Britain's Boring Preservation Movement

[theblackwatch]

Here's a snippet that I filmed on the Middleton railway. They have one carriage, which has an open verandah on one end of it. The missus and daughter have aquired a black and sooty face many times while passing through the tunnel and they love it ! Straight home for a wash afterwards though ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWqqmKCLBNs

The Middleton is a great little line, if anyone is in the area they have a Mixed Traffic gala this weekend (with freight and passenger stock in one train) - something a little bit different to normal!

 

[Welly]

Ravenglass & Eskdale railway is about 8 miles long in open coaches. It is a wonderful trip & I am told, but have not been able to get it confirmed, that no one has been injured from being in an open carriage since the 1920's opening.

My Dad and I rode in the very front of the open coach right behind the loco many years ago, it was brilliant - all the sounds from the loco and wheels! We did not get hurt at all but we got wet as the line is in the wettest part of England (we were the only ones in the open coach)

 

[markindurham]

Many of the Tanfield's coaches have open verandahs, iirc

 

[XDM]

I can't see what this theme park type vehicle you talk of would have to do with a railway preservation, or the objectives of Swanage or Bluebell? It sounds more like it would be suited near the NYMR, at Flamingoland.

The Bluebell is planning to build a housing estate on railside land it owns at West Hoathly station. Part of the charm of many preserved lines,& especially the Bluebell, is the beautiful rustic landscape passed through. I would much prefer that the Bluebell & other lines worried about being cash strapped tried new ways of attracting non enthusiast passengers rather than building suburbs.
The open coaches on the Ravenglass are immensely popular on the dry sunny days we visited & always filled up first. And down south, the isle of Purbeck is served by open top buses from Bournemouth with nobody on the lower deck when it is dry. Many of the passengers then make for the Swanage railway & would clearly enjoy an open top rail ride, with the chance of going into a closed carriage if it rains. Most visitors to heritage railways are not historical purists but non enthusiasts who want a fun day out in the country. Costing a few thousand a carriage, the open ones could be sheeted over at night to keep them dry, no shed needed. Anything that increases ridership advances the aims of preserving the track,stations & railway.

 

[muddythefish]

I suspect many volunteers, on which most preserved lines depend, would quit in disgust at the prospect of theme park-type open coaches. Imagine a Manor trundling down the SVR with those abominations instead of the railway's beautifully restored GWR stock?

Next.

 

[Busaholic]

At this time of year I see several open-top buses every day, not on sightseeing tours but ordinary bus routes. On a day like we've just had in West Cornwall I saw precisely no-one stupid enough to subject themselves to a prolonged soaking by sitting upstairs on a sodden seat, and at least one working was covered by a closed-topper. Takings would definitely be down compared to even a half-decent day, and I don't really see why that would be any different for a tourist railway.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I could certainly see there being some merit to having one or two open carriages in a set during nice weather, but it may be difficult to strike a balance between authenticity and pleasing the tourist crowd. I can certainly see the appeal of an open carriage behind a heritage diesel, even at just 25mph! Perhaps for steam you'd want at least one full height vehicle behind the loco, to block some of the soot...

If you were to choose a vehicle to convert, something akin to a VEP middle car would be ideal, unfortunately most of them are now baked-bean cans. The doors to every bay would give something similar to the open cars on Le Petit Train Jaune. Safety cases would be an issue though. You'd also have to remove the toilets, as I doubt anyone would fancy doing that al fresco!

 

[co-tr-paul]

Been saying this for years. We have "toastrack" coaches on narrow gauge and trams and even Bedford OB coaches so why not standard gauge heritage lines. Dont have to be bogie stock either. Prehaps convert a brake van as its veranda fitted so part way there ? Have a part finished 4 wheel coach in model form converted to toastrack for my layout.

 

[43021HST]

Why not just dump a load of seats on some conflats and cattle wagons. Open carriages although suitable for narrow gauge lines, do not recreate the steam age atmosphere that the majority of the punters want. Or even the protection from weather or soot and ash. I dread to think of at Mid Hants a nice string of MK1s and Bulleids passing at Medstead to a rake of toast racks.

What a ridiculous idea, it only works in America because they're fans of gaudy theme park unrealism, just look at their president.

I understand preserved railways aren't for everyone, but why do we have to degrade them to theme parks to bring in the punters.

 

[Waldgrun]

Open toastrack and semi open toastrach coaches where used on the Corringham Light railway in Essex, perhaps kimflop should start a group to recreate these vehicles!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thurrockcouncil/32431382751

 

[broadgage]

Beat me to it! How does cutting holes in a historic vehicle represent "preservation"?

I would be opposed to mutilating anything rare or unusual, but in the case of plentiful types of coach I see no harm.
Pity to damage a well restored/well preserved example, but something that is otherwise destined for the scrap yard, why not ?

Or of course, perhaps something SLIGHTLY more modern could be modified to an open coach. Pacers anyone ?

