Brighton > London Terminals query

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
48
Location
Essex
Hi all

Last Friday I travelled from London to Brighton on an Anytime Return (Any Permitted).

I travelled from London Bridge on a Southern service, which was fine.

However, on my return from Brighton, there were some delays due to signalling issues. On seeing everyone rush for the faster service to London Victoria, I opted to take the Thameslink service to Bedford on seeing that the train called at Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras. Either one of those stations seemed fine to me, although, in the end, I got off at Blackfriars without any issue.

Am I right in thinking that I wouldn't have been able to alight at Farringdon or St Pancras with a London Terminals ticket? I'm curious as to if St Pancras or Farringdon would be valid, as an onward journey to either Stratford International or Liverpool Street (via LU) may be of use in the future.

Thanks. :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

LexyBoy

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
4,472
Location
North of the rivers
No, it's not valid beyond City Thameslink.

You may continue through London Terminals stations to other London Terminals, but you may not travel to a non-London Terminal once you've reached one. Farringdon is not a London Terminal, ergo St Pancras is not permitted (and IIRC the barriers are set to reject most tickets from the South).
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,447
Location
Merseyside
If I was not on Rail Forums then I would have no idea that a London Terminals ticket was not valid to St Panras. I would think that having got on a train at Brighton I could get off at any of the Central London stations and would consider St Pancras to be one of the terminals. I would have no idea otherwise and do not see it well advertised.

So for clearity when coming from the South on a London Terminals ticket you cannot go past City Thameslik (or is it Farringdon?)
 
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
48
Location
Essex
No, it's not valid beyond City Thameslink.

You may continue through London Terminals stations to other London Terminals, but you may not travel to a non-London Terminal once you've reached one. Farringdon is not a London Terminal, ergo St Pancras is not permitted (and IIRC the barriers are set to reject most tickets from the South).

Thanks for the clarification.

If I was not on Rail Forums then I would have no idea that a London Terminals ticket was not valid to St Panras. I would think that having got on a train at Brighton I could get off at any of the Central London stations and would consider St Pancras to be one of the terminals. I would have no idea otherwise and do not see it well advertised.

So for clearity when coming from the South on a London Terminals ticket you cannot go past City Thameslik (or is it Farringdon?)

Yes, I agree with you that it's not very clear for people who aren't aware of this forum or don't make rail journeys very often. It was really only thinking about queries on here about London Terminals that made me question it. In the end, Blackfriars was the perfect place for me to alight last week so that was fine, but I could have continued to St Pancras if I hadn't thought about it in more depth.
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,698
So for clearity when coming from the South on a London Terminals ticket you cannot go past City Thameslik (or is it Farringdon?)

You cannot go past City Thameslink. Farringdon is not, and never has been, a London Terminal.
 
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
48
Location
Essex
So the first place it is permitted to alight is Blackfriars [London Terminal], with City Thameslink [London Terminal] as the final destination. Farringdon is not a London Terminal and therefore not valid as an exit, and you cannot travel through it in order to reach St Pancras, which is a London Terminal station.

Presumably, you could buy a Brighton > St Pancras ticket with St Pancras as the named destination if you needed to travel there?
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,447
Location
Merseyside
And yes, or anything after City Thameslink you can buy a ticket to St Pancras as the named station and I see that it is possible to buy a ticket to Farringdon as a named station on some (but not all) flows. I bet hardly anyone in terms of the general public knows this City Thameslink rule.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
3,284
And yes, or anything after City Thameslink you can buy a ticket to St Pancras as the named station and I see that it is possible to buy a ticket to Farringdon as a named station on some (but not all) flows. I bet hardly anyone in terms of the general public knows this City Thameslink rule.
When I was working in the Farringdon area there were regular notices about ticket validity so any regular traveller with an ability to read English should be aware.
 

