Bristol Metro Go Ahead Announced?

[chuckles1066]

This is true, although for its size Frome gets a modest level of service.

In fairness, you could substitute Frome with "most places outside of main cities and towns".

<gets on soapbox>

Patchway has a population of something like 17,000 (due to massive expansion here since the 2001 census) and, in the coming years, will increase to something approaching 30,000 courtesy of the Charlton Hayes development.

We'll still get 1 train an hour into Bristol.

Makes me laugh when the Government keep bleating on about getting motorists out of their cars and onto public transport......FFS then give the public a real alternative to their car, 1 train an hour (frequently shortformed) is NOT a real alternative.

<puts soapbox away>

 

[142094]

Is there an official definition of a "metro" service with regards to frequency?

There are various different definitions, but the the ones I hear most commonly are at least every 15 minutes, 12 minutes and 10 minutes. In many cases it is where passengers turn up and go, compared to relying on a timetable.

 

[mr williams]

Looking at the PDF proposal map, there's no link between Henbury and Avonmouth - I thought that was in the original list of suggestions?

Also, will these changes mean that the direct Bristol - Oxford service might be restored? IIRC wasn't it axed due to track capacity issues and in the process scuppered earlier plans to re-open Corsham as that was going to be its primary stopping service?

 

[Ivo]

About time too, especially for Portishead - and good that they've included stops at Ashton Vale and Pill.

I'm not sure what to make of the Keynsham etc stopping patterns. Both Keynsham and Oldfield Park, based on potential catchment, could comfortably support 2tph. On the other hand, Saltford could only support 2tph during the peaks (both for travel to Bristol and also as the local station to Bath Spa University). But would it really be fair to have the Wessex Main Line services, which is essentially an inter-city service, calling at these places? It would be better in my opinion to allow all non-shuttle services - including the Westbury/Weymouth services - to run non-stop between Bristol and Bath, and then to introduce a new half-hourly service between the two calling at all local stations in between, possibly including the previously suggested St Anne's between Keynsham and Bristol TM (not mentioned here)? This would also provide a fifth train between Bath and Bristol, which - subject to the ultimate lengths of IEP services via Bath - may prove invaluable.

Looking at the PDF proposal map, there's no link between Henbury and Avonmouth - I thought that was in the original list of suggestions?

It was. I think the idea was to have alternate Severn Beach Line services running to either Severn Beach itself or the loop, giving a 30 frequency on the bulk of the route. In truth, I'm not convinced the loop is necessary, but the 30 frequency to Avonmouth - assuming we actually get it - would be nice.

Also, will these changes mean that the direct Bristol - Oxford service might be restored? IIRC wasn't it axed due to track capacity issues and in the process scuppered earlier plans to re-open Corsham as that was going to be its primary stopping service?

Something like that. Maybe East-West - if extended to Bristol - might stop there? Or maybe (and this is ambitious) it could be built with three platforms, including a bay (the main platform there ) where the Bath shuttles could terminate? I doubt this would happen though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another thought - how useful would this be in the push for a Bristol/Avon ITA (which is needed)? I know we are getting closer, but...

 

[tbtc]

will these changes mean that the direct Bristol - Oxford service might be restored? IIRC wasn't it axed due to track capacity issues and in the process scuppered earlier plans to re-open Corsham as that was going to be its primary stopping service?

The doubling of the London - Bristol service (post GWML electrification etc) will mean any other service through Swindon will struggle for paths.

would it really be fair to have the Wessex Main Line services, which is essentially an inter-city service, calling at these places? It would be better in my opinion to allow all non-shuttle services - including the Westbury/Weymouth services - to run non-stop between Bristol and Bath, and then to introduce a new half-hourly service between the two calling at all local stations in between, possibly including the previously suggested St Anne's between Keynsham and Bristol TM (not mentioned here)? This would also provide a fifth train between Bath and Bristol, which - subject to the ultimate lengths of IEP services via Bath - may prove invaluable

I agree about a Bath - Bristol "shuttle" (post electrification, when stock is easier to obtain), allowing the longer services to be speeded up (or at least be slightly emptier!). However IEP will also mean a doubling of the overall London - Bristol service, so the Paddington trains through Bath should be a little quieter.

 

[cle]

Surely a Bath shuttle could run out to Weston SM or indeed Portishead, providing a through local service?

 

[Tiny Tim]

It doesn't really matter if it's called 'Metro' or anything else, it's a major improvement in infrastructure and services, and as such can be further improved upon once established.

