Bristol Temple Meads incident 12/11/2017

[ValleyLines142]

Morning,

I'm writing on behalf of a family member who went out for the day yesterday.

My cousin and her step-sister went to Bristol yesterday. My cousin started her journey at Cardiff Central whilst her step-sister started from Porth and met my cousin on the platform at Cardiff.

My cousin had a valid ticket but her step-sister needed to purchase a ticket. I'm not sure if Porth has a ticket machine (I believe it does) but either way she intended on purchasing a return from Porth to Bristol on the train. The conductor did not come round so they went to the unpaid fares booth at Bristol Temple Meads. At no point whatsoever did she intend on avoiding paying her fare.

When they got the booth a female member of staff told her she would have to pay a £20 fine, which I assume is a Penalty Fare. She had no issue with that as she knew she should have purchased her ticket at an earlier opportunity (although if Porth does not have a ticket machine she may have a leg to stand on as by this point this would have genuinely been her next chance to purchase a ticket), and she paid it there and then.

The female conductor then called over an inspector (presumably an RPI), who was a short distance across the way. He was in the middle of serving a young female who, according to my cousin's account, couldn't have been more than seventeen or eighteen years old, and was reduced to tears as he was shouting in her face and accusing her of lying about her origin. I have no idea of the outcome of that.

When he spoke to my cousin and her step-sister, he produced his ID/badge, and said 'just take a moment to absorb all of this in, just so you know who I am', in a condescending manner. He then asked my cousin where she had travelled from, so she said Cardiff. He then said she was lying, even though she had a ticket which she produced to him. He then asked for her postcode, which she revealed. This was then followed by where she lives in Cardiff. She then said Canton. The RPI continued to say she was lying, saying that Canton isn't a real place (clearly can't be that good at his job as I grew up in Canton and it has a population of just under 15,000). He then said he'd have to check the CCTV at Cardiff, and claimed that they'd have to wait here for 'a couple of hours' whilst he checked the footage. My cousin then demanded they be released, as they'd already been held up for twenty minutes and didn't want to be delayed any more on their day out. Eventually after much bullying and interrogation they were allowed to leave.

As they were let through the barriers, my cousin said to her step-sister something non-harmful like 'oh gosh there's always drama everywhere we go', to which the inspector followed them through the barriers, outside of the station, chased them past the bus stops almost to by Temple Gate, and accused them of talking about him, when they weren't at all; it was just a light-hearted comment between the two of them. The inspector then goes 'you do realise I'm filming you love' to which my cousin says 'carry on, I'm not worried or scared, you're just a sexist, intimidating old man who enjoys terrorising other women. You've let all the 6ft 2 men walk through, because you know they'd deck you if you picked on them'. The RPI then threatened to have her sacked from her job (like this will happen), to which she did call him an arse but she knew that the RPI was trying to get a reaction out of her to have it against him so she kept her cool.

I'm not at all happy that one of GWR's staff has followed two young ladies out of the station in this day and age. The Penalty Fare was sorted; as soon as that was paid off that should have been it. Eventually when he did let them off, he shouted 'bye ladies, have a fantastic day!', in an over the top, patronising tone.

My cousin has a heart problem and if put under too much stress she gets bad chest pains. If she can provide a doctor's note of this can she take further action? To think he could be at Temple Meads right now intimidating other people. He needs instant dismissal.

Good job I wasn't there. Who employs these absolute nutters?!

 

[yorkie]

My cousin had a valid ticket but her step-sister needed to purchase a ticket. I'm not sure if Porth has a ticket machine (I believe it does) but either way she intended on purchasing a return from Porth to Bristol on the train. The conductor did not come round so they went to the unpaid fares booth at Bristol Temple Meads. At no point whatsoever did she intend on avoiding paying her fare.

If Porth did have a working ticket machine (if you are unsure, you may want to try to find out, if possible) and it accepted her chosen payment method, then unfortunately she can be considered guilty of a Byelaw offence by choosing not to use it, unless there was some notice authorising on-train purchases.

... was reduced to tears as he was shouting in her face and accusing her of lying about her origin...

Some of them can be very aggressive. Unfortunately there is not a lot we can do about it; there is no organisation that properly protects passengers interests, and I am aware of numerous instances of inappropriate behaviour by inspectors but nothing much is done to stop it. I suggest you write to your MP about that. You could try reporting it to GWR, but if they're anything like Northern they'll just ignore your complaint.

