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Brighton Great Western Services? - New 2013 Franchise

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Greenback

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I see what your saying about it running on non-electrified routes but the whole point is that it avoids the need to change trains, and lug about baggage.

In other threads I have pointed out the advantages of through trains for passengers. However, when it comes to running diesels over electrified tracks, I believe that the best use of resources overall must remain an important consideration.

Services in the Westbury–Southampton–Portsmouth corridor are very well-used; don't underestimate Portsmouth as a passenger magnet!

Also bearing in mind these FGW services are the only fast services between the two neighbouring cities of Southampton and Portsmouth.

I have seen the Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff services are very well used so it would be a big mistake to reduce the frequency by diverting some trains to Brighton.

Trains do see to be very well used between Portsmouth & Southampton.

I have to agree with these two posts. I can't see many advantages at all in cutting Portsmouth services in order to run a couple more trains to Brighton.

Portsmouth is a useful gateway to the eastern half of the Isle of Wight, is a naval base, and is an important centre for shopping and leisure, not to mention touriism.

That's not to say that Brighton isn't, but given the resources available, it makes a lot more sense to run trains to Portsmouth Harbour. It isn't as if they are not used.
 
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anthony263

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Well said Greenback as we know the Portsmouth trains are well used just by remebering the terrible overcrowding shortly after FGW got the GW franchise when they were only using 2 carriage class 158's and the recent calls for 4 carriage trains on the route.

I do remember when I last went to Portmouth Hbr after using the hovercraft from the isle of wight. the train was formed of a class 150 & a class 158 yet it was still pretty well full.
 

ushawk

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I wouldnt divert all FGW services from Portsmouth to Brighton - Portsmouth is an important destination, even more so than Brighton because it is the main place to connect to the Isle of Wight, as well as the other ferry services which run from there.

I wouldnt re-time the Brighton services, as they are generally fine - but bare in mind that the Southern Southampton services have to be diverted via Eastleigh to allow it to run. Perhaps all this needs is better timetabling by Southern, to connect with FGW services at maybe Fareham, so it is a same platform departure. Unless the line though Salisbury and beyond is electrified, additional services cannot run.
 

Ivo

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Would it be possible to run a pair of 2-car 158s together, with the two dividing at SOU? With one heading to PMH and the other alternating between staying at SOU (to reduce the numbers required slightly) and continuing to BTN?

Plan I had if the Portishead branch was re-opened was to divert the Great Malvern services through to Portishead instead of southampton/Weymouth.

This would deprive Bath and beyond of a through service to Bristol Parkway and beyond ;) Unless of course you mean only the GMV trains, in which case it's 1tp2h - which isn't enough.
 

Eagle

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Would it be possible to run a pair of 2-car 158s together, with the two dividing at SOU? With one heading to PMH and the other alternating between staying at SOU (to reduce the numbers required slightly) and continuing to BTN?

I'd rather that it were done with a divide at Cosham (saves a path), but four-car operation on the Wessex route is needed and this is a good way to do it (whether it's 158s or 166s or whatever).
 

SussexSpotter

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I have to agree with these two posts. I can't see many advantages at all in cutting Portsmouth services in order to run a couple more trains to Brighton.

Portsmouth is a useful gateway to the eastern half of the Isle of Wight, is a naval base, and is an important centre for shopping and leisure, not to mention touriism.

That's not to say that Brighton isn't, but given the resources available, it makes a lot more sense to run trains to Portsmouth Harbour. It isn't as if they are not used.

I therefore go back to my original suggestion of extending some services to Brighton with reversal at Portsmouth and bypass Portsmouth & Southsea and Fratton on westbound trips, only making eastbound calls (see my first post with the stopping pattern) allows both markets to be served with no reduction in service. Fast service between Brighton and Portsmouth competing with the slow Class 313 Southern service, as well as an additional service from Brighton to Southampton, Bath, Bristol and Cardiff.
 

anthony263

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Would it be possible to run a pair of 2-car 158s together, with the two dividing at SOU? With one heading to PMH and the other alternating between staying at SOU (to reduce the numbers required slightly) and continuing to BTN?

I suppose it would be possible especially when you consider some members have suggested extending the Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff trains to west wales via the Swansea district line.

Of course you would have problem if you did both as there is the potential for something to go horribly wrong especially if the portions from west wales or Brighton are late etc.
 

