Brighton to London terminals via any permitted route, which stations can I break journey at?

Mitha

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Is there a map that shows which stations I can break journey at?

For example can I break my journey at horsham? Or Southampton?

My season ticket is Brighton to London terminals via any permitted route.

Hove, three bridges, gatwick. I am just curious how break journeys work.
 
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JonathanH

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For example can I break my journey at horsham? Or Southampton?
No

As far as East Croydon, the only permitted route from Brighton to London is the direct one or to go via Hove and the Cliftonville Curve, or Lewes and Plumpton, but you can break your journey as much as you like at the stations on the way.

The relevant maps in the routeing guide are LB and VB. Those maps are here.
(While Horsham is shown on map LB, you are not allowed to double back so you can't go there just because it is on the map.)

From East Croydon north, map LB allows travel to
Victoria or Waterloo via Clapham Junction
Charing Cross / City Thameslink/ Blackfriars / Cannon Street / London Bridge via any route via Tulse Hill or Forest Hill.
and map VB the additional route into Victoria via Brixton from Herne Hill.

Again, break of journey at any station on those routes is fine.
 
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swt_passenger

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“Any permitted route” is regularly misunderstood. It means you can use any of the permitted routes, not that you can use any possible route…
 

AlbertBeale

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No

As far as East Croydon, the only permitted route from Brighton to London is the direct one or to go via Hove and the Cliftonville Curve, or Lewes and Plumpton, but you can break your journey as much as you like at the stations on the way.

The relevant maps in the routeing guide are LB and VB. Those maps are here.
(While Horsham is shown on map LB, you are not allowed to double back so you can't go there just because it is on the map.)

From East Croydon north, map LB allows travel to
Victoria or Waterloo via Clapham Junction
Charing Cross / City Thameslink/ Blackfriars / Cannon Street / London Bridge via any route via Tulse Hill or Forest Hill.
and map VB the additional route into Victoria via Brixton from Herne Hill.

Again, break of journey at any station on those routes is fine.

And also from East Croydon via Clapham Junction, Waterloo and Waterloo East to get to Charing Cross or London Bridge (and Blackfriars, City Thameslink etc), should you want to go that way round?
 

JB_B

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No. Kensington Olympia is not a London Terminal. There is no validity on that line from Clapham Junction to any station.

The routeing guide distance data used by journey planners includes a link between Kensington Olympia and Acton Main line (even though no service now exists). That means the shortest route from Brighton to Paddington runs through Olympia. In the absence of any service I think it would be difficult to get a journey planner to generate an itinerary going that way and I wouldn't recommend trying this without an itinerary.
 

JonathanH

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The routeing guide distance data used by journey planners includes a link between Kensington Olympia and Acton Main line (even though no service now exists). That means the shortest route from Brighton to Paddington runs through Olympia. In the absence of any service I think it would be difficult to get a journey planner to generate an itinerary going that way and I wouldn't recommend trying this without an itinerary.
That is all well and good but how are you identifying London Paddington as a valid London Terminal for Brighton?

It certainly isn't implied here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx

'London Terminal' stations​

Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services.

For example, a ticket from Woking to London Terminals is valid to:
  • London Waterloo
  • London Victoria (via Clapham Junction)
  • London Bridge
  • London Blackfriars
  • City Thameslink
  • London Charing Cross
  • London Waterloo East
  • London Cannon Street (via London Bridge)
It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport, such as the London Underground or London Buses.
or indeed by this map on the same page (which shows how London Terminals / London Thameslink services work from the south).
1634545331746.png
 

JB_B

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That is all well and good but how are you identifying London Paddington as a valid London Terminal for Brighton?

It certainly isn't implied here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx


or indeed by this map on the same page (which shows how London Terminals / London Thameslink services work from the south).
View attachment 104237

The rail industry attempts to list which terminals are appropriate for which origins ( both in public-facing info like the page you've linked to in the analogous London Terminals Mapping data feed.)

These lists have no impact at all on whether a route is permitted and journey planners make no reference this information when establishing validity.

See - e.g this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...0948-mustnt-go-via-oxford.218904/post-5194025



Usually the available maps and the limitations imposed by the in-not-out rule mean that the available permitted routes are a good match to the terminals listed in the LTM feed but there are occasionally exceptions.

It's entirely sensible not to list Paddington for Brighton because (even though a permitted route exists) there is no service over that permitted route.
 

JonathanH

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It's entirely sensible not to list Paddington for Brighton because (even though a permitted route exists) there is no service over that permitted route.
Why is Paddington, in your view, a permitted London Terminal for Brighton? Do you equally infer that Euston is as well?

(I note that I recall a poster at the Shepherds Bush gateline that makes it very clear they do not accept tickets to London Terminals.)
 

JB_B

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I think that a ticket to London Terminals ( Fares Group 1072) is valid to any group member via a permitted route where a permitted route exists.
 

bangor-toad

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Hi,
I don't know exactly where you are travelling to or from but do check out the prices to stations nearby too. If they are in the same group, you can get some additional validity for no extra costs. Maybe that's useful...

For example, the monthly Brighton to London Terminals season is £490.
You can travel as mentioned above by JonathanH via Hove or Lewes.

A monthly Portslade to London Terminals season is also £490.
You can travel via Hove, Brighton and still via Lewes and break your journey at any station in between.
You can start / finish your journey in Brighton or if you ever need or want to go that way you can just get a slightly different ticket for the same price. It might be useful for an evening trip out?


Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

AlbertBeale

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And also from East Croydon via Clapham Junction, Waterloo and Waterloo East to get to Charing Cross or London Bridge (and Blackfriars, City Thameslink etc), should you want to go that way round?

