Brighton Great Western Services? - New 2013 Franchise

[BestWestern]

Southampton actually due to lack of clearance in the tunnel.

That's an interesting variation, not heard that before! Whereabouts in the tunnel is the issue, does it still concern crew steps?

 

[PHILIPE]

That's an interesting variation, not heard that before! Whereabouts in the tunnel is the issue, does it still concern crew steps?

I believe that is the case as they were permitted when 155s. They can only enter Southampton from the Redbridge direction.

 

[TEW]

They can run in service through Southampton tunnel, they used to run via Eastleigh and Chandlers Ford under Wessex Trains for route retention purposes. Network Rails Baseline Capability, an online version of the sectional appendix, admittedly not up to date, states 153s are permitted Eastleigh to Redbridge.
Found a picture as well: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmupton2000/6021541280/

 

[OxtedL]

Removing established Portsmouth services would not be a good move, the alternatives towards Southampton are a bit bleak.

If the FGW Brighton services are busy, it could be because they are shorter than most other trains on the route, and happen to run at useful times? Anecdotally, Coastway services at reasonable times of the day have usually struck me as not Quiet, particularly at the weekend.

Connectivity across the Coastway is quite bad - it takes much longer than is comfortable to get from Brighton to Portsmouth or Southampton - but Southern have said (I think in an RUS response somewhere) that a lot of the demand they experience is for local journeys anyway, so there's a balancing act here.

 

[TEW]

The FGW Brighton services mainly seem to be loaded with long distance passengers rather than just local Coastway passengers. I can't really see a demand for running them hourly but I don't think the current services should be withdrawn in the new franchise either.

 

[paul1609]

Removing established Portsmouth services would not be a good move, the alternatives towards Southampton are a bit bleak.

If the FGW Brighton services are busy, it could be because they are shorter than most other trains on the route, and happen to run at useful times? Anecdotally, Coastway services at reasonable times of the day have usually struck me as not Quiet, particularly at the weekend.

Connectivity across the Coastway is quite bad - it takes much longer than is comfortable to get from Brighton to Portsmouth or Southampton - but Southern have said (I think in an RUS response somewhere) that a lot of the demand they experience is for local journeys anyway, so there's a balancing act here.

I travel along the coast way a lot with a weekday commute from Littlehampton to Portsmouth and a weekend commute when theres not engineering works from Rye to either Portsmouth or Littlehampton.
people travelling to Southampton/ portsmouth in the morning commute generally start from Chichester. Id say the maximum journey most people are doing is around 30 miles.

With regard to incoming FGW services Id say that at Fareham around 30 to 50 % of the passengers on Portsmouth bound trains alight to change for the coast way.
Interestingly most people seem to be travelling to West Sussex towns such as Chichester and Worthing and to Barnham (for Butlins at Bognor) rather than through to brighton.
Id guess that most through Brighton traffic goes via Reading or Clapham Junction these days probably as a result of cheap advance tickets

 

[acg5324]

I'm not very familiar with the south coast except Southampton-Bournemouth. Since electrification to Weymouth, I have always thought it strange that the isn't a South coast fast or express from Brighton direct to Weymouth. Let's say Brighton, Worthing, Barnham, Chischester, Havant, Cosham, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, (occaisional stop at Christchurch), Bournemouth, Poole, Wareham, Dorchester South, Weymouth. I am also surprised that the Cardiff/Bristol travel over electic rails from Southampton to Portsmouth. I am sure that a re-arrangement of Brighton-Southampton is much desired. Electricifation of Brockenhurst/Southampton to Saiisbury must be worth while? Ok I know nothing!

When the route between Portsmouth and Southampton was first electrified the service used to run through to Bournemouth from Victoria this was cut back to Southampton to allow a longer turnaround as the Bournemouth trains were often terminated at Basingstoke due to late running. There was if I remember correctly a SO Eastbourne to Bournemouth service which picked up the usual VIC to BMH pathway from Hove.

The current service is not ideal but two trains an hour along the coast to Southampton and two to Portsmouth does give a good range of conenctions. Shame the FGW dont go back to 3 trains a day which gave two BTN-BTM-CDF workings and a short working am from PMH and back in the evening.

