you go about it, does it not? A couple of nice big nuclear plants co-generating electricity would do quite nicely.
 
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