SussexSpotter

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I suppose it would be possible especially when you consider some members have suggested extending the Portsmouth Hbr - Cardiff trains to west wales via the Swansea district line.

Of course you would have problem if you did both as there is the potential for something to go horribly wrong especially if the portions from west wales or Brighton are late etc.

They seem to cope at Haywards Heath ok with the Littlehampton and Ore joiners/dividers, considering how chaotic the Brighton line is lol :lol:

But it's quite a good idea to combine the 2 portions, another interesting alternative.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unless the line though Salisbury and beyond is electrified, additional services cannot run.

Electrification is something that will happen with time, maybe 20 years or more. Someone will eventually say ''yep, now's the time to do it''.....same with the GWML. DMU's won't be around forever and the 158's/150's will begin to become less reliable as time goes by. Will have to wait and see what happens, but a fast electric service from Brighton, possibly even London Victoria - Bristol is certainly worth considering. :D

Thinking about it could a new Brighton - Bristol electric service opperate via East Croydon once the GWML is electrified, using 377/2's perhaps???????
 
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anthony263

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They seem to cope at Haywards Heath ok with the Littlehampton and Ore joiners/dividers, considering how chaotic the Brighton line is lol :lol:

But it's quite a good idea to combine the 2 portions, another interesting alternative.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Electrification is something that will happen with time, maybe 20 years or more. Someone will eventually say ''yep, now's the time to do it''.....same with the GWML. DMU's won't be around forever and the 158's/150's will begin to become less reliable as time goes by. Will have to wait and see what happens, but a fast electric service from Brighton, possibly even London Victoria - Bristol is certainly worth considering. :D

Thinking about it could a new Brighton - Bristol electric service opperate via East Croydon once the GWML is electrified, using 377/2's perhaps???????



Dont think FGW or SWT will be too pleased especially if you consider how cheap some of Southerns fares are which would be very attractive to passengers
 

Greenback

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I therefore go back to my original suggestion of extending some services to Brighton with reversal at Portsmouth and bypass Portsmouth & Southsea and Fratton on westbound trips, only making eastbound calls (see my first post with the stopping pattern) allows both markets to be served with no reduction in service. Fast service between Brighton and Portsmouth competing with the slow Class 313 Southern service, as well as an additional service from Brighton to Southampton, Bath, Bristol and Cardiff.

I would support that suggestion if there was sufficient stock to do it without any reduction in current train lengths.

I don;t know whether it would be possible or not, but I would guess that there isn't a lot of slack in the FGW fleet.

Cue suggestions for introducing LHCS to free up some extra DMU's!
 

Eagle

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I therefore go back to my original suggestion of extending some services to Brighton with reversal at Portsmouth and bypass Portsmouth & Southsea and Fratton on westbound trips, only making eastbound calls (see my first post with the stopping pattern) allows both markets to be served with no reduction in service. Fast service between Brighton and Portsmouth competing with the slow Class 313 Southern service, as well as an additional service from Brighton to Southampton, Bath, Bristol and Cardiff.

Huge time penalty there, reversing at Portsmouth Harbour. You're looking at at least half an hour added on to Soton to Brighton journey times. I still think Ivo's idea of splitting trains makes the most sense.
 

Ivo

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Cue suggestions for introducing LHCS to free up some extra DMU's!

They already tried that (Taunton - Cardiff)! :lol: Would be nice though.

I still think Ivo's idea of splitting trains makes the most sense.

Why thank you :p

Part of the reason I suggested SOU and not Cosham (or even Fareham) is that one of the two, probably the PMH service could make a couple of additional stops if pathing should allow. If this is not the case though, then fine :)
 

anthony263

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Yes bring back loco hauled trains on the Cardiff - Taunton route, I am sure DRS could give FGW a good price.

Besides when WAG1 starts using mk3's there are two Mk2 rakes which FGW could nick off ATW although they may need some cleaning and minor work.
 

SussexSpotter

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Yes bring back loco hauled trains on the Cardiff - Taunton route, I am sure DRS could give FGW a good price.

Besides when WAG1 starts using mk3's there are two Mk2 rakes which FGW could nick off ATW although they may need some cleaning and minor work.

hmmmm.......maybe loco hauled services is the answer to the FGW stock shortage? Just like the Wessex 31's and MK2's to Brighton and Weymouth from 2003 - 2006.

Just out of interest has anyone seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytSxLmpOd4U
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Huge time penalty there, reversing at Portsmouth Harbour. You're looking at at least half an hour added on to Soton to Brighton journey times. I still think Ivo's idea of splitting trains makes the most sense.

