Bristol Diesel Charge

[Scousemouse]

so if you live out in a rural area, bought a new diesel car on a five year pcp last year before the scheme was even mooted and you work shifts as described above your simple answer is to lost a LOT of money in a new car?

or tough?

 

[Bletchleyite]

so if you live out in a rural area, bought a new diesel car on a five year pcp last year before the scheme was even mooted and you work shifts as described above your simple answer is to lost a LOT of money in a new car?

or tough?

If you buy a new car you lose a lot of money in it regardless of when you sell it. If you don't want to lose money on a car, buy 3 years old used.

But yes, you will need to change your car or buy a second one. Peoples' lung health is more important than your individual convenience.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If you buy a new car you lose a lot of money in it regardless of when you sell it. If you don't want to lose money on a car, buy 3 years old used.

But yes, you will need to change your car or buy a second one. Peoples' lung health is more important than your individual convenience.

It's brutal but true. For years, we have as a nation failed to face into the realities of increasing vehicle use and pollution, save for a few exceptions like Red Ken and in Nottingham.

Also, we are talking about the impact on thousands of people, every day. How many shift workers with obscure work patterns live in a rural idyll and have a brand new car on a five year plan..... I imagine rather fewer.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Has it? Certain routes around Redland have been certainly been trimmed and the off peak headways have been widened but not certain that it's been massively cut back. The bus service is only atrocious in the peaks because of the terrible congestion, not helped by selected road works. The Temple Way scheme (adjacent to Temple Meads) was a running sore for two years.

In terms of cuts to buses serving Temple Meads, over the last few years we have had:

• The number 70 cut back to the city centre for most of the day, only serving Temple Meads in the late evenings.
• The number 9 has been hugely cut back to just be Mon-Fri daytime only with no early morning services, no evening services and no weekend services.
• The number 73 has had its frequency reduced.

In terms of service being atrocious, I was not at all talking about congestion. I was talking about the routes and timetables. For the main station in the city, it is very poorly served, especially if the council are trying to discourage people from driving to it.

Of course, congestion is an issue all throughout Bristol, but with the roadworks outside Temple Meads pretty much finished hopefully that will be better now (it has felt better travelling past there recently). I wonder if we will get a reinstatement of the services cut / curtailed early when the roadworks were used a reasoning for it? I doubt it! It also doesn't help that the MetroBus services that were supposed to be so amazing for Bristol don't actually serve either main station (Temple Meads or Parkway) but are being used an excuse to reduce frequencies for services that do (see the comment about the 73).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In terms of cuts to buses serving Temple Meads, over the last few years we have had:

• The number 70 cut back to the city centre for most of the day, only serving Temple Meads in the late evenings.
• The number 9 has been hugely cut back to just be Mon-Fri daytime only with no early morning services, no evening services and no weekend services.
• The number 73 has had its frequency reduced.

In terms of service being atrocious, I was not at all talking about congestion. I was talking about the routes and timetables. For the main station in the city, it is very poorly served, especially if the council are trying to discourage people from driving to it.

Of course, congestion is an issue all throughout Bristol, but with the roadworks outside Temple Meads pretty much finished hopefully that will be better now (it has felt better travelling past there recently). I wonder if we will get a reinstatement of the services cut / curtailed early when the roadworks were used a reasoning for it? I doubt it! It also doesn't help that the MetroBus services that were supposed to be so amazing for Bristol don't actually serve either main station (Temple Meads or Parkway) but are being used an excuse to reduce frequencies for services that do (see the comment about the 73).

The 73 has had its frequency reduced but then again, the m1 has been introduced which has taken a chunk of the trade. Not quite certain what you mean when you say about TM not being served by Metrobus. The m2 does serve TM. The m1 should serve BPW but we all know that there's been a planning/legal issue but that should be resolved.

The reason why the 70 has been cut back is simply because of the issues with the traffic getting through the city centre to TM and that's not just related to the Temple Circus roadworks. However, when you look at metrobus m1 and m3, you essentially get a choice whether to turn left (to Temple Way) or turn right (to Bond St and the city centre) and it's not surprise that the centre is the bigger transport objective. If you can get a decent route from the Centre to Temple Meads and avoid the congestion, then yeah, extend away!

The 9 has few people travelling on it during the day so lord knows how bad it was of an evening!!

