Bristol Diesel Charge

[Lucan]

Bristol City Council have approved a scheme to ban private diesel cars from the city centre and dockside areas, and are to charge diesel buses, coaches and HGVs £100 per day to enter this and a much wider area (roughly the entire inner city). This would affect not only most local bus routes but also tourist coaches to eg the dockside industrial museums and SS Great Britain. This is subject to central government approval.

You would think they would want to encourage public transport, even if diesel, as it's emmissions per passenger-km are much lower than cars. Also this is the council that rejected the proposed Avon tramway system some years ago.

I don't see how they can impose a charge/ban on usage of the M32 - surely not within the council's remit?

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/congestion-zone-diesel-ban-council-3477818

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...PROVES-plans-ban-diesel-cars-city-centre.html

 

[goldisgood]

I believe I've read that the bus charge is only for more polluting buses, so anything Euro 5 (?) or 6 won't be charged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They indeed can't impose a charge on the M32...or anywhere else, as to do this requires primary legislation. I suspect when this is refused they will just cry foul on central Government.

Personally I think it's nuts, what they should do is follow the London LEZ and ULEZ specifications but select their own area. There needs to be one standard. Any sensible primary legislation on the matter will require that.

 

[Man of Kent]

There are two proposed zones - a wider Clean Air Zone, and a city Centre zone banning private diesels. Compliant commercial diesel vehicles (Euro VI) will not be charged - this includes PSVs, HGVs, taxis and private hire vehicles.
Further details on the www.cleanairforbristol.org website set up by the council, which avoids a third party interpretation of the 'facts'.

 

[carlberry]

Bristol City Council have approved a scheme to ban private diesel cars from the city centre and dockside areas, and are to charge diesel buses, coaches and HGVs £100 per day to enter this and a much wider area (roughly the entire inner city). This would affect not only most local bus routes but also tourist coaches to eg the dockside industrial museums and SS Great Britain. This is subject to central government approval.

You would think they would want to encourage public transport, even if diesel, as it's emmissions per passenger-km are much lower than cars. Also this is the council that rejected the proposed Avon tramway system some years ago.

I don't see how they can impose a charge/ban on usage of the M32 - surely not within the council's remit?

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/congestion-zone-diesel-ban-council-3477818

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...PROVES-plans-ban-diesel-cars-city-centre.html

Most schemes up to now have started with buses and ignored private cars. The Avon tramway scheme predates Bristol city council's existence in it's current form and I'm not aware that anybody rejecting it, the private backers never came up with any money. The proposal dosent cover the M32.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are two proposed zones - a wider Clean Air Zone, and a city Centre zone banning private diesels. Compliant commercial diesel vehicles (Euro VI) will not be charged - this includes PSVs, HGVs, taxis and private hire vehicles.
Further details on the www.cleanairforbristol.org website set up by the council, which avoids a third party interpretation of the 'facts'.

Most schemes up to now have started with buses and ignored private cars. The Avon tramway scheme predates Bristol city council's existence in it's current form and I'm not aware that anybody rejecting it, the private backers never came up with any money. The proposal dosent cover the M32.

Absolutely right. The M32 is not included so this is a misnomer. And if you're looking for facts, the Evening Post is NOT the place to start!

We have so many CAZs across the country where buses are essentially punished yet private cars are ignored. For once, a local authority has been brave in saying that we have to limit private car use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely right. The M32 is not included so this is a misnomer.

It isn't, but if you look at the map all you can do is go to the roundabout at the end, turn round and go back, so de-facto the last bit of it is! The benefit of doing this is that people can turn around and go back, rather than some fools no doubt stopping and attempting to turn on the motorway to avoid the charge.

We have so many CAZs across the country where buses are essentially punished yet private cars are ignored. For once, a local authority has been brave in saying that we have to limit private car use.

