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Britain’s Worst Connected Big Cities By Rail.

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Envoy

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The Independent has today published a list of Britain’s worst connected cities by rail - with Leicester & Cardiff at the bottom of the list.
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...ster-birmingham-rail-best-worst-a9061091.html
The 12 cities and their scores
1. Birmingham (18)

2. Manchester (15)

3. = Edinburgh (12)

3. = Newcastle (12)

5. Sheffield (11)

6. = Bristol (10.5)

6. = Leeds (10.5)

8. Nottingham (9.5)

9. = Liverpool (8.5)

9. = Glasgow (8.5)

11. Cardiff (6.5)

12. Leicester (6.5)

The only true Inter City style service that Cardiff (& Swansea/Newport) have with any other city is to London. The direct services to Southampton & Portsmouth are now served by commuter style class 165/166’s. Services to Gloucester, Birmingham, Derby & Nottingham are served by 2 or 3* coach class 170’s and those to Manchester via the direct Marches route are served by 2 or 3* coach 175’s. * if you are lucky.

Surely, the south Wales conurbation should have direct Inter City Trains to Newcastle via Birmingham and to Edinburgh via Hereford and Crewe?
 
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deltic

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The list of cities is fairly arbitrary - Bradford is possibly the worst connected major city in the UK
 

DarloRich

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The list of cities is fairly arbitrary - Bradford is possibly the worst connected major city in the UK

but does anyone want to go to Bradford? In any event i disagree. Sunderland has a worse service than Bradford. I bet the real answer is Wells or St Davids.
 

RLBH

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I bet the real answer is Wells or St Davids.
You can argue that some cities have been missed, certainly - but it's a bit of a stretch to argue that St Davids is a major city! In fact, if you went down the strictly technical route, the City of Westminster would belong as well, and its' massive number of direct trains to the City of London would swamp the fact that you can't get to any other cities on the London Underground.
The list of cities is fairly arbitrary - Bradford is possibly the worst connected major city in the UK
I suspect that the assessment has been done on the basis of urban or metropolitan areas (different things, but very similar rankings), in which case 'Leeds' is actually 'West Yorkshire', and 'Birmingham' is actually 'West Midlands'. This largely makes sense, because the technical definition of a city can bear only a passing resemblance to what people think of as a city. If counting Bradford separately, then Wakefield and Coventry should also make the list, and listing all three of those as 'major cities' is stretching the point a bit.

The more obvious omission, using urban area/metropolitan area rankings, is the South Hampshire built-up area - which would probably be treated as Southampton, although Portsmouth is the larger city. This approach fares poorly with polycentric urban areas. Other places with grounds to complain are Brighton and the Bournemouth-Poole conurbation.

Actually, I think that missing London off of the list was a major mistake. We all know it would come top - but how much by would illustrate the London-centricity of the rail system. Although the ranking is inherently London-centric in how it's calculated, so that would have to be done a little differently.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The Independent has today published a list of Britain’s worst connected cities by rail - with Leicester & Cardiff at the bottom of the list.

The only true Inter City style service that Cardiff (& Swansea/Newport) have with any other city is to London. The direct services to Southampton & Portsmouth are now served by commuter style class 165/166’s. Services to Gloucester, Birmingham, Derby & Nottingham are served by 2 or 3* coach class 170’s and those to Manchester via the direct Marches route are served by 2 or 3* coach 175’s. * if you are lucky.

Surely, the south Wales conurbation should have direct Inter City Trains to Newcastle via Birmingham and to Edinburgh via Hereford and Crewe?

This is one of the arguements the Welsh Government has been using to try and ensure the devolution of Air Passenger Duty, much against the wishes of the Welsh Secretary who seems to regard bigging up Bristol as his main job.

South Wales' connectivity problems are well known and the Welsh Government has proposed two different solutions of which the second is now the more likely.

1. During discussions with DfT about the new Welsh franchise the WG argued that it should include long distance services to English and Scottish cities. The DfT conceeded the point in the case of direct services from south Wales to Liverpool but rejected the other proposals.