However, you are definitely right to highlight the issues in Bristol and they do need to improve the bus service provision and reliability to enable restrictions to car use to be achieved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, you are definitely right to highlight the issues in Bristol and they do need to improve the bus service provision and reliability to enable restrictions to car use to be achieved.

This is made hard in Bristol by Temple Meads being a long way from the city centre where most bus routes serve. It's a lot easier in say Preston, Liverpool or whatever, because it's all in a nice compact city centre. Chester...well, don't get me started on the new location for the bus station, somewhere in a suburb. Whoever thought of that wants their head examining...mind you, the railway station isn't conveniently located either. So that's probably a second Bristol in that regard, so at least it isn't alone!

One thing that could help, rather than bus services, is a rebuild to metro standards of the Severn Beach/Avonmouth line, which is a sort of "circle line" which not only serves a fair chunk of the inner suburbs, but also has stations on most of the main bus routes. If that got a Merseyrail style service (or even light rail), and with German-style ticketing integration, it could well be an attractive option to connect from buses to Temple Meads.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is made hard in Bristol by Temple Meads being a long way from the city centre where most bus routes serve. It's a lot easier in say Preston, Liverpool or whatever, because it's all in a nice compact city centre. Chester...well, don't get me started on the new location for the bus station, somewhere in a suburb. Whoever thought of that wants their head examining...mind you, the railway station isn't conveniently located either. So that's probably a second Bristol in that regard, so at least it isn't alone!

One thing that could help, rather than bus services, is a rebuild to metro standards of the Severn Beach/Avonmouth line, which is a sort of "circle line" which not only serves a fair chunk of the inner suburbs, but also has stations on most of the main bus routes. If that got a Merseyrail style service (or even light rail), and with German-style ticketing integration, it could well be an attractive option to connect from buses to Temple Meads.

You're right - Temple Meads has always been on the periphery (as Brunel couldn't afford to route it into the centre of the city). That's actually something that has been pretty common in many cities; as you say, you can point at Chester, Newcastle, Leeds, amongst others in that regard!

The Severn Beach line is an interesting one. The stations in the more urban area (e.g. Clifton Down) would enable a metro style headway and would help connectivity. Avonmouth is reasonably located but the ones in Shirehampton and Sea Mills are not. Oddly, whilst bus ridership is increasing in the city, the Severn Beach line is experiencing a pronounced decline in ridership, down by about 10% in the last few years.

The issue in Bristol is that you have a city with a big river running through the middle of it. That invariably creates bottlenecks over the crossings. Also, the city centre is in a bowl into which you generally descend so the pollution accumulates. The road network is still based on age old routes, despite some efforts by the Luftwaffe and 1960s urban planners. Major changes in terms of rapid transit systems are some distance away (>20 years) but the need to meet targets is imminent. However, the current authorities and WECA can't even get bus lanes working correctly now. They need to get that sorted, improve bus service provision and reliability (a realistic alternative to many journeys) and so enable a reduction in car usage.

It's not about buses providing alternatives to every journey.... "what about the person who has to travel at Shirehampton Green to Lyde Green to start work at 0600?" but trying to stop the person, on their own in their 1.4 diesel Astra, driving from St Werberghs into the city centre every morning at 0830.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The 73 has had its frequency reduced but then again, the m1 has been introduced which has taken a chunk of the trade. Not quite certain what you mean when you say about TM not being served by Metrobus. The m2 does serve TM. The m1 should serve BPW but we all know that there's been a planning/legal issue but that should be resolved.

The reason why the 70 has been cut back is simply because of the issues with the traffic getting through the city centre to TM and that's not just related to the Temple Circus roadworks. However, when you look at metrobus m1 and m3, you essentially get a choice whether to turn left (to Temple Way) or turn right (to Bond St and the city centre) and it's not surprise that the centre is the bigger transport objective. If you can get a decent route from the Centre to Temple Meads and avoid the congestion, then yeah, extend away!

The 9 has few people travelling on it during the day so lord knows how bad it was of an evening!!

However, you are definitely right to highlight the issues in Bristol and they do need to improve the bus service provision and reliability to enable restrictions to car use to be achieved.

In terms of the M2, fair do's I had forgot about that one. It was specifically the M1 that got my goat, given it is being used as a reason to cut the 73 but doesn't actually serve either large station on the route. Sure the M1 is taking chunks of trade, but if we want a well rounded and tied together transport policy, cutting the services that do serve the stations just doesn't seem like the right thing to do!

