Britain’s relationship with the EU post Brexit.

[Cowley]

Probably worried that the others would confuse him with one of the fish.

I think he looks more like a frog though?

 

[najaB]

Probably worried that the others would confuse him with one of the fish.

Though trout are a fresh water species, he deserves be slapped with one.

 

[Struner]

There’s the sea trout of course!

 

[DerekC]

It's worth reading Boris de Pfeffel's speech from yesterday - and once you cut through the huffle-puffery we find that he has gone back on what he agreed in the "oven-ready deal". He now doesn't accept the need for a "level playing field". He says that of course his government will always have much tougher regulations on everything than the EU, but they just have to trust us because we can't accept any legal constraints. And of course it was briefed in advance from 10 Downing Street that the dastardly EU were trying to move the goalposts.

Does he seriously expect people to believe all this? is it just negotiating tactics?

 

[DaleCooper]

Though trout are a fresh water species, he deserves be slapped with one.

Judging by his face he already has been.

 

[Doppelganger]

He says that of course his government will always have much tougher regulations on everything than the EU, but they just have to trust us because we can't accept any legal constraints.

Then why didn't they do this whilst in the EU?

The EU standards are often just the minimum, so there was nothing stopping the UK, or anyone else, from imposing higher standards domestically.

Actually, hang on, it's because they don't want to and it will now be a race to the bottom with Joe Public paying for it.

I actually have no idea what sort of relationship the UK wants with the EU or any other country and a lot more people should be asking exactly what is meant to happen next. At this stage beyond 2020 there isn't really much of a plan and I think people are kidding themselves if they think that either a deal with the EU will be reached, or that trading on WTO terms is a good idea.

 

[najaB]

At this stage beyond 2020 there isn't really much of a plan and I think people are kidding themselves if they think that either a deal with the EU will be reached, or that trading on WTO terms is a good idea.

I'm sure I can't be the only person here currently working on an exit plan...

 

[Struner]

I'm sure I can't be the only person here currently working on an exit plan...

So you’re an active independence supporter then?

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure I can't be the only person here currently working on an exit plan...

I've got dual nationality, but it's frustrating that I will probably need to pay for two passports to travel with the least inconvenience. I was quite happy with just the one, given they each served the same purpose.

 

[najaB]

So you’re an active independence supporter then?

Reluctant, describes it more accurately. But I was more taking about making plans (not yet serious or detailed) for life after quitting these shores.

 

[Doppelganger]

Reluctant, describes it more accurately. But I was more taking about making plans (not yet serious or detailed) for life after quitting these shores.

If you do it before the end of the transition period, you will still be treated as an EU Citizen in the EU country you move to. What happens next however is anyone's guess...

 

[Doppelganger]

I'm no advocate of RyanAir, but I suspect this might not be the first time something like this happens:

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...on-manchester-airport-brexit-eu-a9316596.html

RYANAIR ADVERTISES JOBS FOR THOSE WITH ‘RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN EU’

Being “hardworking, flexible [with] an outgoing and friendly personality” is all very well, but British citizens would soon not qualify to work as cabin crew with Ryanair under the conditions of a new job advert. They appear to fall at the first hurdle because of Brexit.

Europe’s biggest budget airline has a recruitment day in Manchester on 22 February 2020.

Ryanair is seeking applicants who are “adaptable and happy to work a shift roster”. They must “enjoy dealing with the public and have the ability to provide excellent customer service with a ‘can do’ attitude”.

But British citizens would be unlikely to be able to meet the first requirement for anyone seeking a “highly competitive salary” and “amazing staff travel benefits” once the Brexit transition period ends in 11 months’ time.

The first demand is: “Applicants must have the unrestricted right to live and work in the EU.”

The airline explains: “You must be flexible to relocate as you could operate from any European base within Ryanair Holdings PLC subject to operational requirements.”

However, Ryanair insists British passport holders will continue to be eligible to work for the company whatever restrictions Brexit may place on their rights to work within the EU.

A spokesperson for the airline told The Independent: “Currently, we require all cabin crew applicants to have the unrestricted right to live and work in the EU. However, we will revise and update this requirement before the Brexit transition period ends on 31st December 2020.”

Ryanair has dozens of bases across the European Union, and often assigns crew to work from airports in different countries.

British passport holders can travel and work anywhere in the EU until the end of 2020. But after that they will lose the right as freedom of movement ends.

Non-UK citizens with the right to remain will be able to fulfil the requirement beyond the end of the year.

 

[433N]

I'm no advocate of RyanAir, but I suspect this might not be the first time something like this happens:

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...on-manchester-airport-brexit-eu-a9316596.html

I think if they don't change their stance, they could be sailing close to the wind in terms of discrimination on the grounds of citizenship.