When he spoke to my cousin and her step-sister, he produced his ID/badge, and said 'just take a moment to absorb all of this in, just so you know who I am', in a condescending manner. He then asked my cousin where she had travelled from, so she said Cardiff....

Big mistake. If she had said Porth she may have simply been sold the correct fare.

I would say she is lucky to be charged £20, when she could have been in a lot more trouble. GWR would be within their rights to prosecute her (or settle for an out of court settlement for potentially a 3-figure sum) for stating a false origin.

The behaviour is a quite separate matter and the staff should not be behaving like that.

As they were let through the barriers, my cousin said to her step-sister something non-harmful like 'oh gosh there's always drama everywhere we go', to which the inspector followed them through the barriers, outside of the station, chased them past the bus stops almost to by Temple Gate, and accused them of talking about him, when they weren't at all; it was just a light-hearted comment between the two of them. The inspector then goes 'you do realise I'm filming you love' to which my cousin says 'carry on, I'm not worried or scared, you're just a sexist, intimidating old man who enjoys terrorising other women. You've let all the 6ft 2 men walk through, because you know they'd deck you if you picked on them'. The RPI then threatened to have her sacked from her job (like this will happen), to which she did call him an arse but she knew that the RPI was trying to get a reaction out of her to have it against him so she kept her cool.

You could report this both to GWR and the police.

My cousin has a heart problem and if put under too much stress she gets bad chest pains. If she can provide a doctor's note of this can she take further action? To think he could be at Temple Meads right now intimidating other people. He needs instant dismissal.

Good job I wasn't there. Who employs these absolute nutters?!

Several train companies employ, or have contracts with companies who employ, poorly behaved staff whose behaviour can be concerning, see Carlisle Security and Northern Rail: major concerns

Even VTEC had a manager shouting at a customer on the phone (the customer was the recipient of the phone call) a few weeks ago about how they do not operate a train between Newcastle and Sunderland, that the only company operating that route is Grand Central, and how the customer - who was in the right - was "wrong".

I can't really see an end to this sort of behaviour unfortunately. I think some of them see customers behaving badly and decide to behave likewise.

I have to deal with challenging behaviour in one of the jobs I do, but if I behaved in the manner described above, I would be sacked. It's a very different industry though.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of Porth station, it does indeed have a ticket machine that I believe is card only. It also has a ticket office that has limited opening hours.

Regardless of Porth station, there would also have been the chance to buy at Cardiff Central whilst changing trains. I believe on Sundays the connection time for this is quite large (I often travel from the valleys to Bristol on a Sunday and quite often have connection times of 40+ minutes), more than enough time to buy a ticket from the excess fares desk at Cardiff Central. During weekday and Saturday services this connection time can be a lot less (between 7 and 10 minutes from memory), so would be pushing it a bit more, but still certainly doable if the excess fares desk at Cardiff Central is quiet.

I also want to add I travel to Bristol Temple Meads and end up needed a ticket at the excess fares desk quite often, I have never had a problem there. Although I have noticed that recently they have started to become stricter (specifically targeting people travelling from Bath Spa without a ticket for example).

Big mistake. If she had said Porth she may have simply been sold the correct fare.

Maybe I read the post wrong, but it looked to me as if the GWR employee was asking about the cousin who did indeed travel from Cardiff.

 

[cuccir]

Maybe I read the post wrong, but it looked to me as if the GWR employee was asking about the cousin who did indeed travel from Cardiff.

Yes, this was my understanding too.

The cousin's step-sister was the one who travelled from Porth. For future reference, if she's able to pay by card and/or if the ticket office is open, she should always buy a ticket beforehand. Arriva Trains Wales have a lot of problems with people not purchasing tickets, and are relatively quick to move to prosecution.

As they were let through the barriers, my cousin said to her step-sister something non-harmful like 'oh gosh there's always drama everywhere we go', to which the inspector followed them through the barriers, outside of the station, chased them past the bus stops almost to by Temple Gate, and accused them of talking about him, when they weren't at all; it was just a light-hearted comment between the two of them. The inspector then goes 'you do realise I'm filming you love' to which my cousin says 'carry on, I'm not worried or scared, you're just a sexist, intimidating old man who enjoys terrorising other women. You've let all the 6ft 2 men walk through, because you know they'd deck you if you picked on them'. The RPI then threatened to have her sacked from her job (like this will happen), to which she did call him an arse but she knew that the RPI was trying to get a reaction out of her to have it against him so she kept her cool.