2. Devolution of APD to enable air connections between Cardiff and cities where no direct rail connection is available. Alternatively, the Welsh Government requested that the UK seek European approval for air routes from Cardiff to Leeds-Bradford, Humberside, Newquay, Inverness and Norwich to be regarded as 'Public Service Obligation' routes that could receive state aid - as the current Cardiff-Anglesey service does. The request was turned down without explanation earlier this year.
 

Glenn1969

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State aid is illegal under EU rules so that kind of thing is more likely to be looked favourably on after Brexit
 

RLBH

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State aid is illegal under EU rules so that kind of thing is more likely to be looked favourably on after Brexit
That's not quite true - state aid is allowed in certain circumstances, otherwise things like subsidised public transport wouldn't be allowed. The UK, however, has an illustrious history of applying EU rules unnecessarily, not taking permitted exemptions, blaming the EU for rules we dreamt up all on our own, and so forth.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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State aid is illegal under EU rules so that kind of thing is more likely to be looked favourably on after Brexit

That's incorrect. The EU allows state aid for transport services where there is Public Service Obligation. In this case the EU would have rubber stamped the application had the UK Government agreed to it.

The roadblock was in Whitehall not Brussels and there's no reason to think that the UK Government would look any more favourably on the plan post Brexit.
 

Djgr

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The list of cities is fairly arbitrary - Bradford is possibly the worst connected major city in the UK

Well the 12 largest cities have been used and so the list isn't really arbitrary.

For me the most interesting point is the relative under-provision to Glasgow and Liverpool in comparison to Edinburgh and Manchester.
 

Roast Veg

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“The downgrading of the Midland main line curbed Leicester’s connectivity, with the closure of the Great Central further depleting the departure lists.”
This isn't really true is it? The only city on the list served by the GCML that was not served by the MML that I can identify is Manchester.

Leicester's prospects don't look good either - HS2 encircles it and threatens any chance of improved northbound links, even to Leeds. That pretty much leaves Cardiff and Bristol, both of which get the occasional service in times of disruption, but purely for operational convenience!
 

RLBH

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Well the 12 largest cities have been used and so the list isn't really arbitrary.
There is always going to be something arbitrary about such a list. Even if the cities are well defined (which they aren't), there's still no particular reason to have a cutoff at the largest 12 rather than the largest 10 or 15, or some other number.
For me the most interesting point is the relative under-provision to Glasgow and Liverpool in comparison to Edinburgh and Manchester.
Edinburgh is actually disproportionately well connected - it's one of the smaller cities listed, but manages to get the third best service, largely because it's on both the East Coast Main Line and the West Coast Main Line - so receives the services of four intercity TOCs, and all their destinations.
 

marks87

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The report seems inconsistent - it starts by saying the scoring was applied to each city's main rail station, but then says Edinburgh scored highly because of the direct connection to the tram (+1 point) to the airport (+1 point) from Haymarket.

The criteria do also seem a bit arbitrary. Why not also include number of (unique) destinations overall, not just London and each other?
 

geoffk

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That's not quite true - state aid is allowed in certain circumstances, otherwise things like subsidised public transport wouldn't be allowed. The UK, however, has an illustrious history of applying EU rules unnecessarily, not taking permitted exemptions, blaming the EU for rules we dreamt up all on our own, and so forth.
Exactly, and that's one of the reasons why Euroscepticism took hold. That and the need to avoid the effects of the anti-tax avoidance directive.
 

Camden

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Combining distance from other population centres and functional metropolitan area size would need to be thrown into the mix to create a true comparative picture.

Without a doubt, some places have been locked out of connectivity benefits that by rights they should have access to.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This isn't really true is it? The only city on the list served by the GCML that was not served by the MML that I can identify is Manchester.

Manchester (and Liverpool) were served by the MML via Matlock, and on a shorter route than the GC.
Leicester-Manchester (via Chesterfield) was resurrected for a short while during the WCML upgrade, but then discontinued.

If the analysis was by "population centres" rather than "cities", the big towns of Lancashire would figure in poor connectivity tables (Blackburn, Bolton, Rochdale, Oldham), plus similar large towns over the hill (Halifax, Huddersfield).
 

Roast Veg

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Manchester (and Liverpool) were served by the MML via Matlock, and on a shorter route than the GC.
Leicester-Manchester (via Chesterfield) was resurrected for a short while during the WCML upgrade, but then discontinued.
You are correct, meaning there are no places the GCR brought about that improved connectivity to these cities.
 