To me the London LEZ/ULEZ standards should be the standards in all such schemes including private cars. Councils should not be allowed to come up with their own. Consistency is needed. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say an EU standard is needed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It isn't, but if you look at the map all you can do is go to the roundabout at the end, turn round and go back, so de-facto the last bit of it is! The benefit of doing this is that people can turn around and go back, rather than some fools no doubt stopping and attempting to turn on the motorway to avoid the charge.



To me the London LEZ/ULEZ standards should be the standards in all such schemes including private cars. Councils should not be allowed to come up with their own. Consistency is needed. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say an EU standard is needed.

That's the A4032. They have ample opportunity to come off early at J3.

What Bristol are doing is smarter in that it is looking to restrict private car use, not just having low emission vehicles.

 

[carlberry]

To me the London LEZ/ULEZ standards should be the standards in all such schemes including private cars. Councils should not be allowed to come up with their own. Consistency is needed. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say an EU standard is needed.

When did London take over every other local authority? London has the congestion charge to reduce traffic and a never ending flow of money to pay for new railways.
An EU standard would be wonderful, however this makes little difference to the UK now!

 

[Lucan]

[The M32 isn't included ], but if you look at the map all you can do is go to the roundabout at the end, turn round and go back, so de-facto the last bit of it is!

It appears similar with the Portway. For those who don't know it, it is the road coming in from the top left of the map and leading through the gorge to the western end of the docks (the Cumberland Basin) which are crossed by an ugly flyover leading to roads going into south Bristol and also to further routes along the A370 to eg Portishead, Clevedon and Nailsea. The Portway is the A4 and forms part of a major north-south Bristol through route. The nearest alternatives are either through the city centre (via the M32 and in the ban anyway) or many miles away.

Unlike the M32 however there is no roundabout or reasonable turn round at the point where the car diesel ban starts. It is seen here :
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...McXRCNZ4qo5UojiqTUXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I cannot believe that central Government will allow the diesel car ban to include the stretch of the Portway, the bridge over the Cumberland Basin and the A370. It is no-where near the centre, forms a major through route, and few people live by it (see my link, it mostly in gorge or over water). It will also cut off North West Bristol (mostly well-to-do residential, eg Clifton) from South Bristol (mostly less well-off and industrial), a social and commercial divide. I would not put it past the council to have included it just out of spite.

 

[carlberry]

It appears similar with the Portway. For those who don't know it, it is the road coming in from the top left of the map and leading through the gorge to the western end of the docks (the Cumberland Basin) which are crossed by an ugly flyover leading to roads going into south Bristol and also to further routes along the A370 to eg Portishead, Clevedon and Nailsea. The Portway is the A4 and forms part of a major north-south Bristol through route. The nearest alternatives are either through the city centre (via the M32 and in the ban anyway) or many miles away.

Unlike the M32 however there is no roundabout or reasonable turn round at the point where the car diesel ban starts. It is seen here :
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...McXRCNZ4qo5UojiqTUXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I cannot believe that central Government will allow the diesel car ban to include the stretch of the Portway, the bridge over the Cumberland Basin and the A370. It is no-where near the centre, forms a major through route, and few people live by it (see my link, it mostly in gorge or over water). It will also cut off North West Bristol (mostly well-to-do residential, eg Clifton) from South Bristol (mostly less well-off and industrial), a social and commercial divide. I would not put it past the council to have included it just out of spite.

As far as I can see the diesel car ban dosent include the Portway.
The Hotwells/Cumberland basin area is fairly high on the polluted roads list that the council was using and theres no way of improving this area without introducing the ban further out. It's possible that it's include in the heavy vehicle ban area just so the council can agree to drop it later on anyway.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As far as I can see the diesel car ban dosent include the Portway.
The Hotwells/Cumberland basin area is fairly high on the polluted roads list that the council was using and theres no way of improving this area without introducing the ban further out. It's possible that it's include in the heavy vehicle ban area just so the council can agree to drop it later on anyway.

The Diesel Car Ban will include the section from Cumberland Basin to Bridge Valley Road. However, you will be doubtless be advised well in advance not to proceed past Sea Mills.