Hi - the question mark at the end of my former posting on this thread was because I was very much hoping that those of you who know massively more than I do [ie many of you] about these things would explicitly confirm the routeing that I mentioned. I feel fairly confident about it, personally, but my confidence would be greatly enhanced if others said so too! Thanks.
 

JonathanH

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Hi - the question mark at the end of my former posting on this thread was because I was very much hoping that those of you who know massively more than I do [ie many of you] about these things would explicitly confirm the routeing that I mentioned. I feel fairly confident about it, personally, but my confidence would be greatly enhanced if others said so too! Thanks.
Yes, given it is a season ticket, it is trivially valid beyond Waterloo to any of the stations you mention.
 

AlbertBeale

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Yes, given it is a season ticket, it is trivially valid beyond Waterloo to any of the stations you mention.

Thanks! Though I was thinking of the validity of Brighton-London routes in general, including with a non-season ticket (does that make a difference?). That is, heading to London Bridge (etc) via Clapham Junction and Waterloo rather than direct. I don't fully understand whether the routing guide would allow that; but as London stations which "face south" are lumped together as London Terminals, I'm assuming that's OK? Also, it seems that East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - London Bridge isn't more than 3 miles longer than East Croydon - London Bridge direct. But I don't fully understand all the subtleties, I suspect.

,
 

alistairlees

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Thanks! Though I was thinking of the validity of Brighton-London routes in general, including with a non-season ticket (does that make a difference?). That is, heading to London Bridge (etc) via Clapham Junction and Waterloo rather than direct. I don't fully understand whether the routing guide would allow that; but as London stations which "face south" are lumped together as London Terminals, I'm assuming that's OK? Also, it seems that East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - London Bridge isn't more than 3 miles longer than East Croydon - London Bridge direct. But I don't fully understand all the subtleties, I suspect.

,
Once you get to London Bridge from the south / east, you can go to:
- Cannon St
- Blackfriars then City Thameslink
- Waterloo East then Charing Cross
- Waterloo East then (walk) then Waterloo then Vauxhall

Once you get to Vauxhall from the west then you can go to (all via Waterloo / Waterloo East):
- Charing Cross
- London Bridge then Cannon St
- London Bridge then Blackfriars then City Thameslink

Once you get to Blackfriars then you can go to:
- City Thameslink
- London Bridge then Cannon St
- London Bridge then Waterloo East then Charing Cross
- London Bridge then Waterloo East then Waterloo then Vauxhall

Once you get to Victoria that's it

(This is all assuming that you have a "London Terminals" ticket.)
 

AlbertBeale

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Once you get to London Bridge from the south / east, you can go to:
- Cannon St
- Blackfriars then City Thameslink
- Waterloo East then Charing Cross
- Waterloo East then (walk) then Waterloo then Vauxhall

Once you get to Vauxhall from the west then you can go to (all via Waterloo / Waterloo East):
- Charing Cross
- London Bridge then Cannon St
- London Bridge then Blackfriars then City Thameslink

Once you get to Blackfriars then you can go to:
- City Thameslink
- London Bridge then Cannon St
- London Bridge then Waterloo East then Charing Cross
- London Bridge then Waterloo East then Waterloo then Vauxhall

Once you get to Victoria that's it

(This is all assuming that you have a "London Terminals" ticket.)

Great - many thanks. Clearly "once you get to Vauxhall" is coming in via Clapham Junction.

And if the ticket is valid from Brighton to, say, City Thameslink not London Terminals (ie a ticket to a Thameslink station), but with no "T/L only" route restriction (these ones are simply "not Underground"), could there be any problem using that via Clapham Junction, Waterloo, London Bridge instead of East Croydon to London Bridge direct?
 

alistairlees

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London Thameslink comprises:
- Elephant & Castle
- London Bridge
- Blackfriars
- City Thameslink
- Farringdon
- St Pancras

It's really intended to be used via the more direct routes to Blackfriars or London Bridge, but some people have used them via Vauxhall / Waterloo / Waterloo East, or to Victoria.

Sometimes Thameslink trains have been diverted to Victoria, which would seem fine, but otherwise I don't suggest going via the more roundabout routes.
 

AlbertBeale

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London Thameslink comprises:
- Elephant & Castle
- London Bridge
- Blackfriars
- City Thameslink
- Farringdon
- St Pancras

It's really intended to be used via the more direct routes to Blackfriars or London Bridge, but some people have used them via Vauxhall / Waterloo / Waterloo East, or to Victoria.

Sometimes Thameslink trains have been diverted to Victoria, which would seem fine, but otherwise I don't suggest going via the more roundabout routes.

Thanks yet again! Of course I can understand their lack of validity to Victoria. I guess your "don't suggest" is on the basis that you could be hassled, rather than that it's technically not allowed.
 

akm

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That is all well and good but how are you identifying London Paddington as a valid London Terminal for Brighton?

It certainly isn't implied here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx


or indeed by this map on the same page (which shows how London Terminals / London Thameslink services work from the south).
View attachment 104237
That particular page has come up here before,in which discussions in which discussions it was generally agreed that - directly contrary to what it says there - Woking to London Terminals is in fact completely valid to Euston (using a pure-rail route via Willesden Jn)
 

Surreytraveller

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And to Kensington Olympia via Clapham Jn?
Olympia used to be part of London Brit Rail once upon a time. Not sure when it ceased to be - whether it was when Connex's Brighton to Rugby service commenced, or at privatisation, or before that, I cannot remember now
 

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wellhouse

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If you want to regularly travel via Horsham and break your journey at any station on the Arun Valley line, a (slightly more expensive) Worthing-London Terminals ticket is valid via Brighton, Lewes, or Horsham, but not valid on the East Grinstead line.
 

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