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,033
Worth noting that tickets between Bedford and stations to Kentish Town and London are issued to 'London Thameslink' rather than 'London Terminals'. London Thameslink allows travel to any of St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslonk, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

A similar situation will exist when The Elizabeth Line opens. A ticket from, say, Reading to London Terminals is unlikely to be valid beyond Paddington. I wonder if we'll see a 'London Elizabeth' destination to allow travel to the central London Elizabeth Line stations. I'm sure TfL will just want everyone to use contactless or Oyster but this won't suit everyone, especially those whose journeys start outside the Oyster area.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
4,961
Location
Wittersham Kent
I reckon that when the Elizabeth line and Thameslink are complete tickets to destinations in London including London Terminals will be abolished along with all the Thameslink/Southern etc tickets. Ticket will simply be to London Zone 1. Paper tickets will be at a premium over Oyster/Key ITso and contactless.
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,447
Location
Merseyside
That would be interesting as if tickets were to London Zone 1 then, as per tickets currently issued to London Zone 1, they would have to include a single journey within Zone 1 on the London Underground.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
26,402
Worth noting that tickets between Bedford and stations to Kentish Town and London are issued to 'London Thameslink' rather than 'London Terminals'. London Thameslink allows travel to any of St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslonk, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

A similar situation will exist when The Elizabeth Line opens. A ticket from, say, Reading to London Terminals is unlikely to be valid beyond Paddington. I wonder if we'll see a 'London Elizabeth' destination to allow travel to the central London Elizabeth Line stations. I'm sure TfL will just want everyone to use contactless or Oyster but this won't suit everyone, especially those whose journeys start outside the Oyster area.

I hope we don't see that, because London Thameslink is obsolescent, and according to the TSGN franchise spec is supposed to be removed because it is considered confusing, as it only applies from stations on the MML.

Any future scheme should apply to all routes, or none. And with Crossrail and Thameslink having an interchange at Farringdon, wouldn't people with a ticket to a hypothetical London Elizabeth or London Thameslink expect to be able to 'turn the corner' onto the other line, the logic being for example, "if I've paid to Liverpool St from Reading, why can't I divert to St Pancras?"
 
Last edited:

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
25,076
Location
UK
Plenty of people get confused. Like Great Northern for example.



The £9.30 fare is the correct one, which you can just see underneath the incorrectly offered ticket that could open a whole world of pain!
 
Last edited:

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
7,785
Location
Rail replacement bus cab
Plenty of people get confused. Like Great Northern for example.



The £9.30 fare is the correct one, which you can just see underneath the incorrectly offered ticket that could open a whole world of pain!

The industry is well aware that TVMs will issue a London Terminals ticket when the user has selected one which would require a cross London transfer. Doing anything effective about it is in the "too difficult" pile. Same goes for journeys starting from a London Terminal which would require an Underground transfer to begin with.

When I worked at a London Terminal 5 years ago, this generated several requests for refunds every day after people were turned away from the Underground.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
25,076
Location
UK
And what happens when you meet an RPI on the train at Blackfriars or at the gates? Do they just charge an excess being fully aware of the problem?

It's lucky I knew, and read the description, and I tweeted GN who seemed surprised and said they'd fix it. Seems like they may not fix it then!

Is it the responsibility of the passenger to check that offered tickets are valid?!
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,033
I hope we don't see that, because London Thameslink is obsolescent, and according to the TSGN franchise spec is supposed to be removed because it is considered confusing, as it only applies from stations on the MML.

Any future scheme should apply to all routes, or none. And with Crossrail and Thameslink having an interchange at Farringdon, wouldn't people with a ticket to a hypothetical London Elizabeth or London Thameslink expect to be able to 'turn the corner' onto the other line, the logic being for example, "if I've paid to Liverpool St from Reading, why can't I divert to St Pancras?"

It's going to be interesting to see what happens. If tickets are issued to Zone 1 there would be a revenue loss (not acceptable to the TOC/DfT) or an increase in price which would not be acceptable to passengers who didn't require the additional onward journey.

And what happens when you meet an RPI on the train at Blackfriars or at the gates? Do they just charge an excess being fully aware of the problem?

It's lucky I knew, and read the description, and I tweeted GN who seemed surprised and said they'd fix it. Seems like they may not fix it then!

Is it the responsibility of the passenger to check that offered tickets are valid?!

Well this is GTR! Seriously I wonder how many people have been chinged for this. I know it was slightly different but we had a thread in the disputes section about how reliable TVMs were. I could see GTR making a similar claim if they were prosecuting someone using that ticket at Blackfriars.
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
2,580
On a similar note I purchased a London Bridge - Brighton return Route Thameslink only, (Thameslink being significantly cheaper than Any Permitted, the service was Southern branded stock and was repeated announced on board as a Southern service to confuse matters) and rather than saying London Terminals it actually said London Bridge.