Better than waiting on a freezing cold platform for a train lol, i'd rather spend longer onboard a train than wait around in the cold for one, that might even be late.....I think most people would to be honest :lol: Given the ammount of stops that would be missed compared to the slow electric service that currently opperates it probably wouldn't add that much additional time really.

I should probably also point out that all the East Coastway services have to go via Hampden Park and reverse at Eastbourne due to there being no Eastbourne avoiding line between Pevensey & Westham and Polegate, I think there used to be one but it got removed under the beeching cuts. Passengers don't seem to mind taking the detour via Eastbourne, infact it even allows you to grab a quick coffee.

The morning 1N96 0701 Portsmouth Harbour - Brighton service takes about 14 minutes to get from Portsmouth Harbour - Farlington Junction, to get to Cosham Junction it takes about 13 minutes from the Portsmouth direction, with a 4 minute turnaround time at Portsmouth Harbour and skipping only the westbound stops at Fratton and Portsmouth & Southsea running fast, that would add a total extra journey time of about 27-28 minutes additionally by going via Portsmouth Harbour.

Portsmouth Harbour xx01
Farlington Jn pass xx15

Portsmouth Harbour xx05
Cosham Jn pass xx18½

But since the splitting and joining of trains has been suggested, that to me seems the most efficient option really.
 
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anthony263

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Saldy I nevr really got a chance to get a trip on the Wessex trains class 31 loco hauled services.

I did make up for it however by regular trips to Rhymney and some trips on the FGW loco hauled services to Taunton & Weymouth a few years ago including when FGW used the two 37's on what was supposed to be the final year of sumer saturday loco haulage to Weymouth which as we all know didnt prove to be the case at the time.
 

SussexSpotter

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Saldy I nevr really got a chance to get a trip on the Wessex trains class 31 loco hauled services.

I did make up for it however by regular trips to Rhymney and some trips on the FGW loco hauled services to Taunton & Weymouth a few years ago including when FGW used the two 37's on what was supposed to be the final year of sumer saturday loco haulage to Weymouth which as we all know didnt prove to be the case at the time.

Do the Summer skip hauled services to Weymouth still run or have FGW stopped them now?

Pretty sure there's some DB Schenker 67's available that FGW could hire to make up the stock shortage, they could certainly be used reguarly on the Weymouth services.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux5pO2mxOA0
 

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tbtc

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Would it be possible to run a pair of 2-car 158s together, with the two dividing at SOU? With one heading to PMH and the other alternating between staying at SOU (to reduce the numbers required slightly) and continuing to BTN?

Can anyone sort the maths for how many 158s it'd take to do this (compared to the current three coach operation to Portsmouth) and how the timings would work so that the westbound service from Brighton met the next Portsmouth service at Southampton?
 

SussexSpotter

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Can anyone sort the maths for how many 158s it'd take to do this (compared to the current three coach operation to Portsmouth) and how the timings would work so that the westbound service from Brighton met the next Portsmouth service at Southampton?

Well all current Brighton services also opperate as 3 coach so opperating both the Portsmouth and Brighton trains as 2 coach could mean an additional 2 car 158 that's available elsewhere. The way it could work is keep the 158 stabled at Portsmouth longer than it currently is and making the calls at Fareham and Cosham, meanwhile the Brighton portion runs fast from Southampton to Havant. Shortening the time the Class 158 is held at Brighton and perhaps an improvement in paths to speed the Brighton services up could allow for them to combine at Soton.
 

anthony263

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Well all current Brighton services also opperate as 3 coach so opperating both the Portsmouth and Brighton trains as 2 coach could mean an additional 2 car 158 that's available elsewhere. The way it could work is keep the 158 stabled at Portsmouth longer than it currently is and making the calls at Fareham and Cosham, meanwhile the Brighton portion runs fast from Southampton to Havant. Shortening the time the Class 158 is held at Brighton and perhaps an improvement in paths to speed the Brighton services up could allow for them to combine at Soton.


Ideally we could possibly do this if FGW get enough class 158's from scotrail to enable most of the 3 carriage class 158's to be reformed back to 2 carriage units and then work in pairs.

Of course you could swap that 3 carriage class 158 with northern for a 2 carriage rake.