There's no context in which this is acceptable; we only get one side of the story but even if your cousin had been the rudest, pushiest, idiot encountered all day, there's nothing right about following someone away from the station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Porth has two TVM's one Wordline the other S&B. The Booking Office is closed on Sundays.

The connection times for direct trains at Cardiff Central are indeed very lengthy on Sundays. Nearly an hour from the 1034 from Porth for instance.

This side of it is a clear case where several opportunities to purchase have been passed up.

The other side of the coin is the alleged behavior of staff at Bristol TM and from what Dan's Cousin has said it would appear that the RPI was equipped with body cam and may ave a recording of it.......

 

[221129]

All I will say is there is a lot about this account that does not make sense. As always 2 sides to every story and from the account above I would suggest someone somewhere has not been very truthful.

 

[Martin66]

I don't think either of them were trying to short fare.

"My cousin had a valid ticket but her step-sister needed to purchase a ticket." "He then asked my cousin where she had travelled from, so she said Cardiff. He then said she was lying, even though she had a ticket which she produced to him."

 

[Sprinter153]

These accounts, particularly when not recounted first hand, are usually full of embellishment and hyperbole when it comes to accounts of what staff have said and done. Of course you wouldn't have anything positive to say about a member of revenue staff dealing with you, would you?

It's classic Disputes and Prosecutions bingo:
'The RPI was nasty to me' - Check
Supposedly mitigating health problem - Check
Far-fetched sounding allegations - Check

I too would suggest there are two sides to this story.

 

[Haywain]

And if anyone is going to complain, it should be someone who was actually there.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's classic Disputes and Prosecutions bingo:
'The RPI was nasty to me' - Check
Supposedly mitigating health problem - Check
Far-fetched sounding allegations - Check

I too would suggest there are two sides to this story.

My thoughts exactly.

If it's hard enough to give advice from a one-sided first hand account then it's impossible to to give advice from a second-hand account. The allegations against the RPI sound embellished - that's my first reaction.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If an RPI really did "lose it" at BRI on Sunday screaming and shouting at passengers, reducing them to tears pursuing them having verbal exchanges etc then it's all on cctv.

If your cousin is really adamant it happened Dan then she needs to make a formal complaint to GWR asking them to review the cctv footage.

 

[Starmill]

These accounts, particularly when not recounted first hand, are usually full of embellishment and hyperbole when it comes to accounts of what staff have said and done. Of course you wouldn't have anything positive to say about a member of revenue staff dealing with you, would you?

It's classic Disputes and Prosecutions bingo:
'The RPI was nasty to me' - Check
Supposedly mitigating health problem - Check
Far-fetched sounding allegations - Check

I too would suggest there are two sides to this story.

I would suggest that none of this is your place to say. If you dislike what someone posts on the forum, it is probably better to ignore it than to go around accusing people of lying - especially in this provocative manner. This is of no benefit whatsoever to you or the OP.

I won't comment on what happened beyond saying that the best thing to do would be to set down the most factual, procedural account possible of events in clear, simple language in a letter to GWR. As Haywain points out that would need to come from someone who was present and who actually witnessed events, although DanTrainMan and possibly others could provide assistance with writing and proofreading of course. There is no harm in requesting them to review the CCTV although I would not pin too much hope on that course of action.

 

[cuccir]

Normally I'd agree with the 'two sides' element. If I offer advice on here,it's usually to drop the whole 'this mean RPI was nasty to me' thing. I agree that in many of these cases, the story is likely to be much more mixed.

In this instance though, the following out of the station is wrong, whatever the women's behaviour. It also would seem pointless to make up this part of the story. Even if the rest is embellished, this is poor.

 

[philthetube]

Ir the op was chased out of the station this is one case where CCTV would be useful and she should complain to both police and Arriva and ensure the CCTV is kept, no the other hand if that was not the case then needs to shut up. I am not making any judgement on truth of the account and I don't think I have ever suggested using cctv before as it usually proves nothing.

 

[MG11]

Ir the op was chased out of the station this is one case where CCTV would be useful and she should complain to both police and Arriva and ensure the CCTV is kept.

Revenue Protection Officers have the power to detain anyone they suspect to be evading their fare.