Not everyone would want to ride in an open coach, but two such per train on some heritage lines might be welcome. One next to the engine and the other at the back.

 

[edwin_m]

Mk2 and Mk3 coaches are monocoque structures so unlikely they could be modified to be open-topped. And with DMUs there is the problem of the exhaust, both where to put the pipe and whether people would want to be doused with clag at short range. So it may be a Mk1 or nothing if anyone wants an open-top coach.

 

[Dr_Paul]

... try the Welsh Highland Railway...

I would certainly like to travel the Welsh Highland in an open goods wagon, so long as the weather was suitably dry. Many years back on a sunny summer evening, I and the other members of a PW gang travelled the whole length of the Ffestiniog up to Blaenau Ffestiniog in Hudson four-wheel wagons, a wonderful journey.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mk2 and Mk3 coaches are monocoque structures so unlikely they could be modified to be open-topped. And with DMUs there is the problem of the exhaust, both where to put the pipe and whether people would want to be doused with clag at short range. So it may be a Mk1 or nothing if anyone wants an open-top coach.

I'd imagine if you were converting a DMU you'd be using it as hauled stock. May as well remove the engines, exhausts, etc.

Of course that wouldn't be easy: Take a 142, remove the engines, fuel tanks, toilet, water tank, cab desks, cab walls, doors, seats, interior panels, lighting and wiring. Remove the glass and chop everything off from level with the bottom of the windows. Remove the coupler and work out a solution to allow haulage by steam and/or heritage diesel with adequate braking provision. Now, the doors: good luck with that part, too!

It wouldn't be easy, but little is on the heritage scene!

 

[GusB]

I'd imagine if you were converting a DMU you'd be using it as hauled stock. May as well remove the engines, exhausts, etc.

Of course that wouldn't be easy: Take a 142, remove the engines, fuel tanks, toilet, water tank, cab desks, cab walls, doors, seats, interior panels, lighting and wiring. Remove the glass and chop everything off from level with the bottom of the windows. Remove the coupler and work out a solution to allow haulage by steam and/or heritage diesel with adequate braking provision. Now, the doors: good luck with that part, too!

It wouldn't be easy, but little is on the heritage scene!

While I do like your idea of slowly pulling a 142 apart (just don't stop!), your idea wouldn't work. The Leyland National body relies on the pillars between the windows and the connecting "roof-sticks" for structural integrity.

 

[shodkini]

One advantage of the open sided coaches used on the WHR and Ffestiniog is that they make it much easier to take photographs from the train - their older closed coaches have full drop windows above each table, so you can get reasonable photos with a bit of stretching, but they seem to have run out of the BR pattern full drop windows, and newer/rebuilt coaches on both railways have sealed windows. The balcony coaches on the WLLR, both 'original' and ex Zillertahlbahn are good for photographers too.

 

[plannerman]

I once had a very interesting conversation with the MD of the Ffestiniog - his view was that they had to decide between being a 'preserved' railway or a tourist business, and the two were mutually exclusive. This decision had to be made because of a shortage of rolling stock, and they had to decide whether to source and rescue some wrecks or build new, and they built new.

 

[Flying Phil]

I think it is a very difficult balance between "preservation" and "attraction", without the revenue it is difficult to do any business. Donations/gifts/legacies will not usually be sufficient so the railway needs to be popular with a wide audience. If there is a demand for the odd "Open" type vehicle and a Mk1 is being scrapped due to a totally shot bodyshell, then why not reconfigure it and use/feature it for odd sunny days?

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder if any of our soon to be defunct 142's could be rebuilt as open stock ?

 

[xotGD]

I wonder if any of our soon to be defunct 142's could be rebuilt as open stock ?

Strapping a couple of park benches to a freightliner flat would make for a more pleasant journey.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I once had a very interesting conversation with the MD of the Ffestiniog - his view was that they had to decide between being a 'preserved' railway or a tourist business, and the two were mutually exclusive. This decision had to be made because of a shortage of rolling stock, and they had to decide whether to source and rescue some wrecks or build new, and they built new.

There usually are a couple of old carriages on Ffestiniog Railway trains, so that those of us who like that aspect of the railway can have an interesting bumpy journey. The compartment stock is very nicely turned out, especially the first-class compartments (it's worth getting an upgrade on one's member's ticket). I suspect that the majority of the people on coach parties who visit the line would prefer a modern carriage with a smooth ride, comfortable seats, a better view through the windows and a trolley refreshment service. So both sets of passengers get what they like.

The Talyllyn Railway, on the other hand, rarely gets coachloads of passengers, and seems to attract those people who like to ride in carriages out of the Victorian era. Maybe it's just me, but there's nothing quite like travelling through the Welsh countryside on a wooden seat in an ancient four-wheel carriage.

 

[Flying Phil]

Incidentally.... I definitely do NOT think that the UK preservation movement is boring. In fact there are more varied locomotives steam and diesel, gauges, coaches, goods stock, buildings, new builds and events than ever before - and long may that continue.