Portishead has long deserved it's rail link back. Initially I would think that they'd be grateful for anything that replaces the nightmare car journey into Bristol. Trains have an ability to create their own market, uptake of the new services may be surprisingly high.

Now, how about the Bristol Harbour Railway?

 

[Schnellzug]

I'd prefer to see them extended to Taunton or Exeter, which would give Frome (population 24,000 - more than twice that of Westbury) a decent London service. Even if only one out of two was extended, that would still be a reasonable service. Another possibility would be to use Frome as an extended turnback siding, considering its relatively low occupation.

I'm not sure what to make of the Keynsham etc stopping patterns. Both Keynsham and Oldfield Park, based on potential catchment, could comfortably support 2tph. On the other hand, Saltford could only support 2tph during the peaks (both for travel to Bristol and also as the local station to Bath Spa University). But would it really be fair to have the Wessex Main Line services, which is essentially an inter-city service, calling at these places? It would be better in my opinion to allow all non-shuttle services - including the Westbury/Weymouth services - to run non-stop between Bristol and Bath, and then to introduce a new half-hourly service between the two calling at all local stations in between, possibly including the previously suggested St Anne's between Keynsham and Bristol TM (not mentioned here)? This would also provide a fifth train between Bath and Bristol, which - subject to the ultimate lengths of IEP services via Bath - may prove invaluable.

These are both ideas which I am thoroughly in agreement with. A Paddington-Taunton or Exeter semi-fast service, giving a regular service for From & Castle Cary, (and perhaps tying in with regular interval services on the Weymouth line, although that may not be as easy ) would be a very good idea, and there'd be plenty of stock available, wouldn't there, after Electricfiction. And indeed, Cardiff-Portsmouth really should be an Inter-City service, it certainly shouldn't have any more stops. And if not Inter-City, then Bristol-Weymouth really ought to be treated as a proper cross-country sevrcie, not just a rather lengthy branch.

 

[Class 33]

Well I'll believe it when I see it. Wouldn't be atall surprised if in the coming year or two the headline "Bristol Metro plans axed" as Bristol City Council can't providing the funding or whatever.

Could have done with Henbury station being open during the years I lived out there! A bit too late now for me. But I'd still like to see that line and that station open again, along with Horfield station.

Dissapointing there was no report about this on The West Country Tonight or BBC Points West.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure what to make of the Keynsham etc stopping patterns. Both Keynsham and Oldfield Park, based on potential catchment, could comfortably support 2tph. On the other hand, Saltford could only support 2tph during the peaks (both for travel to Bristol and also as the local station to Bath Spa University). But would it really be fair to have the Wessex Main Line services, which is essentially an inter-city service, calling at these places? It would be better in my opinion to allow all non-shuttle services - including the Westbury/Weymouth services - to run non-stop between Bristol and Bath, and then to introduce a new half-hourly service between the two calling at all local stations in between, possibly including the previously suggested St Anne's between Keynsham and Bristol TM (not mentioned here)? This would also provide a fifth train between Bath and Bristol, which - subject to the ultimate lengths of IEP services via Bath - may prove invaluable.

I agree the Cardiff-Portsmouth services should not call at Keynsham, Oldfield Park and Saltford too(if that re-opens). The journey times between Bristol and Portsmouth are slow enough allready. At least some services should run more limited stop i.e. Bath-Westbury or Bath-Salisbury non-stop to speed up journey times.

Bristol-Weymouth services. Are very slow and take an eternity stopping at pretty much every stop enroute. Some of the services at least should be limited stop. However if the services are kept as they are, then they may as well just all call at Keynsham, Oldfield Park, and Saltford as the journey times won't be much different if they omit those stops anyway.

Whilst I fully agree there should be new half hourly services between Bristol Temple Meads(or maybe from Portishead or Weston-Super-Mare) and Bath Spa calling all stops. The problem is how are these services going to be able to pathed along the Bristol-Bath bottleneck? It would be a bit of a challenge scheduling those slow services(journey time of about 23 minutes between Bristol & Bath!) amongst the existing services. Unless parts of this line are to be quadrupled?(which I don't think could be possible).

Also if the Keynsham and Oldfield Park stops are cut from Cardiff-Portsmouth, Bristol-Weymouths or whatever, then people living at those locations will probably complain that they don't have a direct train service to Westbury, Salisbury, Filton Abbey Wood, etc anymore, and have to fiddle about changing trains.

As someone else here said, maybe if a new operator does take over next year they will plan a complete revamp of the existing services. Which would be very interesting.

 

[chuckles1066]

As someone else here said, maybe if a new operator does take over next year they will plan a complete revamp of the existing services. Which would be very interesting.