 

[ValleyLines142]

If Porth did have a working ticket machine (if you are unsure, you may want to try to find out, if possible) and it accepted her chosen payment method, then unfortunately she can be considered guilty of a Byelaw offence by choosing not to use it, unless there was some notice authorising on-train purchases.

Some of them can be very aggressive. Unfortunately there is not a lot we can do about it; there is no organisation that properly protects passengers interests, and I am aware of numerous instances of inappropriate behaviour by inspectors but nothing much is done to stop it. I suggest you write to your MP about that. You could try reporting it to GWR, but if they're anything like Northern they'll just ignore your complaint.

Big mistake. If she had said Porth she may have simply been sold the correct fare.

I would say she is lucky to be charged £20, when she could have been in a lot more trouble. GWR would be within their rights to prosecute her (or settle for an out of court settlement for potentially a 3-figure sum) for stating a false origin.

The behaviour is a quite separate matter and the staff should not be behaving like that.

You could report this both to GWR and the police.


Several train companies employ, or have contracts with companies who employ, poorly behaved staff whose behaviour can be concerning, see Carlisle Security and Northern Rail: major concerns

Even VTEC had a manager shouting at a customer on the phone (the customer was the recipient of the phone call) a few weeks ago about how they do not operate a train between Newcastle and Sunderland, that the only company operating that route is Grand Central, and how the customer - who was in the right - was "wrong".

I can't really see an end to this sort of behaviour unfortunately. I think some of them see customers behaving badly and decide to behave likewise.

I have to deal with challenging behaviour in one of the jobs I do, but if I behaved in the manner described above, I would be sacked. It's a very different industry though.

Thank you for your quick reply. Regardless of whether she said she had come from Porth or Cardiff it seems as if she'd have still had to pay the £20. She paid that off there and then as she knew she was in the wrong.

Maybe I read the post wrong, but it looked to me as if the GWR employee was asking about the cousin who did indeed travel from Cardiff.

Correct.

All I will say is there is a lot about this account that does not make sense. As always 2 sides to every story and from the account above I would suggest someone somewhere has not been very truthful.

And what gives you that impression?

These accounts, particularly when not recounted first hand, are usually full of embellishment and hyperbole when it comes to accounts of what staff have said and done. Of course you wouldn't have anything positive to say about a member of revenue staff dealing with you, would you?

It's classic Disputes and Prosecutions bingo:
'The RPI was nasty to me' - Check
Supposedly mitigating health problem - Check
Far-fetched sounding allegations - Check

I too would suggest there are two sides to this story.

There aren't. My cousin and her step-sister are two honest, law-abiding people who just wanted a nice day out. The latter actually works in the medical profession (don't quote me on what exactly her job entails however).

And if anyone is going to complain, it should be someone who was actually there.

Oh they will. However I just wanted to get a second opinion on what to do.

I would suggest that none of this is your place to say. If you dislike what someone posts on the forum, it is probably better to ignore it than to go around accusing people of lying - especially in this provocative manner. This is of no benefit whatsoever to you or the OP.

I won't comment on what happened beyond saying that the best thing to do would be to set down the most factual, procedural account possible of events in clear, simple language in a letter to GWR. As Haywain points out that would need to come from someone who was present and who actually witnessed events, although DanTrainMan and possibly others could provide assistance with writing and proofreading of course. There is no harm in requesting them to review the CCTV although I would not pin too much hope on that course of action.

Agreed. I will try and obtain CCTV footage.

 

[Darandio]

Looking at the bigger picture and in particular why people are challenging you, it's because there are always two sides of the story, only one side is present here. You are here providing a second hand account with very serious allegations. We have a member of staff here who has been called a sexist nutter, and from this second hand account you are calling for instant dismissal. Do you really expect fellow staff not to get defensive, even though they see similar (often wildly untrue) claims regularly?

It's not for me to say who is telling the truth here, there are several stories every week in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum and in nearly all in which an offence has been committed, the staff are apparently angry and abusive. I've seen it myself where people who have committed an offence go on the defensive and the staff have been perfectly reasonable, when they have left the passengers in question have gone on to talk about getting the member of staff sacked and remarks of how rude they were, they weren't at all. You can then only imagine what stories they come up with when they get home, the threat of prosection nearly always produces a 'get off at all costs' mentality.

There are a minority of bad staff out there, of that there isn't doubt, Yorkie could probably write a book. But are all of these accounts of abusive staff true? I doubt it. You can see why many staff take a cynical view.