 

[reddragon]

Didn't Top Gear have a solution a few years back?

Caravans & open top sports trains hauled by cars on the GC?

 

[Calthrop]

The Talyllyn Railway, on the other hand, rarely gets coachloads of passengers, and seems to attract those people who like to ride in carriages out of the Victorian era. Maybe it's just me, but there's nothing quite like travelling through the Welsh countryside on a wooden seat in an ancient four-wheel carriage.

This brings to mind -- obliquely -- the late John Snell's reminiscence of a journey of his on the Talyllyn in 1947: near the end of the pre-preservation era, when everything to do with the line was highly run-down.

"We thumped our way along a muddy footpath, all scenery quite invisible behind the rank hedges, a sort of rural tube railway. Brambles and gorse scratched along the footboards and nodded in at the windows. We were moving at about ten miles an hour and, even at that speed, the ride was appalling. From time to time the coach lurched drunkenly to one side, listing for what seemed an age before it recovered. More often we crashed down into a pothole and bounced out again, coach and occupants alike sore and creaking. All the time, we rattled and shook as the flat spots in the tired old wheels slapped round and round. The seats were bare boards, there was no leg-room, it felt as though we were in a Wild West stagecoach being pursued across country by outlaws. It was all rather enjoyable."

Absolutely no practical prospect of an experience like this, being recreated under preservation -- even if the idea might be momentarily tempting !

 

[bramling]

There usually are a couple of old carriages on Ffestiniog Railway trains, so that those of us who like that aspect of the railway can have an interesting bumpy journey. The compartment stock is very nicely turned out, especially the first-class compartments (it's worth getting an upgrade on one's member's ticket). I suspect that the majority of the people on coach parties who visit the line would prefer a modern carriage with a smooth ride, comfortable seats, a better view through the windows and a trolley refreshment service. So both sets of passengers get what they like.

The Talyllyn Railway, on the other hand, rarely gets coachloads of passengers, and seems to attract those people who like to ride in carriages out of the Victorian era. Maybe it's just me, but there's nothing quite like travelling through the Welsh countryside on a wooden seat in an ancient four-wheel carriage.

I've seen a lot of moaning on the Ffestiniog when space runs out and people end up in the older carriages, especially the old women.

Don't really understand it - the first class compartments are lovely in my opinion, and I've had some superb journeys in them. Avoids any issues with oldies meaning about windows being open too.

 

[squizzler]

I wonder if any of our soon to be defunct 142's could be rebuilt as open stock ?

Another stock idea might be to create the rail equivalent of the so-called "targa top" with plastic removable panels on a metal frame. Class 442 convertible anyone?

 

[Jordeh]

I suspect many volunteers, on which most preserved lines depend, would quit in disgust at the prospect of theme park-type open coaches. Imagine a Manor trundling down the SVR with those abominations instead of the railway's beautifully restored GWR stock?

Next.

Why not just dump a load of seats on some conflats and cattle wagons. Open carriages although suitable for narrow gauge lines, do not recreate the steam age atmosphere that the majority of the punters want. Or even the protection from weather or soot and ash. I dread to think of at Mid Hants a nice string of MK1s and Bulleids passing at Medstead to a rake of toast racks.

What a ridiculous idea, it only works in America because they're fans of gaudy theme park unrealism, just look at their president.

I understand preserved railways aren't for everyone, but why do we have to degrade them to theme parks to bring in the punters.

Isn't a Day out with Thomas operated by some preserved railways, an good example of them catering to the crowds for revenue rather than purists? Do the volunteers strike on the days they're operated?

Classic over-reaction to an idea to increase revenue.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This brings to mind -- obliquely -- the late John Snell's reminiscence of a journey of his on the Talyllyn in 1947: near the end of the pre-preservation era, when everything to do with the line was highly run-down.

"We thumped our way along a muddy footpath, all scenery quite invisible behind the rank hedges, a sort of rural tube railway. Brambles and gorse scratched along the footboards and nodded in at the windows. We were moving at about ten miles an hour and, even at that speed, the ride was appalling. From time to time the coach lurched drunkenly to one side, listing for what seemed an age before it recovered. More often we crashed down into a pothole and bounced out again, coach and occupants alike sore and creaking. All the time, we rattled and shook as the flat spots in the tired old wheels slapped round and round. The seats were bare boards, there was no leg-room, it felt as though we were in a Wild West stagecoach being pursued across country by outlaws. It was all rather enjoyable."

Absolutely no practical prospect of an experience like this, being recreated under preservation -- even if the idea might be momentarily tempting !

To recreate that experience today, just take a Pacer ride on the Bentham line...!

 

[StephenHunter]

I wonder if any of our soon to be defunct 142's could be rebuilt as open stock ?

A bouncy castle is cheaper.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Well I know of open top Transits, Merc Sprinters and Bristol REs but not yet of an open top Leyland National !!