And welcome.

As I said in another thread, it was an eye-opener to board a SWT unit if only to compare it to what rubbish FGW are using as rolling stock.

And that's just the units, it doesn't even look at the "services".

 

[Ivo]

The problem is how are these services going to be able to pathed along the Bristol-Bath bottleneck? It would be a bit of a challenge scheduling those slow services(journey time of about 23 minutes between Bristol & Bath!) amongst the existing services. Unless parts of this line are to be quadrupled?(which I don't think could be possible).

Also if the Keynsham and Oldfield Park stops are cut from Cardiff-Portsmouth, Bristol-Weymouths or whatever, then people living at those locations will probably complain that they don't have a direct train service to Westbury, Salisbury, Filton Abbey Wood, etc anymore, and have to fiddle about changing trains.

As someone else here said, maybe if a new operator does take over next year they will plan a complete revamp of the existing services. Which would be very interesting.

A fair criticism. Something like this would be my guess for the timetable (a wild guess but the times do work, albeit without FOC considerations):

Bristol TM . 00 05 20 30 35 50
St Anne's .. -- 10 -- -- 40 --
Keynsham ... -- 14 -- -- 44 --
Saltford ... -- 17 -- -- 47 --
O'field Park -- 22 -- -- 52 --
Bath Spa ... 11 25 31 41 55 01

As yes, this does require an overhaul of the current timetable.

People should accept that they can't have a direct service to everywhere. In the above example, there would be a <10 minute connection at BTH for Westbury (the 01 arrivals would obviously sit there for a minute or two, thereby fulfilling the +7 connection time), so it isn't a great loss especially considering the improved service that comes with this change. Unfortunately though, quadrupling the line is quite simply impossible.

 

[Drsatan]

Having looked on Google Maps I think it would be possible to quadruple the line from just beyond the A4 overbridge to Saltford tunnel, and from Saltford to Keynsham.

However, several compulsory purchase orders would be necessary since houses and commercial properties would need to be demolished to accommodate the additional running lines. I'm fairly certain that it would be a bit difficult adding an additional track adjacent to the Kennet and Avon canal.

If the whole route was to be quadrupled, then it would be necessary to bore two additional tunnels, which unless funding is immediately available would not be possible.

 

[Schnellzug]

And welcome.

As I said in another thread, it was an eye-opener to board a SWT unit if only to compare it to what rubbish FGW are using as rolling stock.

And that's just the units, it doesn't even look at the "services".

Your what seems to be well known grudge against FGW notwithstanding, do you still envisage that improvements can be confidently expected under any of the other candidates other than Stagecoach? e.g. National Excuse or Arriva?

 

[chuckles1066]

Your what seems to be well known grudge against FGW notwithstanding, do you still envisage that improvements can be confidently expected under any of the other candidates other than Stagecoach? e.g. National Excuse or Arriva?

Au contraire.

I don't have a grudge, real or perceived, against FGW.

They just happen to be the outfit charged with providing a "service" in this neck of the woods.

One train an hour, frequently shortformed, isn't a "service" by my definition and Hopwood's letters proclaiming otherwise won't change that.

My venture onto a SWT unit the other week just made me realise how poor the FGW stock is........but having said that, I'm sure one of my previous posts mentioned that the 7.39a.m service from Patchway was a Cross Country unit(?) and that one was a grown up train as well.

Thankfully, I can use my car to get to work these days, the rail network can go to hell in a handcart and I won't miss a moment's sleep.......but I'd have thought the views of someone who was using the rail network for the first time as a commuter (as I was in November 2010) might have been illuminating to the pen-pushers.

The fact that I cause some angst to the cannon-fodder here is merely a bonus.

HINT: watch their hackles rise if you mention fare-dodging at the conveniently located MOD Abbeywood, sorry Filton Abbeywood.

 

[Schnellzug]

Au contraire.

I don't have a grudge, real or perceived, against FGW.

They just happen to be the outfit charged with providing a "service" in this neck of the woods.

One train an hour, frequently shortformed, isn't a "service" by my definition and Hopwood's letters proclaiming otherwise won't change that.

My venture onto a SWT unit the other week just made me realise how poor the FGW stock is........but having said that, I'm sure one of my previous posts mentioned that the 7.39a.m service from Patchway was a Cross Country unit(?) and that one was a grown up train as well.

Thankfully, I can use my car to get to work these days, the rail network can go to hell in a handcart and I won't miss a moment's sleep.......but I'd have thought the views of someone who was using the rail network for the first time as a commuter (as I was in November 2010) might have been illuminating to the pen-pushers.