This is made hard in Bristol by Temple Meads being a long way from the city centre where most bus routes serve. It's a lot easier in say Preston, Liverpool or whatever, because it's all in a nice compact city centre. Chester...well, don't get me started on the new location for the bus station, somewhere in a suburb. Whoever thought of that wants their head examining...mind you, the railway station isn't conveniently located either. So that's probably a second Bristol in that regard, so at least it isn't alone!

One thing that could help, rather than bus services, is a rebuild to metro standards of the Severn Beach/Avonmouth line, which is a sort of "circle line" which not only serves a fair chunk of the inner suburbs, but also has stations on most of the main bus routes. If that got a Merseyrail style service (or even light rail), and with German-style ticketing integration, it could well be an attractive option to connect from buses to Temple Meads.

I'm not exactly in agreement that the location of Temple Meads makes it hard. Sure, it makes it harder than if it was say next to the bus station, of course, but I still don't think it is hard.
The very fact the station is so well served by the 8 and has been well served by the 73 and 70 before cuts to frequencies and routes suggests it is possible, and that is even more shown by how well it is served by the A1 airport flyer (which sadly doesn't actually let you travel from Temple Meads to the Bus station as far as I am aware, despite being the most convenient option for that journey!).

In terms of the solution, I think it has to be both doesn't it? Even with light rail there are some bits of the city that just aren't suited to rail operation but could easily be served better than the current bus routes.

It's not about buses providing alternatives to every journey.... "what about the person who has to travel at Shirehampton Green to Lyde Green to start work at 0600?" but trying to stop the person, on their own in their 1.4 diesel Astra, driving from St Werberghs into the city centre every morning at 0830.

Not going to disagree with what you have said (I didn't realise about the Severn Beach line though, certainly it doesn't feel any quieter in the peak!), although it is interesting that you use St Werberghs as an example, as a suggestion I would have for that area is maybe to give better than the current half hourly bus service, at least in the peak! I don't think you can whinge about people using their cars without giving people a proper alternative - and in the peak that means a regular frequency of service.

 

[Scousemouse]

Personally, I think there should be exemptions for those working shifts where one half of the journey almost necessarily has to take place by car but the other half is in the time restriction. Its easy to say, buy a new car or don't buy a diesel but if that person is a high mileage driver, only a diesel makes financial sense and being forced into having to buy out negative equity on a finance agreement taken out before the plans were announced, does not seem equitable or fair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if that person is a high mileage driver, only a diesel makes financial sense

Not true, the new generation of 1l turbo petrols is also worth considering and is ideal for this situation.

 

[Scousemouse]

Gutless. Not a match on a 3l diesel

 

[edwin_m]

Gutless. Not a match on a 3l diesel

If this is a serious comment it says a lot about why a diesel ban is needed and requests for exemption should be treated skeptically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Gutless. Not a match on a 3l diesel

It's not about your right to drive a powerful car, it's about peoples' right to breathe.

I recognise your concern and have proposed a workable manner by which they may still attend work in a suitably economical and low pollution car.

If you want to drive a gas guzzler for reasons of enjoyment, do it away from a built-up area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It was specifically the M1 that got my goat, given it is being used as a reason to cut the 73 but doesn't actually serve either large station on the route. Sure the M1 is taking chunks of trade, but if we want a well rounded and tied together transport policy, cutting the services that do serve the stations just doesn't seem like the right thing to do!

Metrobus (and most likely the m1) is supposed to be serving BPW but it was a planning issue. I've long complained about BPW and bus service provision and facilities in that they could manage to spend a fortune on a new multi storey whilst bus passengers have a couple of manky shelters. That the route into BPW wasn't sorted is just another one of the errors in the metrobus execution by WECA/the local authorities and yet you have planks like the self serving Lib Dem guy who believes that franchising controlled by the self same bodies is some silver bullet

Taking what @Bletchleyite said, he is right especially in regard to the m1. You get to the bottom of the M32 and then it's a choice - TM or the main city centre and of course, that latter is the main traffic objective. You are right to mention those routes that do make their way to TM like the 8 and 73 among others. If there was a direct, reliable route (e.g. bus only) that went from the centre via the Grove and over the Bascule Bridge and could then get to TM easily, that would help. Of course, the Temple Way changes have been terrible for the last few years for service reliability so you can see why they have cut routes from grinding their way there. The A1 does, of course, go there but it's not a commercial service but paid for by the Airport so if it needs another 3 vehicles just to serve TM, that's ok. It was helped that it was an easy stopping off point on the old A1 route before heading through Bedminster.

