Britain announces "pasty tax" U-turn

[Oswyntail]

It seems like the government policy has been to try to raise more tax with many relatively small changes rather than one big one, on the premise that adding VAT on optional items, such as pasties, would be more palatable to most than, say, raising income tax by 2%. After all, if putting VAT on a pasty makes a whopping hole in your finances, then you probably get it back from the NHS anyway. This does leave them open to multiple attacks, though, which is all the Opposition seem able to do, rather than suggest coherent alternatives.
Personally, i would rather have a government that were flexible enough to make changes in tactics within the chosen strategy (like this), rather than a completely inflexible monolith.

 

[Seacook]

I've sometimes had hot food at work - last night's dinner leftovers reheated, or a tin of soup from the supermarket (24p)!

How did you heat it? I have worked in offices where microwaves were made available, but such places are not universal.

In any case, with regards to eating out I couldn't answer that question as it depends on what your other expenses are and whether you're saving up for something and thus living on a budget. It's also nice to treat yourself sometimes; if you reward yourself with a luxury item of hot food from the local cafeteria every day, then what do you do on a day you actually deserve a treat?

Everyone lives on a budget. For some people, it is effectively unlimited; for most it is limited; for others it is extremely limited.

Fast food does not qualify as a luxury item and certainly not a treat in my book.

If you cannot know the extent of other people's income and expenses, then it is difficult to see how you can define the cost of a burger or a pasty as a luxury rather than everyday cost.

In my last job, there was a cafeteria on the premises but I took sandwiches and fruit for my lunch: not because I'm tight-fisted, but simply because the food on offer was less than appetising. I also made my own cups of tea, again because the cafeteria or machine varieties were unpalatable. For a treat, one of my group would buy some (expensive) cheese and we would share it. Now that was a luxury. Also, an error on the occasion we tried Stinking Bishop.

 

[Mojo]

If you cannot know the extent of other people's income and expenses, then it is difficult to see how you can define the cost of a burger or a pasty as a luxury rather than everyday cost.

Because it is possible to make a sandwich at home for less than the cost of a takeaway pasty. Eating is essential, but there are plenty of foods which one can get which cost less than an expensive takeaway. My objections are aimed at those who complain about a tax on an item they do not have to purchase, an item which many who are not well-off in society are unable to afford, and those who complain about how hard-up they are but make no effort to save money when it comes to buying everyday items such as food and drink.
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How did you heat it? I have worked in offices where microwaves were made available, but such places are not universal.

If you don't have a microwave to heat food, then don't eat hot food at lunch time.

 

[Yew]

Surely these ''hoi polloi'' cannot be that hard up if they can afford to eat out? The Daily Mirror website tells me the average pasty costs a whopping £1.49 with no VAT, is this correct?

I wouldnt really call a pasty 'eating out' its more the equivalent of a sandwich from tesco or something.

 

[Seacook]

Because it is possible to make a sandwich at home for less than the cost of a takeaway pasty. Eating is essential, but there are plenty of foods which one can get which cost less than an expensive takeaway.

It is possible to travel by bicycle or on foot for less than the cost of a car. Most people opt for the car because the costs are outweighed by the benefits. Going for the cheapest option is not always the wisest course. Let people make the choices that suit themselves best and do not expect them to be the same as yours.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm not a fan of Cameron or the modern Tory Party, however it seems to me like the man can do no right. With regard to the Leeds station incident, if he's been all over the country, has as much personal interest in railways as any other non-enthusiasts, and is a very busy man, can't he be forgiven for the error? I mean, he could well have done, but maybe it just wasn't Leeds, or maybe it was another chain, why do we assume he was lying? We seem to expect MPs to be immaculate and 100% correct all the time, yet when they do slip up or get something so trivial wrong, we pounce on them like they've made a catastrophic error. The same with Gordon brown, when he wrote that letter to the woman whose son had been killed on duty in Iraq, and he spelt her name wrong or similar, and he got torn a new one over it - he's only human, why can't people realise mistakes happen?

 

[Ivo]

I for one won't complain about this change - if only to stop being hampered by activists every time I enter a bakery!

Anyway, the tax idea was rather shortsighted, I have to agree - but it was an at least relatively sensible thing to do. Would people have complained to a similar degree had Labour attempted it?

I doubt it.

I'm not a fan of Cameron or the modern Tory Party

You're not a fan of any "major" Party (more like second-rate ) though...

 

[Seacook]

If you don't have a microwave to heat food, then don't eat hot food at lunch time.

Or, alternatively, if you don't have a microwave to heat food and you are too short of money or are too miserly to pay the market price, then don't eat hot food at lunch time.

 

[SS4]

Anyway, the tax idea was rather shortsighted, I have to agree - but it was an at least relatively sensible thing to do. Would people have complained to a similar degree had Labour attempted it?

I doubt it.

I reckon they would have done. Brown could do no right in the eyes of the press, especially when circumstances beyond his control intervened. Blair may have got away with it but really the Iraq war destroyed the credibility of New "Labour"

also sausage rolls are delicious although greggs' ones are too greasy for me

edit: not for nothing were the press referring to labour as the tax party since their ideas largely revolved around charging more tax.