The CDF services of course used to run through to Swansea and Milford Haven back in days when.......

 

[SussexSpotter]

There was if I remember correctly a SO Eastbourne to Bournemouth service which picked up the usual VIC to BMH pathway from Hove.

I do find it odd how the infrastructure exists to run services between the East and West Coastway with reversal at Brighton Platform 3 yet none currently opperate. Connex seemed to have the right idea by opperating the SO Eastbourne - Bournemouth services as well as the West Worthing - Seaford services, avoiding the need to change trains and travel from 1 end of Brighton station to the other, and wait around. From what I gather the only reason the workings stopped and were cut back to Brighton was that they blocked all the running lines......so performance was at risk on the Brighton Mainline services. Sounds like too much focus on making maximum profit from the Brighton services, and lack of consideration for the Coastway services to opperate. Also poor use of pathings which would mean these services clash and affect performance, so instead of making the pathings more efficiant they would rather they stopped running. Maybe that would explain why the Coastway lines has lost some of it's Class 377's in favour of the 313's introduced in 2010. When running a rail company like Southern it should be that all it's passengers benefit from a good service, not improve the service on 1 line i.e. Brighton Mainline and allow the others to get a worse service by introducing electric trains not built for modern standard. The lack of air con, 3 car formations, no toilets and the slow stopping pattern is without a doubt very off putting to use these on the trips Southern expect people to use them on i.e. Eastbourne/Seaford - Brighton - Portsmouth.

I get the impression that Southern and the Department for Transport are happy for the Coastway services to decline as long as the profit driven Brighton Mainline benefits from the losses of the Coastway's......which to me seems appalling really.

 

[tbtc]

I do find it odd how the infrastructure exists to run services between the East and West Coastway with reversal at Brighton Platform 3 yet none currently opperate. Connex seemed to have the right idea by opperating the SO Eastbourne - Bournemouth services as well as the West Worthing - Seaford services, avoiding the need to change trains and travel from 1 end of Brighton station to the other, and wait around. From what I gather the only reason the workings stopped and were cut back to Brighton was that they blocked all the running lines......so performance was at risk on the Brighton Mainline services. Sounds like too much focus on making maximum profit from the Brighton services, and lack of consideration for the Coastway services to opperate. Also poor use of pathings which would mean these services clash and affect performance, so instead of making the pathings more efficiant they would rather they stopped running. Maybe that would explain why the Coastway lines has lost some of it's Class 377's in favour of the 313's introduced in 2010. When running a rail company like Southern it should be that all it's passengers benefit from a good service, not improve the service on 1 line i.e. Brighton Mainline and allow the others to get a worse service by introducing electric trains not built for modern standard. The lack of air con, 3 car formations, no toilets and the slow stopping pattern is without a doubt very off putting to use these on the trips Southern expect people to use them on i.e. Eastbourne/Seaford - Brighton - Portsmouth.

I get the impression that Southern and the Department for Transport are happy for the Coastway services to decline as long as the profit driven Brighton Mainline benefits from the losses of the Coastway's......which to me seems appalling really.

Yes yes, it's all a big conspiracy.

But is there any real evidence for significant passenger numbers on routes like Eastbourne - Portsmouth? You can't deny that the Brighton - London services are busy.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Yes yes, it's all a big conspiracy.

But is there any real evidence for significant passenger numbers on routes like Eastbourne - Portsmouth? You can't deny that the Brighton - London services are busy.

Well considering how many people i've witnessed travel from one end of Brighton station to connect with the other Coastway service there seems to be significant demand. Some of the services i've been on have been full and standing.

Also you should see what it's like when football is on at Falmer and the Lewes bonfire is happening.

 

[Ivo]

Well considering how many people i've witnessed travel from one end of Brighton station to connect with the other Coastway service there seems to be significant demand. Some of the services i've been on have been full and standing.

You have to remember though that any service running on both Coastway routes will block the other platforms, and can only access one specific platform (either 3 or 6, I forget which way round the platforms go). This problem is greater than the benefit of running through services which in practice aren't that busy anyway; is Brighton not the main market on the Coastway route, hence most routes terminating there?