I see the hand of O'Leary in this and it is holding a spoon.

 

[najaB]

I think if they don't change their stance, they could be sailing close to the wind in terms of discrimination on the grounds of citizenship.

Not really. It's no different to a solely UK-based employer requiring the applicant to prove their right to work in the UK.

 

[Doppelganger]

I see the hand of O'Leary in this and it is holding a spoon.

Is it a wooden spoon, as the Brexit prize being awarded to the UK?

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think if they don't change their stance, they could be sailing close to the wind in terms of discrimination on the grounds of citizenship.

It's pretty much standard in the EU for jobs to be advertised as being only for EU citizens.

 

[dosxuk]

I think if they don't change their stance, they could be sailing close to the wind in terms of discrimination on the grounds of citizenship.

That's always been sold as one of the key benefits of brexit though - being able to restrict who comes here to work.

Please don't tell me you were under the impression that while we were going to stop EU citizens from working in the UK, there would be nothing to stop UK citizens working in the EU?

 

[433N]

Alright, alright, calm down, calm down.

To clarify my point, if these jobs are based in the UK, it is difficult to see that Ryanair would be able to de facto specify that they are not open to UK citizens. After all, Ryanair could then argue that they can't get the required 'talent' and recruit from oversees, which I think this government would take a dim view of.

I'm trying to think of a precedent but it would be such a bizarre situation that I can't.

Clearly if the rights and benefits of being an EU citizen are required for the position then this discriminates against UK citizens and if that doesn't fall foul of current legislation, I'm sure that legislation would be hastily drawn up to make sure it does.

Alternatively, Ryanair might choose to pull out of UK operations ... how sad would that be ?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Distinct lack of leavers commenting on this thread, the answer to the original question should be quite simple, after all, we were told by them it'd be the easiest deal in history etc.
Or is it just that they have no idea beyond we got out?



Don't you remember, that was how the UK post Brexit was sold to us? you've just got to have faith and believe

I have found that most Brexit threads on Internet forums usually become an echo chamber for remainers. Whilst I will bat for the leave side, arguing against five or six people is just exhausting.

 

[Doppelganger]

I have found that most Brexit threads on Internet forums usually become an echo chamber for remainers. Whilst I will bat for the leave side, arguing against five or six people is just exhausting.

I think a lot of people are waiting to hear about the benefits of Brexit.

Can you name any tangible benefits that a post EU world will bring to the UK?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think a lot of people are waiting to hear about the benefits of Brexit.

Can you name any tangible benefits that a post EU world will bring to the UK?

Leavers didn’t vote leave for tangible benefits, they voted leave out of gut instinct of identity. Similarly to Scottish Independence which, ironically, I see no remainers haranguing Scots for “tangible benefits” of independence despite the fact the possibility of Scottish separation after Brexit is used as a line of attack against Brexiteers.

To answer your question however, I am most interested by the ability to hand out state aid to firms (hopefully) and being free from EU procurement rules to favour domestic suppliers and build up British industry.

 

[Bantamzen]

Alright, alright, calm down, calm down.

To clarify my point, if these jobs are based in the UK, it is difficult to see that Ryanair would be able to de facto specify that they are not open to UK citizens. After all, Ryanair could then argue that they can't get the required 'talent' and recruit from oversees, which I think this government would take a dim view of.

I'm trying to think of a precedent but it would be such a bizarre situation that I can't.

Clearly if the rights and benefits of being an EU citizen are required for the position then this discriminates against UK citizens and if that doesn't fall foul of current legislation, I'm sure that legislation would be hastily drawn up to make sure it does.

Alternatively, Ryanair might choose to pull out of UK operations ... how sad would that be ?

The requirement is that candidates be prepared to have their base moved from Manchester to any given Ryanair base across Europe. That means that candidates must ensure they ensure they apply for relevant work visas in any other the countries that they may potentially work in. No different than applying for a job with say Emirates. There is no need for legislation, just a lot more paperwork & expense for those candidates from the UK & other countries outside of the EU. Of course this could have been different....

Of course Ryanair could pull out of the UK altogether, and all those passengers willing to put up with the basic (but strangely effective) business model for cheaper flights will have to dig a lot deeper in future. Because after all, isn't this what leavers touted as being a benefit, more expensive things...? No....? Hmmmm…….

I have found that most Brexit threads on Internet forums usually become an echo chamber for remainers. Whilst I will bat for the leave side, arguing against five or six people is just exhausting.

Its almost as if the majority of people in the country didn't vote to leave isn't it? However now that you leavers have "won", its time to shut up moaning about remainers and start showing us all these wonderful benefits were are supposed to be getting.

I think a lot of people are waiting to hear about the benefits of Brexit.

Can you name any tangible benefits that a post EU world will bring to the UK?