The fact that I cause some angst to the cannon-fodder here is merely a bonus.

HINT: watch their hackles rise if you mention fare-dodging at the conveniently located MOD Abbeywood, sorry Filton Abbeywood.

So it's basically the usual thing, that one's local service is always good for a good whinge whenever one wants one. You don't really think that National Excuse or Arriva would be able to provide 6-car trains at all times and their performance (which is largely down to factors out of any operator's hands) would suddenly dramatically improve, do you? Allocation of the finite pool of rolling stock is down to those who control such things.

I think referring to Voyagers as a Grown up train would raise a few wry smiles, incidentally.

 

[fgwrich]

Looks like we'll have to wait and see what Mondays HLOS announcement brings, but theres one thing that looks certain to go ahead in the bristol area:

From the GW Franchise spec:

The Government is also considering the following
enhancements that if required are expected to be confirmed in the HLOS:
Four-tracking and electrification of Filton Bank which will be delivered alongside
renewal of Bristol East.
Electrification between Southcote Junction and Basingstoke station.

So, Filton banks looking likely to get the go ahead anyway, how much of the rest of the Bristol Metro plan will also get the go ahead on Monday then?

 

[swt_passenger]

Have you access to the agreed franchise spec then? That section wasn't in the online consultation version.

 

[fgwrich]

No - It's from a post over on WNXX which i presume is from the franchise spec.

 

[Schnellzug]

Looks like we'll have to wait and see what Mondays HLOS announcement brings, but theres one thing that looks certain to go ahead in the bristol area:

From the GW Franchise spec:


So, Filton banks looking likely to get the go ahead anyway, how much of the rest of the Bristol Metro plan will also get the go ahead on Monday then?

Another error of BR days being rectified, then, I'm pleased to see.

 

[cle]

Looking positive for Bristol.

Glad that some of the not London investment isn't going to the usual core Northern cities - people forget the South and South West.

 

[Mojo]

Looking positive for Bristol.

Glad that some of the not London investment isn't going to the usual core Northern cities - people forget the South and South West.

Agreed. The South West has been neglected for too long in comparison to other parts of the country.

Since the last election the local MPs have really been pushing for improvements. Justine Greening was taken on the Severn Beach Line by Charlotte Leslie a few weeks ago. Last year there was a debate in the House of Commons on rail services in Greater Bristol.

As someone who has been working on campaigning and advising those with regards to the Metrorail programme, it really is a great opportunity. Local Authorities in Enterprise Zones will be able to keep their business rates and borrow to fund infrastructure improvements. The City Deal could provide £1 Billion. http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/1bil...ristol-Metro/story-16481396-detail/story.html

Regarding the Henbury Loop (or is it a spur?); the reasons for this fall due to a number of silly mistakes by the ill-informed consultants Halcrow.

Henbury to Bristol via Avonmouth for example is slower than the current more frequent bus service.

No, a loop service would mean that a traveller from Henbury would go to BTM, round Filton chord and down Filton Bank, the quicker route than a bus, and not via Avonmouth. They seem to have forgotten that loops can go both ways.

Example:

Second is the operational impact of a circle line service. It has the problem of having to reverse across two very busy station throats at the west of Bristol Parkway........

…...There does not have to be the reversing at the throat of Parkway because most trains on that loop won't go via Parkway, it's a loop, round the chord line.

….and the east of Bristol Temple Meads

….....A spur service would probably have to do that anyway, like the current Severn Beach Service, in fact with a loop it would be the same trains.

A loop service would, for example, also enable passengers accessing rail at Abbey Wood ( remember the bus interchange idea ), or changing there from other rail services, to get to employment opportunities at Severnside, or even Clifton. The same could be said for passengers from Henbury and the other possible new stations, on the loop.

Likewise passengers from Shirehampton, Avonmouth etc could access employment opportunities around Aztec West, or the MoD or retail at Abbey Wood, (or UWE, using buses from that mythical Abbey Wood interchange.)

(in bold is comments from the consultants)

Shirehampton Park and Ride supposedly to be open by end of the year. Tata steel quoted £500k and Network Rail agreed. Down from nearly £3 Million which Network Rail originally quoted 3/4 years ago.

 

[fgwrich]

Have you access to the agreed franchise spec then? That section wasn't in the online consultation version.

Apparently its in the latest GW Franchise ITT published 10 days ago.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apparently its in the latest GW Franchise ITT published 10 days ago.

Thanks for getting back on it - that's presumably how the poster over in wnxx got it, from inside FGW. (Now I've seen who it was...)