Not going to disagree with what you have said (I didn't realise about the Severn Beach line though, certainly it doesn't feel any quieter in the peak!), although it is interesting that you use St Werberghs as an example, as a suggestion I would have for that area is maybe to give better than the current half hourly bus service, at least in the peak! I don't think you can whinge about people using their cars without giving people a proper alternative - and in the peak that means a regular frequency of service.

I did choose St Werberghs as it is one of those areas that has a secondary bus service though I could've said the 36 through Barton Hill and St Annes and it would've been equally valid.

It's not about your right to drive a powerful car, it's about peoples' right to breathe.

Quite so.

I'm also perhaps thinking that the shift worker, who lives in the country, has a modern car, and is based on the edge of the zone, is a very small segment of that Venn diagram

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm also perhaps thinking that the shift worker, who lives in the country, has a modern car, and is based on the edge of the zone, is a very small segment of that Venn diagram

It's more usual that shift workers in cities are the likes of cleaners who are typically low-paid, live in inner city locations and travel by bus anyway. The one possible exception is bar staff, but again it's not usual that, given that they are often younger and again lower paid, they would be driving large-engined premium cars - more likely a 1l Corsa or something.

 

[-Colly405-]

Metrobus (and most likely the m1) is supposed to be serving BPW but it was a planning issue. I've long complained about BPW and bus service provision and facilities in that they could manage to spend a fortune on a new multi storey whilst bus passengers have a couple of manky shelters. That the route into BPW wasn't sorted is just another one of the errors in the metrobus execution by WECA/the local authorities and yet you have planks like the self serving Lib Dem guy who believes that franchising controlled by the self same bodies is some silver bullet

I'm presuming that the current (16 week) move of BPW bus stops for "bus shelter improvement works" will include at least passive provision for eastern access, thus allowing Metrobus to get in (although I'm still not convinced this was ever going to be the M1 - I'm sure the original plan was to serve it from Emerson's...).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm presuming that the current (16 week) move of BPW bus stops for "bus shelter improvement works" will include at least passive provision for eastern access, thus allowing Metrobus to get in (although I'm still not convinced this was ever going to be the M1 - I'm sure the original plan was to serve it from Emerson's...).

The original plan was based on 5 metrobus routes. Whilst two were variations on an theme (and if they extend the m2 to Hengrove, it will satisfy that), the Emersons to Parkway service has long since died.

In all honesty, given that the old 18 Emersons to Southmead Hosp was culled and the struggles for the services around North Bristol, I can't see anything other than a minimal double run by the m1 being how BPW is served.

 

[carlberry]

The original plan was based on 5 metrobus routes. Whilst two were variations on an theme (and if they extend the m2 to Hengrove, it will satisfy that), the Emersons to Parkway service has long since died.

In all honesty, given that the old 18 Emersons to Southmead Hosp was culled and the struggles for the services around North Bristol, I can't see anything other than a minimal double run by the m1 being how BPW is served.

I'd assumed that Parkway would be tied up with whatever is going to serve Gipsy Patch Lane (i.e either a shuttle from somewhere on the m1 or some m1 journeys diverted through and on to Cribbs that way). A double run (even only of a few journeys) just makes it less attractive for most of it's passengers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd assumed that Parkway would be tied up with whatever is going to serve Gipsy Patch Lane (i.e either a shuttle from somewhere on the m1 or some m1 journeys diverted through and on to Cribbs that way). A double run (even only of a few journeys) just makes it less attractive for most of it's passengers.

That is probably the plan ultimately; the m1 running every 10 mins but via two different routes (via Sadly or via GPL and BPW) and then into UWE where they combine to provide a frequent service into town??

Gypsy Patch Lane won't be sorted soon. It is aimed at 2022 currently so can't see it BPW being unserved (and the current metrobus map shows BPW as a future route but not GPL).

 

[northken]

The m3 could easily be extended to Temple Meads; all the stops are in place as well. Unfortunately, it's not the most frequent of routes.