 

[najaB]

If this is an accurate account of what occurred then it is very disturbing indeed. Based on that, I think the ladies concerned should raise a formal complaint about their treatment and specifically request that GWR review the body-cam footage, since the RPI said that he was recording the interaction and, unlike station CCTV, it should have recorded audio.

 

[ValleyLines142]

As i'd expect you would, I wouldn't expect you to do anything other than side with your family, that isn't a bad thing.

Looking at the bigger picture and in particular why people are challenging you, it's because there are always two sides of the story, only one side is present here. You are here providing a second hand account with very serious allegations. We have a member of staff here who has been called a sexist nutter, and from this second hand account you are calling for instant dismissal. Do you really expect fellow staff not to get defensive, even though they see similar (often wildly untrue) claims regularly?

It's not for me to say who is telling the truth here, there are several stories every week in the Disputes & Prosecutions forum and in nearly all in which an offence has been committed, the staff are apparently angry and abusive. I've seen it myself where people who have committed an offence go on the defensive and the staff have been perfectly reasonable, when they have left the passengers in question have gone on to talk about getting the member of staff sacked and remarks of how rude they were, they weren't at all. You can then only imagine what stories they come up with when they get home, the threat of prosection nearly always produces a 'get off at all costs' mentality.

There are a minority of bad staff out there, of that there isn't doubt, Yorkie could probably write a book. But are all of these accounts of abusive staff true? I doubt it. You can see why many staff take a cynical view.

When I said I'd go with my cousin I meant that not in a huffy puffy kind of way, just as a general we will both go to the station together and ask to obtain CCTV footage, if we are permitted to do so.

I have no issue with staff getting defensive; that isn't really what is relevant here. What I do have an issue with, however, is this 'history' that I apparently have, which bears no relation to this topic whatsoever.

 

[AlterEgo]

If this is an accurate account of what occurred then it is very disturbing indeed. Based on that, I think the ladies concerned should raise a formal complaint about their treatment and specifically request that GWR review the body-cam footage, since the RPI said that he was recording the interaction and, unlike station CCTV, it should have recorded audio.

They may also be entitled to a copy of the body cam footage themselves by paying a £10 Subject Access fee. I wonder if anyone can confirm?

 

[ValleyLines142]

I've just spoken to GWR on Twitter, who have told me that they are unable to release CCTV footage, even though I offered to go to the station and have someone show it to me.

Hopefully my cousin's step-sister's complaint has been submitted.

 

[221129]

I've just spoken to GWR on Twitter, who have told me that they are unable to release CCTV footage, even though I offered to go to the station and have someone show it to me.

Hopefully my cousin's step-sister's complaint has been submitted.

Good as that would be a major breach of Data Protection legislation. If your cousin (not you) wants access to the footage they would have to put in a Subject access request (£10 fee) in writing to GWR.

 

[RPI]

A lot about this doesn't add up, Cardiff isn't a Penalty fare station, the nearest being filton/Bristol Parkway, I personally know every RPI at Bristol and do not believe any of them would act in this way and if they did they all wear body worn CCTV cameras that record video AND sound so it would be easy to prove or disprove, many prosecutions have be brought using these cameras.

 

[221129]

A lot about this doesn't add up, Cardiff isn't a Penalty fare station, the nearest being filton/Bristol Parkway, I personally know every RPI at Bristol and do not believe any of them would act in this way and if they did they all wear body worn CCTV cameras that record video AND sound so it would be easy to prove or disprove, many prosecutions have be brought using these cameras.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[bb21]

There is no call for accusing anyone seeking advice of lying. If there were holes in the story, please explain your doubts. Challenge the story, not attack the person seeking help. Anyone who offers an incorrect account will end up with incorrect advice, which they will find out at the end themselves to a nasty surprise.

Can I just remind everyone that this is a place for people who wish to seek and offer help. If you wish to help, do. If you don't, refrain from unhelpful personal remarks. If anyone has a personal problem with a fellow forum member, keep it off the forum. If you wish to have an argument with a fellow forum member about another subject, keep it within the relevant thread.

Everyone is entitled to help. You are also free to decide whether you would like to contribute towards helping them.

Dan, I cannot offer you anything else that has not been said already. I don't think there is much point of this thread being left open any longer. Taking your account at face value, this would warrant a very strong complaint to GWR. I am sure they will be able to look into it using necessary resources they have and take appropriate actions.