BC

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You can argue that some cities have been missed, certainly - but it's a bit of a stretch to argue that St Davids is a major city! In fact, if you went down the strictly technical route, the City of Westminster would belong as well, and its' massive number of direct trains to the City of London would swamp the fact that you can't get to any other cities on the London Underground..

I think M'bone, Paddington and Victoria are within the boundary of Westminster....
 

cle

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There is always going to be something arbitrary about such a list. Even if the cities are well defined (which they aren't), there's still no particular reason to have a cutoff at the largest 12 rather than the largest 10 or 15, or some other number.

Edinburgh is actually disproportionately well connected - it's one of the smaller cities listed, but manages to get the third best service, largely because it's on both the East Coast Main Line and the West Coast Main Line - so receives the services of four intercity TOCs, and all their destinations.
And this is why population is only one factor in these debates. And people dwell on it too hard here.

Edinburgh is the biggest tourism draw outside of London (domestic and intl) - and has arguably the best economy outside of London too. Alongside Manchester (hence those two out-perform Liverpool and Glasgow here, those two cities having strong intra-links but poorer relations to other cities, and flat economies).

These factors generate more demand than just having 'people' - whereas large but pretty stagnant places like Bradford do not need what Edinburgh needs.
 

Andyh82

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They covered this at length on BBC Breakfast this morning, they were live from Liverpool and kept saying how Liverpool is one the worst connected places in the UK.

In reality they are 8th in a list of just 12 places.

They have London Trains, are on the TPE route so have links across the north, and locally have Merseyrail, so it’s hardly as bad as they were portraying.
 

thenorthern

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I would agree that Bradford is the worst, Leicester is good for getting to London and Birmingham but not anywhere else of any distance.
 

BC

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I would agree that Bradford is the worst, Leicester is good for getting to London and Birmingham but not anywhere else of any distance.
Bradfords problem - well one of them is that the stations are termini which makes the advantages of through trains nonexistant. It can seem quicker to get a bus to Leeds and then go from there it feels.
 

Sprinter150

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Greengauge 21 created this diagram as part of their 'Beyond HS2' report

Green denotes at least 1tph to the other cities
Blue 1tp2h
Red no direct connectivity

The cities included are as follows:
- Birmingham (10 green and 1 blue)
- Bristol (9 green, 1 blue and 1 red)
- Cardiff (5 green, 6 red)
- Edinburgh (8 green, 1 blue, 2 red)
- Glasgow (2 green, 7 blue, 2 red)
- Leeds (9 green, 1 blue, 1 red)
- Liverpool (7 green, 4 red)
- London (11 green)
- Manchester (9 green, 2 blue)
- Newcastle (9 green, 1 blue, 1 red)
- Nottingham combined with Derby (10 green, 1 blue - although of course both don't have direct connectivity in their own right to other centres)
- Sheffield (9 green, 1 blue, 1 red)
 

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61653 HTAFC

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Bradfords problem - well one of them is that the stations are termini which makes the advantages of through trains nonexistant. It can seem quicker to get a bus to Leeds and then go from there it feels.
If you're in Bradford to start with, it doesn't matter that trains have to reverse at Interchange. That's more of a problem for Halifax than Bradford.
 

Mogz

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I was surprised Liverpool wasn’t higher up the list.

Only a few decades ago, Liverpool had services to Scotland, North and South Wales, the South Coast and the South West. There was even a sleeper to London. All gone now. And now the Norwich service is threatened too.
 

yorkie

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Greengauge 21 created this diagram as part of their 'Beyond HS2' report
Interesting!

Though I'd argue that if you include Nottingham/Derby as one (presumably because a lot of people live in an area in which both city centres are accessible from, and the two towns are very well connected by trains and buses) then there is no reason why some other towns & cities can't be too, e.g. Bradford & Leeds; then of course Bradford suddenly looks very well connected! ;) (It's trivial to get from Bradford to Leeds; many people living in the outskirts of Bradford would find it just as easy - or difficult - to get to Leeds station as many people living in the outskirts of Leeds).
 
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