 

[carlberry]

The Diesel Car Ban will include the section from Cumberland Basin to Bridge Valley Road. However, you will be doubtless be advised well in advance not to proceed past Sea Mills.

That'll teach me for going from low res maps!
I still suspect that it'll be dropped from the ban before it's implemented because it forms the logical way round from south Bristol, North Somerset council would complain if all the old lorries and all diesel cars went via Portishead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What Bristol are doing is smarter in that it is looking to restrict private car use, not just having low emission vehicles.

It does it in a very blunt way. The Congestion Charge is a better way to do this than restricting arbitrarily by fuel type. Again, London has set the standard, others should simply set the area.

This has the potential to be very, very messy and hit poorer people badly, who for London might be better off buying a newer diesel car but for Bristol an ancient petrol one.

 

[Snow1964]

It is quite a tough standard, but I am guessing it is quite a blunt way of saying do not purchase a diesel vehicle for city centre use

Looks like it is saying due to pollution problem, either use petrol or electric if want to enter city, or park and ride, or don't enter during certain hours, but if you have to you will be charged extra

Aren't most of the new buses in Bristol on the priority corridors biogas, so diesel rules wont apply to them.

Might well get watered down before being implemented

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It does it in a very blunt way. The Congestion Charge is a better way to do this than restricting arbitrarily by fuel type. Again, London has set the standard, others should simply set the area.

This has the potential to be very, very messy and hit poorer people badly, who for London might be better off buying a newer diesel car but for Bristol an ancient petrol one.

Alternatively, an outright ban on diesel cars will better meet the emissions targets and a congestion charge is also weighted to those who can afford to pay. This essentially looks to stop diesels entering the city at certain times, rather than simply permitting those who can afford a newer, lower emission (but still harmful) diesel. And I say this as someone who has a modern diesel and will be, albeit on a limited basis, impacted by this.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is quite a tough standard, but I am guessing it is quite a blunt way of saying do not purchase a diesel vehicle for city centre use

Looks like it is saying due to pollution problem, either use petrol or electric if want to enter city, or park and ride, or don't enter during certain hours, but if you have to you will be charged extra

Aren't most of the new buses in Bristol on the priority corridors biogas, so diesel rules wont apply to them.

Might well get watered down before being implemented

Bristol is getting 77 biogas vehicles (to compliment some already in service with CT Plus) and will also have euro VI diesels (either modern or retrofitted) to meet these guidelines. You are absolutely right - it is a blunt way of saying diesel cars aren't an option if you want to drive into the city as that is where much of the problem lies.

 

[carlberry]

It does it in a very blunt way. The Congestion Charge is a better way to do this than restricting arbitrarily by fuel type. Again, London has set the standard, others should simply set the area.

This has the potential to be very, very messy and hit poorer people badly, who for London might be better off buying a newer diesel car but for Bristol an ancient petrol one.

The London congestion scheme also changes by fuel type, which is odd as an electric car causes 100% of the congestion of a diesel car. I'm sure most 'poor' people would be happier with a scheme that let them use a petrol vehicle they could afford as apposed to a diesel vehicle they couldn't afford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair points both, though I still disagree - but to me the key is still consistency - we need a national standard to inform car purchase going forward.

 

[carlberry]

Fair points both, though I still disagree - but to me the key is still consistency - we need a national standard to inform car purchase going forward.

The government has already announced that it was phasing out sales of both diesel and petrol cars (but not trains!) in the distant future so the long term message is clear.
What Bristol is doing may be unfair to current owners of diesel cars, however it is much fairer than most other current solutions and stands a good chance of actually reducing pollution; however Bristol isn't going to be the last place that does something. Hopefully the messages will become 'don't expect to drive in central areas' and not;' if you're rich enough to afford a new car then carry on driving, everybody else can stop'.

 

[Surreyman]

Somewhat ironic that Temple Meads stn and Philips Marsh Rail Diesel maintenance depot are inside the zone! No Euro 6 engines in class 150/158/165.