On returning I noticed there is quite a significant gap in Thameslink services to London Bridge at tea time so after asking if it was ok I caught the Bedford train alighting at Blackfriars and the barriers accepted it.

Was this acceptance due to some sort of London Bridge rebuilding works allowance, or despite the ticket specifically saying London Bridge, was it a London Terminals ticket in disguise.
 
Last edited:

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,447
Location
Merseyside
Next time you are in that situation with that ticket type, just get on any Southern train heading to Brighton. If there is not one get anything by Southern to East Croydon and change there onto either another Southern or Thameslink service. I have done this many a time as described below.

I have held many a London Bridge to Brighton ticket routed Thameslink Only. I get on Southern, Gatwick Express services and Thameslink ones. This is because Thameslink is now a defunt train company and the company that uses the above 3 brand names is actually all GoVia Thameslink Railway. (GTR) In short, your ticket is valid on all 3! No need to pay extra.
 
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
48
Location
Essex
Worth noting that tickets between Bedford and stations to Kentish Town and London are issued to 'London Thameslink' rather than 'London Terminals'. London Thameslink allows travel to any of St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslonk, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

A similar situation will exist when The Elizabeth Line opens. A ticket from, say, Reading to London Terminals is unlikely to be valid beyond Paddington. I wonder if we'll see a 'London Elizabeth' destination to allow travel to the central London Elizabeth Line stations. I'm sure TfL will just want everyone to use contactless or Oyster but this won't suit everyone, especially those whose journeys start outside the Oyster area.

So, in essence, there's plenty of choice if you're travelling south from Bedford, but less if you're travelling north from Brighton.

I was just looking at St Pancras > Brighton return tickets on brfares.com and it seems they're issued as a London Terminals ticket. With the City Thameslink restriction in mind, surely such a ticket wouldn't prevent you from returning to your origin station? Would something else be coded into the ticket to operate the barriers at St Pancras?

Plenty of people get confused. Like Great Northern for example.



The £9.30 fare is the correct one, which you can just see underneath the incorrectly offered ticket that could open a whole world of pain!

I'm sure that most folk would opt for the £8.00 fare, too.

Would the £9.30 ticket feature a Maltese cross to permit the cross-London interchange via Underground?


Next time you are in that situation with that ticket type, just get on any Southern train heading to Brighton. If there is not one get anything by Southern to East Croydon and change there onto either another Southern or Thameslink service. I have done this many a time as described below.

I have held many a London Bridge to Brighton ticket routed Thameslink Only. I get on Southern, Gatwick Express services and Thameslink ones. This is because Thameslink is now a defunt train company and the company that uses the above 3 brand names is actually all GoVia Thameslink Railway. (GTR) In short, your ticket is valid on all 3! No need to pay extra.

Thanks for the info. I opted for the Any Permitted purely because I wasn't sure what time I would be returning and wanted the flexibility of being able to hop on anything that was London-bound. Will keep this in mind for the future.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
25,076
Location
UK
The Thameslink ticket is marked TL only, so no tube.

I have no idea how quickly they'd allow usage during disruption (possibly including the 63 bus then).
 
Last edited:

maniacmartin

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 May 2012
Messages
5,236
Location
Croydon
Next time you are in that situation with that ticket type, just get on any Southern train heading to Brighton. If there is not one get anything by Southern to East Croydon and change there onto either another Southern or Thameslink service. I have done this many a time as described below.

I have held many a London Bridge to Brighton ticket routed Thameslink Only. I get on Southern, Gatwick Express services and Thameslink ones. This is because Thameslink is now a defunt train company and the company that uses the above 3 brand names is actually all GoVia Thameslink Railway. (GTR) In short, your ticket is valid on all 3! No need to pay extra.

I don't advise this.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,137
I don't advise this.

Neither do I. Sorry.

Not everyone appreciates having potential hassle to save a few pennies.

This discussion, if anyone is still interested, can be had in a separate thread.
 

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,033
So, in essence, there's plenty of choice if you're travelling south from Bedford, but less if you're travelling north from Brighton.