Answers on a postcode to:

Boris Johnson PM
10 Downing Street
London

He's going to need all the help he can get to spin out of this one....

Leavers didn’t vote leave for tangible benefits, they voted leave out of gut instinct of identity. Similarly to Scottish Independence which, ironically, I see no remainers haranguing Scots for “tangible benefits” of independence despite the fact the possibility of Scottish separation after Brexit is used as a line of attack against Brexiteers.

Well credit to you, at least this is a bit more honest than most leavers. However, arguing that a "gut feeling" is better than tangible benefits just about sums up the absurdness of Brexit.

As for Scotland, well that's for the Scots to decide. In reality most people in England wouldn't feel any effect whether Scotland stayed in the UK or left, leaving the EU was another matter. However in another absurd twist, Brexit seems to have stoked more desire in Scotland for independence & has moved the almost inevitable breakup of the UK one step closer. Genius.

​

To answer your question however, I am most interested by the ability to hand out state aid to firms (hopefully) and being free from EU procurement rules to favour domestic suppliers and build up British industry.

I'm sure most businesses will also be interested how the government might pay for such aid, when so many other priorities exist. I assume Team Leave had some firm proposals on this you'd like to share?

 

[433N]

To answer your question however, I am most interested by the ability to hand out state aid to firms (hopefully) and being free from EU procurement rules to favour domestic suppliers and build up British industry.

EU rules on state-aid exist to ensure that it is a level playing field and that industry in one country isn't state-subsidised compared to another country so prices aren't artificially undercut. Isn't this going to be pertinent to any other trade deal that the UK might wish to strike ?

In fact, you will find that the World Bank has much to say on this when assessing conditions of loans.

 

[Aictos]

EU rules on state-aid exist to ensure that it is a level playing field and that industry in one country isn't state-subsidised compared to another country so prices aren't artificially undercut. Isn't this going to be pertinent to any other trade deal that the UK might wish to strike ?

In fact, you will find that the World Bank has much to say on this when assessing conditions of loans.

Indeed in this article by the Daily Express which the PM stated any concerns regarding trading should be on the UK side not the EU side and in regards to state aid he said and I quote:

"The Prime Minister added Britain has only enforced state aid four times in the past 21 years while France had it 29 time, Italy 5 and Germany 67"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...st-france-germany-italy-state-aid-brexit-news

Now that isn't a level playing ground to me.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed in this article by the Daily Express which the PM stated any concerns regarding trading should be on the UK side not the EU side and in regards to state aid he said and I quote:

"The Prime Minister added Britain has only enforced state aid four times in the past 21 years while France had it 29 time, Italy 5 and Germany 67"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...st-france-germany-italy-state-aid-brexit-news

Now that isn't a level playing ground to me.

Perhaps you need to re-read what you quoted, "Britain has only enforced state aid four times"? So, who made those decisions? The UK government. Who could have made more? The UK government. Another example of blaming the EU for domestic decision making.

 

[433N]

Indeed in this article by the Daily Express which the PM stated any concerns regarding trading should be on the UK side not the EU side and in regards to state aid he said and I quote:

"The Prime Minister added Britain has only enforced state aid four times in the past 21 years while France had it 29 time, Italy 5 and Germany 67"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...st-france-germany-italy-state-aid-brexit-news

Now that isn't a level playing ground to me.

Those figures can be read in two ways :

Either

1. We are desperately eager to provide state aid but can't

Or

2. We don't want to give state aid and don't believe anyone else should either

They also debunk the 'fact' that no state aid is allowed by the EU which is disadvantaging us and impinging on our sovereign choices.

Of course, the Tory / right wing obsession with free markets means that (2) above is the most reasonable interpretation of those figures ... I'm sure that the current government will pretend that (1) is ... (and user Sad Sprinter is going to be sorely disappointed).

Ironically, recent Conservative governments have worshiped the economic ideas of an Austrian immigrant.

 

[najaB]

To clarify my point, if these jobs are based in the UK, it is difficult to see that Ryanair would be able to de facto specify that they are not open to UK citizens

They are open to UK citizens who have the right to work in the EU.

 

[najaB]

To answer your question however, I am most interested by the ability to hand out state aid to firms (hopefully) and being free from EU procurement rules to favour domestic suppliers and build up British industry.

So you like the idea of your taxes being spent to prop up uncompetitive industries. Nice.

 

[Doppelganger]

To answer your question however, I am most interested by the ability to hand out state aid to firms (hopefully) and being free from EU procurement rules to favour domestic suppliers and build up British industry.

So Northern Rail didn't just get nationalised?

 

[433N]

They are open to UK citizens who have the right to work in the EU.

So we could have jobs that are only open to UK citizens who have a Y chromosome and it isn't discriminatory ? (you may notice that this is also an 'accident' of birth)