 

[Lucan]

The map is poor but whether the Portway is included or not (we are talking about the south end from Bridge Valley Road), you could not get through it to anywhere with a diesel car in any case. The route from North Bristol and J18 M5, through to either Bedminster (Bristol's southern inner suburb) or points south west, is clearly shown blocked at Cabot Way. This is the bridge/viaduct over the Cumberland Basin, which I have marked with an "X" on the attached extract from the map and it is within the grey area. I also show this stretch in the attached StreetView looking south; notice this is not a housing area, and is over a mile from what I would call the city centre.

I have pointed at "A" to the link from the Portway to Cabot Way which the map misleadingly shows as a thin line - in fact it is a dual carriageway flying junction. Also from the map, clearly you cannot access either the north or south side of the docks, the grey area going off to the right of this map.

The last few opportunities to turn off the Portway southbound before this blockade are residential streets north of the gorge, some miles off the top of this map, and lead into the suburban mazes of Sea Mills and Stoke Bishop.

Notice Ashton Gate on the map, the Bristol City ground, cut off from the north without massive detours, as is the rest of Bedminster. I live in Wales but buy furniture from Park's store in Bedminster, but I won't after this ban.

 

[83G/84D]

I believe I've read that the bus charge is only for more polluting buses, so anything Euro 5 (?) or 6 won't be charged.

So my Euro6b rated diesel car will be banned? Seems rather harsh, target the older more polluting cars, vans and lorries.

I am already paying as much road tax as said vehicles despite a more environmentally friendly engine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The government has already announced that it was phasing out sales of both diesel and petrol cars (but not trains!) in the distant future so the long term message is clear.

Indeed so, but realistically it will take a further 10-15 years for those to filter out of the used market.

What Bristol is doing may be unfair to current owners of diesel cars, however it is much fairer than most other current solutions and stands a good chance of actually reducing pollution; however Bristol isn't going to be the last place that does something. Hopefully the messages will become 'don't expect to drive in central areas' and not;' if you're rich enough to afford a new car then carry on driving, everybody else can stop'.

In that case ban all cars from the central area, building parking facilities outside of it and suitable electric bus P&R schemes. This anti-diesel measure, while they try to justify it, is basically just a piece of populism.

To me, London has it right. Make the LEZ and ULEZ levels as London has them and will develop them the two permissible levels, and just have Councils specify their areas and possibly fee levels. Not only that, but get them all onto one single payment system led by London too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So my Euro6b rated diesel car will be banned? Seems rather harsh, target the older more polluting cars, vans and lorries.

Exactly. Older petrols should be banned rather than new diesels. As I said, London has it spot on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So my Euro6b rated diesel car will be banned? Seems rather harsh, target the older more polluting cars, vans and lorries.

I am already paying as much road tax as said vehicles despite a more environmentally friendly engine.

They are looking at reducing NO/NO2 emissions. An older petrol car doesn’t produce half as much NO2 so it doesn’t matter how modern our diesels are.

What Bristol are trying to achieve is why this scheme is different.

 

[carlberry]

So my Euro6b rated diesel car will be banned? Seems rather harsh, target the older more polluting cars, vans and lorries.

I am already paying as much road tax as said vehicles despite a more environmentally friendly engine.

A Euro 6b isn't environmentally friendly, it's just slightly less polluting that older diesel engines but more polluting than most petrol engines.

 

[carlberry]

Exactly. Older petrols should be banned rather than new diesels. As I said, London has it spot on.

But new diesels pollute more than older petrol cars. London may be willing to ignore this however it dosent mean that everybody has to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But new diesels pollute more than older petrol cars. London may be willing to ignore this however it dosent mean that everybody has to.

But there are strong benefits of a national standard rather than a free-for-all.

 

[carlberry]

But there are strong benefits of a national standard rather than a free-for-all.

So make the Bristol standard the national one, problem solved.