Of course FGW would up against ATW and Northern who will be eager to get their hands on additional class 158's or class 170's

Speaking of the class 170's it makes me wonder about what if FGW had gotten those 4 carriage class 172's that were rumoured before the government annouced electrification.
 

SussexSpotter

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Speaking of the class 170's it makes me wonder about what if FGW had gotten those 4 carriage class 172's that were rumoured before the government annouced electrification.

There was also rumour about FGW 165's and 166's opperating the Portsmouth services by culling some of the least used local FGW services elsewhere but that never materialised.....and i'm not really suprised either really. Some lines might have only seen 1 service every 4 hours if that happend.
 

TEW

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Stopped a while ago. All Weymouth gets in summer now is one extra service a day to/from Cardiff (likely a 158), and even then that's only for the Olympics.

The extra service that the loco hauled stock used to run still runs. 0909 Bristol-Weymouth and 1655 Weymouth-Bristol. It now uses a 5 coach 150/153 combo rather than 4 MK2s so has had an increase in capacity.
 

SussexSpotter

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The extra service that the loco hauled stock used to run still runs. 0909 Bristol-Weymouth and 1655 Weymouth-Bristol. It now uses a 5 coach 150/153 combo rather than 4 MK2s so has had an increase in capacity.

I didn't realise 153's went to Weymouth??? :|
 

TEW

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153s go to Weymouth all the time, mainly 150s in the Winter, except for one 158 in the evening, plenty of 153s in the Summer though. It's Portsmouth that 153s can't go to.
 

SussexSpotter

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153s go to Weymouth all the time, mainly 150s in the Winter, except for one 158 in the evening, plenty of 153s in the Summer though. It's Portsmouth that 153s can't go to.

It's news to me lol. I just thought it was 150's and 158's and the odd Summer loco hauled service. Could they opperate a 153 to Brighton by any chance?
 

TEW

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No, 153s are not permitted beyond St Denys or Eastleigh, there is a problem with the clearance of the steps on the small cab end at a station on the Southampton-Portsmouth, I'm not sure which station it is at though.
 

Drsatan

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No, 153s are not permitted beyond St Denys or Eastleigh, there is a problem with the clearance of the steps on the small cab end at a station on the Southampton-Portsmouth, I'm not sure which station it is at though.

I think 153s are not allowed to use Portsmouth Harbour station since the steps would foul the platform edges. This wasn't an issue when 155s were used on Cardiff - Portsmouth services since they didn't have a small cab end.

When units were introduced on the Cardiff - Portsmouth services, a pair of 155s would run to Fareham, where the front portion would detach for Portsmouth Harbour and the rear portion would carry on to Brighton. Of course, problems with that include the fact that when if one portion is running late, the other would have to wait at Fareham, and today two coaches wouldn't be enough for passengers traveling to either Brighton or Portsmouth.
 

BestWestern

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Well said Greenback as we know the Portsmouth trains are well used just by remebering the terrible overcrowding shortly after FGW got the GW franchise when they were only using 2 carriage class 158's and the recent calls for 4 carriage trains on the route.

I do remember when I last went to Portmouth Hbr after using the hovercraft from the isle of wight. the train was formed of a class 150 & a class 158 yet it was still pretty well full.

It has to be said that the Portsmouth end of the route is reaosnably busy, but not massively so. Most services on your average weekday don't take on what you could call a busy loading until Fratton, which for whatever reason seems to be the 'hub' of the service in the Portsmouth area. Whilst it is doubtless a useful direct link for those people travelling to Gunwharf Quays, the ferryports and so on, there aren't huge numbers of them, except when the IoW has it's festivals, but of course this can't really be included as regular loadings. The service gets busier from Southampton onwards most days, but travel on a mid-morning or lunchtime departure from Portsmouth and two cars would easily be enough. Afternoon trains are busier, but not usually packed from Portsmouth, again it tends to be So'ton where the crowds come out.

I personally still feel that changing trains and using a stopper the short distance from Fareham to Portsmouth is a more sensible set-up than the current reverse situation of having the direct train to Pompey and having to change and suffer a stopper all the way to Brighton.
 

PHILIPE

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No, 153s are not permitted beyond St Denys or Eastleigh, there is a problem with the clearance of the steps on the small cab end at a station on the Southampton-Portsmouth, I'm not sure which station it is at though.
Southampton actually due to lack of clearance in the tunnel. By the way, Weymoith LHCS stock finished 2 years ago and the 06 47 Worcester to Weymouth is also a 158 booked.
 
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