An Any Permitted ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to travel to Victoria, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Vauxhall, London Bridge, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Cannon Street. Obviously it's necessary to change to get to some of those destinations but there seems to be a fair bit of choice.

An Any Permitted ticket from Bedford to London Thameslink is valid to travel to St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle.
 

b0b

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,300
It's lucky I knew, and read the description, and I tweeted GN who seemed surprised and said they'd fix it. Seems like they may not fix it then!

I'd be shocked if they can, this problem (printing London Terminals for stations "past" Farringdon) has been around at least 20 years!
 
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
48
Location
Essex
The Thameslink ticket is marked TL only, so no tube.

I have no idea how quickly they'd allow usage during disruption (possibly including the 63 bus then).

Please forgive me if I am missing something really obvious. I can see how you'd go from City Thameslink to Blackfriars, but what's the expected route to get to CT if you're travelling south from Welwyn?

An Any Permitted ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to travel to Victoria, Waterloo, Waterloo East, Vauxhall, London Bridge, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Cannon Street. Obviously it's necessary to change to get to some of those destinations but there seems to be a fair bit of choice.

An Any Permitted ticket from Bedford to London Thameslink is valid to travel to St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle.

Sure, yes. I think I just found it odd on that particular Bedford > Brighton service that if you were making a direct journey without changing then you seem to have more choice travelling south. I'm glad that I know about the City Thameslink rule now, though.

Thanks to everyone for their help. :)
 

pepperpot80

Member
Joined
29 Sep 2009
Messages
22
Location
Hove
Please forgive me if I am missing something really obvious. I can see how you'd go from City Thameslink to Blackfriars, but what's the expected route to get to CT if you're travelling south from Welwyn?

Tickets from Great Northern stations to a named station in the Thameslink core (e.g. Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge*, and Elephant & Castle) are routed "via City Thameslink" or "Not Underground", with the passenger expected to walk from King's Cross to St. Pancras, for connections using Thameslink services.

Some particularly interesting tickets include Essex Road - Elephant & Castle, presumably allowing travel strictly via Finsbury Park, King's Cross & St. Pancras as described above?

*London Bridge here is subject to alternative travel arrangements during the Thameslink programme; in this case the available alternatives are:
  • Use the Northern Line from King's Cross St Pancras to London Bridge
  • Use Thameslink services between St. Pancras & London Blackfriars, and then travel on the 17, 381, or RV1 buses.
  • Use Thameslink services between St. Pancras & London Blackfriars, and then travel on the London Underground via Bank/Monument
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,698
Would the £9.30 ticket feature a Maltese cross to permit the cross-London interchange via Underground?

No, because it is routed "Not Underground".


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


On the wider question of London Terminals and London Thameslink, perhaps the solution with the opening of Crossrail will be to amend both to something like London not underground or London (National Rail only). The biggest hindrance to any change will be fitting enough information on to CCST tickets due to the limited space of the origin and destination fields. There would be a benefit for some customers in terms of slightly wider journey opportunities but this would not have a significant cost in the same way having all tickets issued to London Zone U1 would do. There would perhaps be a cost to the industry but my feeling is that it would be small and would be customer friendly. The alternatives, as pointed out upthread, would be increased payments by customers for tickets or increased payments from TOCs to TfL.
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Established Member
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
9,033
On the wider question of London Terminals and London Thameslink, perhaps the solution with the opening of Crossrail will be to amend both to something like London not underground or London (National Rail only). The biggest hindrance to any change will be fitting enough information on to CCST tickets due to the limited space of the origin and destination fields. There would be a benefit for some customers in terms of slightly wider journey opportunities but this would not have a significant cost in the same way having all tickets issued to London Zone U1 would do. There would perhaps be a cost to the industry but my feeling is that it would be small and would be customer friendly. The alternatives, as pointed out upthread, would be increased payments by customers for tickets or increased payments from TOCs to TfL.

A sensible suggestion although someone will need to tell TfL that Crossrail is 'National Rail' ;)
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
4,961
Location
Wittersham Kent
When Thameslink and Crossrail open theres going to need to be a massive re-distribution of income amongst the operators. It would be better as Ive said before to go to a wholly zone system. Punters from the sticks would get a ticket to zone 1 rather than london terminals. The Southern/ Thameslink fares could be amalgamated at the same time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top