I did read a couple of years ago that finalised ITTs (and SLC etc) would go on the DfT website as soon as they were confirmed. I wonder if that will ever happen... :roll:

 

[Ivo]

Looks like we'll have to wait and see what Mondays HLOS announcement brings, but theres one thing that looks certain to go ahead in the bristol area:

From the GW Franchise spec:

Four-tracking and electrification of Filton Bank which will be delivered alongside
renewal of Bristol East.

So, Filton banks looking likely to get the go ahead anyway, how much of the rest of the Bristol Metro plan will also get the go ahead on Monday then?

Agreed. The South West has been neglected for too long in comparison to other parts of the country.

Since the last election the local MPs have really been pushing for improvements. Justine Greening was taken on the Severn Beach Line by Charlotte Leslie a few weeks ago. Last year there was a debate in the House of Commons on rail services in Greater Bristol.

Shirehampton Park and Ride supposedly to be open by end of the year. Tata steel quoted £500k and Network Rail agreed. Down from nearly £3 Million which Network Rail originally quoted 3/4 years ago.

Even if only one thing comes out of this (e.g. the new Portway station), anything is positive. Maybe Bristol will finally join the other seven Core Cities in having a genuinely decent rail network (either light or heavy)? This, combined with the greater push for a PTE/ITA (as shown by Bristol/WoE joining the PTE Association a few months ago) must count as progress.

 

[chuckles1066]

So it's basically the usual thing, that one's local service is always good for a good whinge whenever one wants one.

I'm not sure how else anybody is expected to form a judgement on any aspect of something?

You can only form an opinion based on personal experience......there are people who swear by Amazon, for example and yet others who refer to them as "Scamazon" and won't do business with them if they were the last trader on God's Earth.

You don't really think that National Excuse or Arriva would be able to provide 6-car trains at all times

I don't recall asking for a six car unit. Just a modest three car one will do......it really is as simple as that.

As I've repeatedly stated here, I was perfectly content to put up with late trains and not being able to sit down on my designated journey......it's the standing around on platforms at 7a.m in temperatures of -7C and then finding I had to wait another hour because the one train I needed to catch was shortformed.

Is the rail network in such a state that such fundamental sentiments are an alien concept?

I don't believe it is, I think it's down to ******p00r maintenance.

 

[Requeststop]

Looking positive for Bristol.

Glad that some of the not London investment isn't going to the usual core Northern cities - people forget the South and South West.

I couldn't agree more. I get depressed when we get lumped together with London and the South East in this Norf/Sarf argument. Small investments on the Falmouth and St.Ives Branches have reaped tremendous returns. I am hopeful that Brissle gets it's chance too! Lets get the line east of Temple Meads re-quadrupled again, and establish a loop from St. Andrews Road, via Henbury to Filton, and if possible from Severn Beach round to Pilning. Portishead must be re-established, and some form of shuttle from Weston/Portishead to Bath. Make all Brissle TM services to London go via Parkway, and establish Bath as the terminus for the other services to Paddington. This would mean that Brissle TM services would be faster, and passengers from Bath/Chippenham would have more comfort. (well I can dream, don't we all?

 

[Mojo]

Make all Brissle TM services to London go via Parkway, and establish Bath as the terminus for the other services to Paddington. This would mean that Brissle TM services would be faster, and passengers from Bath/Chippenham would have more comfort. (well I can dream, don't we all?

With electrification the plan is for 4tph from Temple Meads to Paddington, with 2tph taking the current route via Bath, and 2tph going via Parkway. So this is already on the cards.

 

[Schnellzug]

I don't recall asking for a six car unit. Just a modest three car one will do......it really is as simple as that.

As I've repeatedly stated here, I was perfectly content to put up with late trains and not being able to sit down on my designated journey......it's the standing around on platforms at 7a.m in temperatures of -7C and then finding I had to wait another hour because the one train I needed to catch was shortformed.

How far were you commuting to that you had to have a Seat?

 

[chuckles1066]

How far were you commuting to that you had to have a Seat?

Bristol - Bath, no need for a seat, I'll happily stand.

Just give me a train I can get on.

It's that simple.....really.

 

[cle]

I wonder what all this means for future Bristol - Oxford/E-W possibilities.

A service to Bedford and beyond (Nottingham maybe?) from Bristol and Bath (terribly connected) would open them up to a lot of the wider South and South Midlands. Not just Oxford, but MK too.

Lots of trains planned for in between Swindon and Didcot though - but hopefully it could slot in just behind one running fast from Bristol Parkway? Swindon might need another line or platform, or a rejig for passing.