I'm certainly glad the tax has been repealed, many people are feeling the pinch these days and it will be reflected in food. Where before they may have got a meal deal for £3/4 they're now getting a pasty for £1.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Thank god they have seen sense.
Did they really expect greggs to check the temperature of each pasty as it is sold and charge a price that differs depending on the temperature? The initial idea was totally stupid and unworkable.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure we could reduce MPs expenses by £75m a year and they wouldn't notice it.

How? The expenses are whatever are incurred, as long as they are legal.

Are you suggesting they don't get paid legitimate expenses? Imagine your employer refusing to pay your expenses so you're out of pocket.

 

[SteveP29]

The opposition don't care about the country less than making the current government look bad; the same is true of all parties

Why should the opposition give details of what policies they'd implement?
The government would more than likely hijack them and use them for their own popularity.
The only time the opposition should state their policy is in their manifesto before a general or local elections
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If I run a hot food service I'd probably be annoyed that a rival business is able to undercut my prices by around 20%.

The undercut is actually only 16.6%
Apologies for being pedantic.
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why do we assume he was lying? We seem to expect MPs to be immaculate and 100% correct all the time, yet when they do slip up or get something so trivial wrong, we pounce on them like they've made a catastrophic error. The same with Gordon brown, when he wrote that letter to the woman whose son had been killed on duty in Iraq, and he spelt her name wrong or similar, and he got torn a new one over it - he's only human, why can't people realise mistakes happen?

Because for the most part, polititians will say and do just about anything that makes them look popular (or believe that they are popular, remember W. Hague's baseball cap and god knows how many pints every night episodes)

If Camoron saw an opportunity to be popularist by saying that he ate pasties etc, he would take it, regardless of the outcome.
Do you think Gideon knows what the inside of a Greggs even looks like, never mind actually bought a pasty in there?

 

[Schnellzug]

I'm not a fan of Cameron or the modern Tory Party, however it seems to me like the man can do no right. With regard to the Leeds station incident, if he's been all over the country, has as much personal interest in railways as any other non-enthusiasts, and is a very busy man, can't he be forgiven for the error? ?

Maybe he's angling as Portillo's replacement for the next season of GRJ, after the next election (or even before it, perhaps ... )

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If we're now talking, incidentally, about what it or isn't essential or a Luxury, based on how expensive it is, then heavens, rail travel must be the ultimate luxury, and so ought to be, by this
reasoning, taxed to the maximum, surely .....

And is buying a Pasty or a sandwich really "eating out", as if it's a three course dinner with a nice bottle of Chablis at Gordon Ramsey's place? Do people expect everyone to take little packed lunches in little plastic sandwich boxes whenever they set out on any journey, since it's such an extravagant luxury to buy a sandwich, sausage roll or bacon Bap?

 

[HST Power]

If I were a cynic I'd suggest that it was to deflect attention from bigger tax loopholes going unclosed for various reasons. After all we know the Trade Union movement provides funding to Labour but who funds the Conservatives?

We have donor clubs, mainly Party Patrons and Team 2 Thousand. I had a letter from my club last week which said in massive bold letters 'We rely on your donations, the Unions fund Labour!'

 

[GB]

How? The expenses are whatever are incurred, as long as they are legal.

Are you suggesting they don't get paid legitimate expenses? Imagine your employer refusing to pay your expenses so you're out of pocket.

Well it didn't work like that a couple of years ago.

 

[tbtc]

The undercut is actually only 16.6%
Apologies for being pedantic

You are (of course) right - I went back and amended my post to "around" once I'd started typing it, but I couldn't remember exactly how much the difference was (compared to the higher price)

If we're now talking, incidentally, about what it or isn't essential or a Luxury, based on how expensive it is, then heavens, rail travel must be the ultimate luxury, and so ought to be, by this
reasoning, taxed to the maximum, surely .....

And is buying a Pasty or a sandwich really "eating out", as if it's a three course dinner with a nice bottle of Chablis at Gordon Ramsey's place? Do people expect everyone to take little packed lunches in little plastic sandwich boxes whenever they set out on any journey, since it's such an extravagant luxury to buy a sandwich, sausage roll or bacon Bap?

I presume Mojo will want First Class travel to have VAT added to it, if a £1 pasty is a "luxury"?

 

[jon0844]

Well it didn't work like that a couple of years ago.

It did, but people were claiming for things they weren't allowed to - or making things up.

You can't just decide that to save money from today, you refuse to pay all expenses. I think someone would notice, and it would be totally out of order.

If my boss calls me tomorrow and tells me he wants me to go to a meeting in Scotland and to just book the next train - I could be £100+ out of pocket. Should I not be able to get a receipt and claim it back as an expense?

If I'm on a really high salary, does that make my claim on such an expense any less valid? Or if I'm an MP or banker? Does the actual job now make a difference?

Should the general public vote on who can claim expenses?