Now, on the other hand, if there were underground platforms [probably A and B as opposed to 9 and 10], this wouldn't be a problem. But at present the station is coping adequately for such a massive expense to not be necessary.

 

[SussexSpotter]

You have to remember though that any service running on both Coastway routes will block the other platforms, and can only access one specific platform (either 3 or 6, I forget which way round the platforms go). This problem is greater than the benefit of running through services which in practice aren't that busy anyway; is Brighton not the main market on the Coastway route, hence most routes terminating there?

Now, on the other hand, if there were underground platforms [probably A and B as opposed to 9 and 10], this wouldn't be a problem. But at present the station is coping adequately for such a massive expense to not be necessary.

There has been talk of remodelling Brighton station to allow for direct East - West Coastway services to opperate more efficiantly, also you have to remember that by allowing a through service to opperate it means more platform space available for London services where the East Coastway platforms are as there wouldn't be the need to opperate say seperate West Worthing - Brighton and Brighton - Seaford services, this could come in handy if Brighton Mainline 2 is built as there would only be the need to use 1 platform instead of 2, and a spare platform for the services via Uckfield. There was even mention a while ago of an East - West link avoiding Brighton but I believe that was thrown out because of cost and the negative impact it would have on Brighton. There used to be an underground tunnel which ran under Brighton station back in the early 1900's that linked Brighton goods yard to the West Coastway, but it was filled in and blocked off. I think the plan of building the link was to re-instate this and connect it to the East Coastway, but there has since been a development at Brighton next to the station on the site of the former railway works so re-instating this link probably wouldn't be practical now.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I do find it odd how the infrastructure exists to run services between the East and West Coastway with reversal at Brighton Platform 3 yet none currently opperate. Connex seemed to have the right idea by opperating the SO Eastbourne - Bournemouth services as well as the West Worthing - Seaford services, avoiding the need to change trains and travel from 1 end of Brighton station to the other, and wait around. From what I gather the only reason the workings stopped and were cut back to Brighton was that they blocked all the running lines......so performance was at risk on the Brighton Mainline services.

Yes, it blocked 6 of 8 platforms at Brighton. Even if it was only for one train, that's a minute or so that all other platforms are out of action. Don't forget that the Brighton Main Line is one of the fullest in the country. If a train leaves Brighton two minutes down because of, let's say, an Eastbourne-Worthing train crossing late, it could well be 20 plus down into London, around Three Bridges and the Windmill Jns area of Croydon, paths really are that tight. I can't see any benefit whatsoever in creating this potential issue for the sake of cross-Brighton services. How many people actually travel from Eastbourne-Wothring etc direct, without having a break or similar in brigthon first? I doubt it's nearly enough to justify the issues it could cause for London trains.
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But there'd be less paths and opportunities in which to reach them as the combined Coastway trains would block the free platforms off!

 

[SussexSpotter]

Yes, it blocked 6 of 8 platforms at Brighton. Even if it was only for one train, that's a minute or so that all other platforms are out of action. Don't forget that the Brighton Main Line is one of the fullest in the country. If a train leaves Brighton two minutes down because of, let's say, an Eastbourne-Worthing train crossing late, it could well be 20 plus down into London, around Three Bridges and the Windmill Jns area of Croydon, paths really are that tight. I can't see any benefit whatsoever in creating this potential issue for the sake of cross-Brighton services. How many people actually travel from Eastbourne-Wothring etc direct, without having a break or similar in brigthon first? I doubt it's nearly enough to justify the issues it could cause for London trains.
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But there'd be less paths and opportunities in which to reach them as the combined Coastway trains would block the free platforms off!

The only other option then would be to build an avoiding line or flyover that runs across the Colas Engineering Depot at Brighton, maybe not the tunnel idea as it wouldn't be practical now anyway. An avoiding line now would involve extensive remodelling work to Montpelier Junction with crossovers or a bridge, and would still mean blocking the lines if the crossovers were installed but for a much shorter period of time. It could work and possibly the construction of a new station say Brighton West where Holland Road Hault used to be could still allow for the Brighton area to be served, as well as the current London Road (Brighton) as another alternative. It could even have the benefit of reducing overcrowding at Brighton during peak time. The Colas depot could be relocated where the disused goods yard is. I'm not sure if this particular idea has been suggested but the remodelling of Brighton station would still mean blocking all the lines and rebuilding platforms, therefore the avoiding line makes the most sense to me. The current service out of Brighton could still opperate but additional services could use the avoiding line, so no real negative impact on Brighton station.

 

[Eagle]

Yes, it blocked 6 of 8 platforms at Brighton. Even if it was only for one train, that's a minute or so that all other platforms are out of action.

Exactly. Anything that has to cross every line at a busy station (such as Brighton) is a Bad Thing, especially if it has to reverse. That's one of the reasons that the Ordsall chord is appearing in Manchester; currently services from the Airport to the Stalybridge direction have to cross the whole throat, and there'd be far more capacity if they didn't do that.

It's also the reason why Coventry to Leicester through services (unlike some proposals round here, there's a definite large market for these) had to end during the WCML modernization; reversing at Nuneaton effectively blocked the entire WCML for a couple of minutes. In fact the track that makes such a reversal possible was deliberately removed with this in mind.

 

[ushawk]

"Cross-Coastway" services CANNOT happen as it simply blocks off any incoming/outgoing trains on the Mainline for a couple of minutes. This is the reason why the old Connex services from Eastbourne to Hove/Worthing/Littlehampton were stopped at Brighton, even a Seaford service which left from P3 at Brighton, has been re-platformed to prevent the throat being blocked. If you timetable services right, there is no need for through services.

Pointless having a fly-over too, is it really worth spending millions on one which would be used at most half-hourly ?

 

[tbtc]

Well considering how many people i've witnessed travel from one end of Brighton station to connect with the other Coastway service there seems to be significant demand. Some of the services i've been on have been full and standing.

Also you should see what it's like when football is on at Falmer and the Lewes bonfire is happening.

So that's a couple of dozen football games a year plus one bonfire a year?

 

[Ivo]

A bonfire is just a bonfire and will not attract that many people. As for B&HA, they will play at most approximately 30 games at home per season (allowing for cup games). Even if everyone travelled as you say, that's only 750K - a year. And the vast majority of travellers to Falmer for football do not come from the West Coastway! I had always been under the impression that the main benefit of Falmer station's position was for the benefit of people travelling from the east.

 

[elementalpat]

I know this is a long way away, but the fully completed Thameslink Programe will affect services too if they will go to Worthing or Eastbourne.

 

[Eagle]

I know this is a long way away, but the fully completed Thameslink Programe will affect services too if they will go to Worthing or Eastbourne.

It is not currently planned for Thameslink services to go to the Coastway. (The current list of southern termini is Brighton, Three Bridges, Horsham, Caterham, East Grinstead, Sevenoaks and Maidstone East, with some peak services to Tunbridge Wells and Ashford.)

 

[OxtedL]

A bonfire is just a bonfire and will not attract that many people.

Are you aware of the Lewes Bonfire? That's a bit of a silly thing to be saying if you are.

 

[Ivo]

Yes, I am. But it's still just a bonfire, even if it is a highly popular one. And it's only one night a year.

 

[OxtedL]

I entirely agree with the fact that cross-Brighton services are a bad idea, particularly when there are a large number of trains to use in both directions anyway.

I was just pedant-ing the whole "will not attract that many people" thing.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Pointless having a fly-over too, is it really worth spending millions on one which would be used at most half-hourly ?

If it reduces overcrowding and allows for an increased service then yes! Could certainly be useful for diversionary purposes also.
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A bonfire is just a bonfire and will not attract that many people. As for B&HA, they will play at most approximately 30 games at home per season (allowing for cup games). Even if everyone travelled as you say, that's only 750K - a year. And the vast majority of travellers to Falmer for football do not come from the West Coastway! I had always been under the impression that the main benefit of Falmer station's position was for the benefit of people travelling from the east.

Well the key case for Brighton Mainline 2 is so Falmer gets a better service and there is improved access to Falmer stadium. I think a new spur linking the East and West coastway could have many benefits and compete with the A27 and A259. The roads round Eastbourne are manic in the Summer.