Now, if I claimed for a train ticket to Scotland but never went, I'd expect to be sacked or certainly given a formal warning. If I was in the public sector, you might well get annoyed too. If I made lots of false claims, I could potentially get done for fraud and jailed. And that's how it should be.

 

[GB]

No one has suggested completely removing all expenses. (I can see this going wildly off topic)

 

[Clip]

Do you reckon Greggs will reduce the prices now though? They went up considerably since this was announced..


Nah, didn think they would.

 

[LE Greys]

Personally, I think the government bottled out. How long have major sections of the media been pushing for a 'fat tax'? Well, this a partial fat tax, and they ran into opposition and ran out of bottle. Personally, I reckon they should have stuck it out, although I'd be concerned if it started pushing take-away food in the same direction as cigarettes and alcohol. Of course, there are people who hold the opposite view, and that's why politicians just can't win. Whatever they do someone is bound to oppose it because nothing is universally popular.

 

[jon0844]

No one has suggested completely removing all expenses. (I can see this going wildly off topic)

£75m was quite a bit to suggest though, although I don't know what the total expenses in any given year will be. But you're right, it's off topic.

 

[Clip]

Personally, I think the government bottled out. How long have major sections of the media been pushing for a 'fat tax'? Well, this a partial fat tax, and they ran into opposition and ran out of bottle. Personally, I reckon they should have stuck it out, although I'd be concerned if it started pushing take-away food in the same direction as cigarettes and alcohol. Of course, there are people who hold the opposite view, and that's why politicians just can't win. Whatever they do someone is bound to oppose it because nothing is universally popular.

I think this was their thinking. Normal take away food is VAT included. Why should Greggs or the like be any different.

 

[LE Greys]

I think this was their thinking. Normal take away food is VAT included. Why should Greggs or the like be any different.

I agree, fair playing field.

Although the fact that I prefer my sausage rolls oven-cooked or cold might have something to do with it.

 

[Greenback]

I really cannot agree with the notion that a pasty, which started life as easily carried food for miners, and is often found on a cold shelf in my local shop, could ever be described as a luxury item. Especially when my local bakery flogs corned beef pasties at £1.20 for two.

If a pasty is a luxury, what on earth does a £3 M&S salad bowl count as?

 

[tbtc]

Normal take away food is VAT included. Why should Greggs or the like be any different.

Hot food is VAT rated.

Cold food isn't VAT rated.

The question is what you do with food that was once hot but has now cooled down, hence the loophole - do you get a thermometer out every time something is sold?

 

[NIMBUS]

If a pasty is a luxury, what on earth does a £3 M&S salad bowl count as?

A bargain - the same thing will cost you £4 in an M&S Simply Food.

 

[Greenback]

A bargain - the same thing will cost you £4 in an M&S Simply Food.

This is Llanelli. Prices are lower due to it being a deprived area. To be a millionaire around here you only need to have £5k in the bank.

Mre Greenback says that is a bit harsh. Make it £5.5k.

 

[LE Greys]

Hot food is VAT rated.

Cold food isn't VAT rated.

The question is what you do with food that was once hot but has now cooled down, hence the loophole - do you get a thermometer out every time something is sold?

If you're my school's cook, heat it up again.
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I really cannot agree with the notion that a pasty, which started life as easily carried food for miners, and is often found on a cold shelf in my local shop, could ever be described as a luxury item. Especially when my local bakery flogs corned beef pasties at £1.20 for two.

If a pasty is a luxury, what on earth does a £3 M&S salad bowl count as?

Yes, but Greggs are more than just a grocer, they heat the food up for you as well. That's providing an additional service, and it's the service that's taxed. Since you're not billed separately, then they have to levy the tax on everything.

 

[142094]

How? The expenses are whatever are incurred, as long as they are legal.

Are you suggesting they don't get paid legitimate expenses? Imagine your employer refusing to pay your expenses so you're out of pocket.

The key difference is that it is the taxpayer who foots the bill for MPs expenses. MPs get a very good salary and no doubt could take a 'cut' of £75m without a great deal of hardship - plus this would go some way to showing to the general public 'we are all in it together'. Well at present, some of us are more 'in it' than others. Seems as if the expenses scandal had died down, until the Baroness Warsi story came up this week.

 

[LE Greys]

The key difference is that it is the taxpayer who foots the bill for MPs expenses. MPs get a very good salary and no doubt could take a 'cut' of £75m without a great deal of hardship - plus this would go some way to showing to the general public 'we are all in it together'. Well at present, some of us are more 'in it' than others. Seems as if the expenses scandal had died down, until the Baroness Warsi story came up this week.

According to the link below, a typical MP has a salary of about £65,000 a year. Now that's about the same as my father does, he's a consultant for BT. According to the other link below, the boss of BT has a salary of £921,000, a £1.344 million cash bonus, £220,000 of pension payments and £20,000 of “other” fees, total pay package £2.51 million.

And they say MPs are paid too much. :roll:

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/RP12-29

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/telecoms/9288620/BT-boss-Ian-Livingston-gives-up-salary-increase-to-send-signal-over-fat-cat-pay.html